R1* history, put together by me!

[Aberdeen]

The thing is, Hurrians had allot of Indo European traditions and if one thing I have learned, it is when linguists classify a language as isolated it could very simply mean that they haven't yet identified it.

Other than that I don't believe that the Medes-Mitanni connection and Umman Manda is connected to Hurrians but that this land, where Hurrians resided too, was populated by Indo European tribes.

As I said I remember sources saying that the Medes were basically descend from the Medes.

You probably misunderstood something. That Umman Manda was located in between Central Anatolia and Babylon (South Mesopotamia) doesn't mean proto Indo Europeans had to have come from there too. Just that this area was a of importance for the Near Eastern Indo European groups. Also the "Anatolian hypothesis" places the origin of Indo European in West_Central Anatolia. While Umman Manda was Central Anatolia to South Mesopotamia.

No, I didn't misunderstand anything. I just don't see the logic of arguing that there were IE speakers anywhere other than the steppes (or possibly the north Caucasus) prior to the bronze age IE expansion. I think any IE languages south of the Black Sea arrived there after the bronze age IE expansion and underwent structural changes because of interactions with other linguistic groups. But if you and Goga don't agree with me, I'm fine with that.

 

[Goga]

I think any IE languages south of the Black Sea arrived there after the bronze age IE expansion and underwent structural changes because of interactions with other linguistic groups.

But my friend, the Bronze Age kicked off in the south of the Black/Caspian Sea, not north of it, about 6,000 years ago..

But then again it is offtopic and has nothing to do with 'R1*', or at least the 'first wave' migration toward Central Asia. Maybe it has something to do with the 'second wave' of R1(b) into Europe...

 

[Aberdeen]

But my friend, the Bronze Age kicked off in the south of the Black/Caspian Sea, not north of it, about 6,000 years ago..

But then again it is offtopic and has nothing to do with 'R1*', or at least the 'first wave' migration toward Central Asia. Maybe it has something to do with the 'second wave' of R1(b) into Europe...

I think it would be easier for me to understand what you're saying if you didn't mix up vastly different time periods. And it isn't a case of who was the first to create bronze. To me, when we're talking about the IE language group, it's a case of trying to understand where it started from. To say that you think R* was in Anatolia 25,000 years ago doesn't tell us anything about when or where certain linguistic groups started from, even if your assumptions about really ancient R1b in Anatolia are correct. And, so far, the oldest R* we've got is from Siberia. Yes, that could be an outlier, but at the moment it's the only evidence we've got about ancient R, and it was found in Siberia.

 

[Goga]

And, so far, the oldest R* we've got is from Siberia. Yes, that could be an outlier, but at the moment it's the only evidence we've got about ancient R, and it was found in Siberia.

Bronze Age began with the Sumerians. Sumerians were the first and I can't think of any other ancient advanced culture before the Sumerian that could have revolutionized the Bronze Age. And let say that R* is from Siberia/Central Asia, how much time is there between R* and R1*. I'm sure in those thousands of years there was a moment that R* from Cenral Asia migrated directly into the Iranian Plateau and evolved into R1*. Norheastern part of the Iranian Plateau is practically Central Asia, and there is a Central Asian corridor between Central Asia and the Iranian Plateu.


And did you know that the first ever known indiviual to be called a Mede by Assyrians was called by the name ' Hanasiruka '. And it seems that his name is not of known Indo-European origin and currently cannot be safely attributed to any known language. Sounds to me like a name of the Kasites.

I've got this info from here : http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1681-quot-An-Assyrian-View-on-the-Medes-quot


Page 37-64 of this book : https://www.academia.edu/441280/200...ient_Near_East_Monographs_5_Padova_2003_37-64

 

[Aberdeen]

Goga, since I can't understand what arguments you're trying to make, I'm probably going to give up on this discussion. IMO, the beginning of the Bronze Age in Sumeria has nothing to do with the evolution of R* or R1*. Perhaps we can agree that the Bronze Age reached different parts of Eurasia at different times, and that how the locals responded to such a change varied from place to place. However, IMO, the Indo-Iranic folk who descended on Iran from the north about 3500 years ago spoke an Indo-Iranic language and their predominant Y haplotype was probably R1a - it happened long after R1a and R1b developed. And who the Medes became as they mixed with other folk over the succeeding centuries is irrelevant, IMO. If you want to argue that R1b somehow originated in Anatolia, fine, present some arguments, but that doesn't prove anything about what language they spoke originally. If you want to argue that the IE language and culture originated in Anatolia on the basis that the IE languages in Anatolia seem to be older than Indo-Iranian, fine. I don't think that proves what some people think it proves, but whatever. I just don't see any point in jumbling together unrelated issues or different time periods.

 

[LeBrok]

I just don't see any point in jumbling together unrelated issues or different time periods.

It is interesting that this "Temporal Scale Recognition Syndrome" happens way too often, at least to my liking. If there are no records between two already attested historical events, it feels for some, that nothing interesting could have happened in between,( what between?). Analogous to thinking that if we are not in the forest the trees fall without a sound, or they don't fall at all.

 

[Goga]

Goga, since I can't understand what arguments you're trying to make,

Read my first post. That R1* is from the Middle East and not Central Asia. I thought I was clear.

I'm probably going to give up on this discussion. IMO, the beginning of the Bronze Age in Sumeria has nothing to do with the evolution of R* or R1*.

You brought the Bronze Age into disussion, NOT me. And made it more complicated and created confusion.

who the Medes became as they mixed with other folk over the succeeding centuries is irrelevant, IMO.

This is what you wrote earlier : "there's plenty of archeological evidence that the Medes and Persians invaded what is now Iran from the steppes".
I was just showing you that you were wrong about the Medes and that the Medes were actually the natives to their lands. The Medes NEVER invaded Zagros Montains, they were NATIVE to Zagros Mountains. The Medes ARE Zagros Mountains!


And now you're blamig me for creating confusion? Is this a bad joke, or what?

 

[Alan]

No, I didn't misunderstand anything. I just don't see the logic of arguing that there were IE speakers anywhere other than the steppes (or possibly the north Caucasus) prior to the bronze age IE expansion. I think any IE languages south of the Black Sea arrived there after the bronze age IE expansion and underwent structural changes because of interactions with other linguistic groups. But if you and Goga don't agree with me, I'm fine with that.

Aberdeen, I don't know about Goga but I wasn't even arguing about an Indo European presence in Western Asia prior to bronze age. The only point I tried to make was that Medes likely descend from Mitanni and that "Umman Manda" played a central role for Near Eastern Indo Europeans.

I didn't said a word about that Proto Indo Europeans formed in the Near East or the Steppes. That isn't what I am arguing about. I simply stated that I doubt that a second Indo_Iranian wave took place.

 

[Alan]

Read my first post. That R1* is from the Middle East and not Central Asia. I thought I was clear.

We don't know where exactly R1* formed. But currently Central Asia looks allot more likely.

 

[Goga]

Aberdeen, I don't know about Goga but I wasn't even arguing about an Indo European presence in Western Asia prior to bronze age. ...

... I didn't said a word about that Proto Indo Europeans formed in the Near East or the Steppes. ...

Me neither. In my initial post Í was talking about halgogoup R1* and not about languages at all.


Damn, some folks are really suffering delusional paranoia! But never mind that this thread is already destroyed by off topic nonsense!

 

[Goga]

We don't know where exactly R1* formed. But currently Central Asia looks allot more likely.

But according to 23andme website it is from the Middle East.

And are we 100% sure that R1* is from Central Asia? Because I believe that R1* gave birth both to 'Gedrosia' and to 'North_European' components thousands of years (at least 15,000) ago as I described earlier. Gedrosia is a little bit mixed with Mongloid, while native North_European component is mixed with a little bit Mongoloid and more with Gedrosia.

 

[Alan]

Me neither. In my initial post Í was talking about halgogoup R1* and not about languges at all.


Damn, some folks are really suffering delusional paranoia! But never mind that this thread is already destroyed by off topic nonsense!

Heval Goga
I think you should be a bit more calm and watch out who you call delusional or paranoid. I perceive Aberdeen to be very Objective so far.

 

[Sile]

Read my first post. That R1* is from the Middle East and not Central Asia. I thought I was clear.

You brought the Bronze Age into disussion, NOT me. And made it more complicated and created confusion.

This is what you wrote earlier : "there's plenty of archeological evidence that the Medes and Persians invaded what is now Iran from the steppes".
I was just showing you that you were wrong about the Medes and that the Medes were actually the natives to their lands. The Medes NEVER invaded Zagros Montains, they were NATIVE to Zagros Mountains. The Medes ARE Zagros Mountains!


And now you're blamig me for creating confusion? Is this a bad joke, or what?

medes from Zargos mountains...yes agree:grin:
Sigynnae are medes .....yes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigynnae
:startled:
starting to come together:heart:

 

[Goga]

Heval Goga
I think you should be a bit more calm and watch out who you call delusional or paranoid. I perceive Aberdeen to be very Objective so far.

I'm sorry if I offended somebody, but it was not me who started talking about proto-Iranians, Bronze Age and PIE theories, while I was only talking about R1* of at least 15,000 years old, lol!

 

[Goga]

medes from Zargos mountains...yes agree:grin:
Sigynnae are medes .....yes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigynnae
:startled:
starting to come together:heart:

Of course the Medes came from the Zagros (from where else?) and stayed in Zagros!

Sigynnae are Gypsies, right? Gypsies are from EVERYWHERE!

 

[Aberdeen]

Heval Goga
I think you should be a bit more calm and watch out who you call delusional or paranoid. I perceive Aberdeen to be very Objective so far.

Thanks, Alan. But I can see that Goga is quite emotionally invested in his views, so I'm not going to get upset about what he called me. Especially since I apparently misunderstood what he was initially trying to explain. Apparently that map of his with a big arrow and the reference to the diffusion of early IE dialects wasn't actually about IE language at all - it was just a continuation of his view on where R* evolved. And although I intend to treat Mal'ta Boy as an indication rather than an outlier where R* is concerned, it may be a bit reckless to make such an assumption on the basis of one find. And I'm not saying R* arose in Siberia - I believe a lot of folks who know something about the subject think that Central Asia is the probable place of origin for R*. But I don't think anyone (except perhaps Goga) would say that we know for sure where R* arose. And he's entitled to his views. I was just having a bit of trouble deciding which issues and time periods he was and wasn't trying to discuss.

 

[Alan]

Of course the Medes came from the Zagros (from where else?) and stayed in Zagros!

Sigynnae are Gypsies, right? Gypsies are from EVERYWHERE!

Sigynnae has nothing to do with Cingena. Romas originated somewhere in India and than spread throughout the world.

Their horses (or rather, ponies) were small and flat-nosed with shaggy long hair, five fingers in length. They were not strong enough to bear men on their backs, but when yoked to chariots, they were among the swiftest known, which is the reason why the people of that country preferred that mode of transportation. The people themselves wore a Medic costume, and, according to their own account, were colonists from Media, a claim regarded as doubtful by Herodotus. In Apollonius Rhodius (iv. 320) they inhabit the shores of the Euxine, not far from the mouth of the Danube, while Strabo (xi. p. 520), also speaking of their ponies, and attributing to them Persian customs, places them near the Caspian. They could indeed have been a part of the Iranian expansion, together with the Scythians and Sarmatians migrating west into the Ukraine in the early Iron Age context of the "Thraco-Cimmerian" migrations.

I don't know what modern scientists or even Herodotus claim (though I think he is a reliable source), but if the people clearly considered themselves as colonists from Media and even wore Medic customs.... well.

 

[Goga]

Once again, I'm discussing R1* here and not R*.

R* is the ancestor to R1* and R2*. It's possible that R2 arose somewhere in Central Asia, I don't argue this. While I'm suggesting that R1* arose in the Middle East!


Do not derail this thread and don’t put it into the wrong direction.

 

[Alan]

Thanks, Alan. But I can see that Goga is quite emotionally invested in his views, so I'm not going to get upset about what he called me. Especially since I apparently misunderstood what he was initially trying to explain. Apparently that map of his with a big arrow and the reference to the diffusion of early IE dialects wasn't actually about IE language at all - it was just a continuation of his view on where R* evolved. And although I intend to treat Mal'ta Boy as an indication rather than an outlier where R* is concerned, it may be a bit reckless to make such an assumption on the basis of one find. And I'm not saying R* arose in Siberia - I believe a lot of folks who know something about the subject think that Central Asia is the probable place of origin for R*. But I don't think anyone (except perhaps Goga) would say that we know for sure where R* arose. And he's entitled to his views. I was just having a bit of trouble deciding which issues and time periods he was and wasn't trying to discuss.

I still believe Mal'ta boy was more like a traveler and his origin was slightly more West. It is still not a 100% sure where R* developed considering the surprises we had so far. I would be rather careful with making clear statements about it.

 

[Goga]

Sigynnae has nothing to do with Cingena. Romas originated somewhere in India and than spread throughout the world.



I don't know what modern scientists or even Herodotus claim (though I think he is a reliable source), but if the people clearly considered themselves as colonists from Media and even wore Medic customs.... well.

Russians call Gypsies 'Tsigane' or 'Cigane' (Цыгане). Sigynnae and Cigane sound the same...