R1* history, put together by me!

Once again, I'm discussing R1* here and not R*.

R* is the ancestor to R1* and R2*. It's possible that R2 arose somewhere in Central Asia, while I'm suggesting that R1* arose in the Middle East!


Do not derail this thread and don’t put it into the wrong direction.

Mate just read Aberdeens post I think this time it's you who didin't quite understand his post. He recognized that he misunderstood you and now knows that you are arguing about the origin of R*.
 
Russians call Gypsies 'Tsigane' or 'Cigane' (Цыгане). Sigynnae and Cigane sound the same...

Heval, Ayran (dew in Kurdish) means in Turkish salty Joghurt drink and has absolutely nothing to do with Aryan. And the Romans Romas too. You are making connection based on small word similarities. And comparing this to Sigynnae and Cigane... there is a world difference between them. How do you even come to the conclusion that they sound similar. Considering that they don't call themselves Cigane but Roma and that the Term Cigane is a misinterpretation by Balkanians who thought they were Egyptian immigrants. Gypsie stems from the word Egypt.
 
Mate just read Aberdeens post I think this time it's you who didin't quite understand his post. He recognized that he misunderstood you and now knows that you are arguing about the origin of R*.
I'm not arguing about the origin of R*, I'm arguing about te origin of R1* (R one *) !
 
I'm not arguing about the origin of R*, I'm arguing about te origin of R1* (R one *) !

Ok my fault. But he didn't actually said any word about R1* or made any claims about it so no need to get heated.
 
I'm not arguing about the origin of R*, I'm arguing about te origin of R1* (R one *) !

So you just want to discuss R1*? Well, I personally think there's a good chance that R1* could have developed on the Iranian Plateau or in the Caucasus - some place that would easily explain R1b migrating to Anatolia while its sibling subclade R1a migrated to the Ukraine and the forests of Russia. But I think that's very speculative, and when we finally get some old Y-DNA samples, I could be proven wrong.
 
So you just want to discuss R1*? Well, I personally think there's a good chance that R1* could have developed on the Iranian Plateau or in the Caucasus - some place that would easily explain R1b migrating to Anatolia while its sibling subclade R1a migrated to the Ukraine and the forests of Russia. But I think that's very speculative, and when we finally get some old Y-DNA samples, I could be proven wrong.
Ok, then. Thanks!

Like Maciamo pointed out R1b is originally from southeast of the Caspian Sea, near Turkmenistan. R1b went the southern route, while R1a* migrated into the Eastern Europe from Central Asia and went the northern route, north of the Caspian Sea, at least 15,000 years ago!


So, I don't think that R1* (R one *) is from Siberia or Altai, like that MA1 boy.
 
Of course the Medes came from the Zagros (from where else?) and stayed in Zagros!

Sigynnae are Gypsies, right? Gypsies are from EVERYWHERE!

no, Sigynnae are Medes due to dress and customs and migrated to pannonia.............but they could have been the Thracian tribe Maedi as they also migrated to Pannonia ( modern Hungary )

If Medes are R1 as I suspect with other ydna ( as per normal migrations) as well. Then we can easily check if central european R1 is the same as medes R1 ..............who are the medes now,?...azeri?
 
no, Sigynnae are Medes due to dress and customs and migrated to pannonia.............but they could have been the Thracian tribe Maedi as they also migrated to Pannonia ( modern Hungary )

If Medes are R1 as I suspect with other ydna ( as per normal migrations) as well. Then we can easily check if central european R1 is the same as medes R1 ..............who are the medes now,?...azeri?

Explained here.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26314-Haplogroup-T?p=417859&viewfull=1#post417859

and here http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...circa-3100-BCE?p=423166&viewfull=1#post423166


see here, on the right corner under Iranian languages.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/IndoEuropeanTree.svg

"Kurdish", Zaza-Gorani are languages or dialects spoken by Kurds. The only group listed under Medes->Parthians which is non Kurdish are the Baloch. But than even the Baloch claim to have Kurdish origin and have settled in Baluchistan thousand of years ago.

A Good proof for this thesis is that the Baloch speak a language similar to Kurdish and not Pashtun or other surrounding populations and they have typical Kurdish tribes among them.

Like on of them which is basically called Kurd.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd_(Baloch_tribe)

Kurd (Urdu: کرد‎) is a Baloch tribe in the Balochistan, Sindh, and Punjab provinces of Pakistan. Kurds speak both Balochi and Brahui Also a Sub-clan in Mazari tribe. famous for their gallantry against bugti's. Qadoo khan Kurd was Commander who destroyed Siyah-aff or dera bugti with mazari raiders.
Famous people who descend from this tribe are Baloch nationalist leader Mir Abdul Aziz Kurd , prominent lawyer Mir Ali Ahmad Kurd and a bureaucrat Mir Ali Gul Kurd.


or the Badini tribe is a Kurdish tribe too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badini


Kurdish groups make up the majority of the descend of Medes. The Kurdish groups among Northwest Iranian languages is so dominant that scientist often tend to call Northwest Iranian (Medic and Parthian) basically "Kurdic". Azeris are basically Turkified Kurds like Shah Ismail.
 
By the way Sile since you mentioned Hungary. Did you know

Kurd is a village in Tolna County, Hungary.
Kurdish participation in the Ottoman administration in Hungary can be detected in two sorts of references: political and military figures whose Kurdish descent is known and people bearing the name of Kurd/Kurt/Kurth who might or might not have been ethnic Kurds.
A major literary monument of the nineteenth-century Hungary directly mentions the Kurds within the Ottoman context. Géza Gárdonyi (1863–1922) was one of the writers who contributed to what Anderson described as 'awakening from sleep', or the intellectual attempts to look for historical and linguistic definitions to assert Hungarian identity. He involved the Kurds as heroes of his famous novel Egri Csillagok (Stars over Eger).
The sources in general indicate on two sorts of Kurdish references: political and military figures whose Kurdish origin is beyond any doubt and people bearing the name of Kurd, Kurt or Kurth who might have been ethnic Kurds.
Thus, one cannot claim with certainty that the village of Kurd in Southern Hungary is bound to Kurd Pasha, a legendary military chief whose grave is located nearby. Yet, the fact that the residents of Kurd are interested in Kurdish affairs deserves to be highlighted. The name appears as Kurtu in the taxation letter of Dömösi and is to be found in similar forms later on. In 1542, the village belonged to Kaposment, but in 1543 a big portion of the population left it. In 1559-1560 a part of the residents came back. The rest, who moved to other places, kept their family names as Kurdi, and now one of the well-known Hungarian writers bears the name Imre Kurdi.
In 1730, decades after the Ottoman withdrawal from Hungary, the name Kurd were to be found in a source indicating on neopopulata possessio Kurd. But starting from 1729, new migrants came from central Hungary and were mostly of Slavic, Serbian and Slovak, as well as Magyar ethnic background. Since the midst of the eighteenth century and until the end of the World War II, the majority of the population were the Rheinland Germans, At present it is mixed: German, Hungarian and Gypsy. Yet, all of the 2000 residents proudly refer to themselves as Kurdi, a local patriotic definition which has lost any connotation with the legendary Kurd Pasha.
Another exempel can be: Yet, the most direct hint on the Kurdish factor in Hungary is the village of Kurd in Tolna county. The village and its mayor, Mr. István Cser and other residents came to the following conclusion: even if the name proves not to be a derivation from the ethnonym, the very possibility, in popular mind, of such a link is remarkable. Even more intriguing were the words of the local school-teacher Mrs. Ilona Tarr who in a private conversation reflected on the Abdullah Ocalan abduction scandal: "Though we are not Kurds – just the residents of the village of Kurd – we have been following the Ocalan affair. We took it personally, God knows why!"
After approximately 200 years of residency, Kurd's ethnic German Danube Swabian population was dispossessed of its property and forcibly removed to Germany following the end of World War II.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd,_Hungary

I don't remember who exactly but there was a Hungarian minister who said to Barzani, during a visit in Hungary, that his ancestors were Kurds who came during the Ottoman Empire. Many people believe that the Ottomans who marshed through Europe were Turks but in fact There are allot of Kurdish presence from Greece all the way into Hungary and from Istanbul to Egypt and Yemen.


Since I have started this I will add another one. Recently a book was published in Egypt with the title "Kurds in Egypt throughout the history."

It states that Muhammad Ali Dynasty of Egypt and Sudan is a Kurd not "turk". He is originally from Dyarbakir and not albanian.

Basically, Muhammad Ali Dynasty of Egypt and Sudan is the founder of modern Egypt and its ruler between 1805 to 1848.

"At the age of thirty was Muhammad Ali in the armies mobilized by the Porte in the Ottoman Empire to attack the French army led by Napoleon Bonaparte occupied Egypt between the year 1798 - 1801, before moving Muhammad Ali to Egypt entirely a facilitator Prime battalion "as saying that" with the army that came to evacuate the French from Egypt, and after the departure of the French ascended Muhammad Ali as "Bkbai" that he was appointed ruler of Egypt in 1805 and then established the military school in Egypt, and the numbers a strong army, as established Dar military industry, having relied on the commanders and soldiers of the Kurds in installing his due sincerity Kurd who was one of them because the roots of the "Diyarbakir" because of the military skills enjoyed by the Kurds during the wars they have fought against the French and the English."


This is the book.
1023_1.jpg


Allot of famous Kurdish personalities have been "sucked up" by Arabs, Turks and Persians because of the lack of interest or because they have lived among them.
 
Explained here.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26314-Haplogroup-T?p=417859&viewfull=1#post417859

and here http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...circa-3100-BCE?p=423166&viewfull=1#post423166


see here, on the right corner under Iranian languages.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/IndoEuropeanTree.svg

"Kurdish", Zaza-Gorani are languages or dialects spoken by Kurds. The only group listed under Medes->Parthians which is non Kurdish are the Baloch. But than even the Baloch claim to have Kurdish origin and have settled in Baluchistan thousand of years ago.

A Good proof for this thesis is that the Baloch speak a language similar to Kurdish and not Pashtun or other surrounding populations and they have typical Kurdish tribes among them.

Like on of them which is basically called Kurd.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd_(Baloch_tribe)




or the Badini tribe is a Kurdish tribe too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badini


Kurdish groups make up the majority of the descend of Medes. The Kurdish groups among Northwest Iranian languages is so dominant that scientist often tend to call Northwest Iranian (Medic and Parthian) basically "Kurdic". Azeris are basically Turkified Kurds like Shah Ismail.

The budini of herodous would not be the same badini .............i am unsure.........migrations are strange
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budini

- so medes would encompass, parthian, bactrians and turkmenistans, yes or no?
 
The budini of herodous would not be the same badini .............i am unsure.........migrations are strange
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budini

- so medes would encompass, parthian, bactrians and turkmenistans, yes or no?


I thought about this too long time ago and it makes sense if you read the two posts I made. the Medes were more of confederation of several (mostly Iranic) tribes. Similar to how the structure among Kurds was in the past (and still there are signs of this). The Badini Kurds in iraqi Kurdistan might have been the Budinis of Heredotus which had became part of the Medic confederation.

And as such they became mostly Kurds and as Kurds they moved into modern Baluchistan and became Baluch too.

Medes were not Parthians but Parthians were Medes who had additional Scythian admixture. In other words Parthians were the successors of the Medes and the Kurds are the successors of the Parthians.

If you look at the links I provided there are all the sources for that.


Surena the famous Parthian General who had beaten Crassus. Here is a description of him.

Plutarch also described him as "the tallest and finest looking man himself, but the delicacy of his looks and effeminacy of his dress did not promise so much manhood as he really was master of; or his face was painted, and his hair parted after the fashion of the Medes."[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surena

Parthians were Medes. Bactrians were something different.
 
Sile read this here and you will likely understand what I mean.

http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/Parthian.html
[SIZE=+3]A Roman description of the Parthians or later Persians from Justin's History of the World[/SIZE]

II. The government of the nation, after their revolt from the Macedonian power, was in the hands of kings. Next to the royal authority is the order of the people,[3] from which they take generals in war and magistrates in peace. Their language is something between those of the Scythians and Medes, being a compound of both. Their dress was formerly of a fashion peculiar to themselves; afterwards, when their power had increased, it was like that of the Medes, light and full flowing. The fashion of their arms is that of their own country and of Scythia.[4] They have an army, not like other nations, of free men, but chiefly consisting of slaves, the members of whom daily increase, the power of manumission being allowed to none, and all their offspring, in consequence, being born slaves. These bondmen they bring up as carefully as their own children, and teach them, with great pains, the arts of riding and shooting with the bow. As any one is eminent in wealth, so he furnishes the king with a proportionate number of horsemen for war. Indeed when fifty thousand cavalry encountered Antony, as he was making war upon Parthia, only four hundred of them were free men.


An people in Northeast Iran known as Parni started the uprising against the Seleucids. These Parni were Scythian and they were the once forming the first phase of the new Empire. However the majority of the people compromising in this new Empire were actually Medes and it didn't took too long that the Medic language and culture dominated. And so the Parthians formed.
The Parni, a Scythian tribe started all this, but the people known in historic books as "Parthians" who fought against the Romans were basically Medes for most and spoke some kind of Medic dialect.

Parthians = Medes with additional Scythian admixture (early Elite).
 
IMO, it's really important to specify what time frame you're talking about when discussing the genetics, language or culture of certain groups, and that's particularly true of the Medes. The original Medes of 3500 years ago were nomadic Indo-Iranians, but they fell under the control of the Assyrian empire a few centuries later. By the time the Medes helped destroy the Assyrian empire in order to create their own kingdom, they had become a racially mixed group, and in particular seem to have absorbed a lot of Kurdish blood. So, when I identified the Medes as Indo-Iranian in an earlier post, I was referring to the Medes when they first moved into Iran. Yes, their ethnic makeup and language changed later, but that often happens with different groups of people.
 
IMO, it's really important to specify what time frame you're talking about when discussing the genetics, language or culture of certain groups, and that's particularly true of the Medes. The original Medes of 3500 years ago were nomadic Indo-Iranians, but they fell under the control of the Assyrian empire a few centuries later. By the time the Medes helped destroy the Assyrian empire in order to create their own kingdom, they had become a racially mixed group, and in particular seem to have absorbed a lot of Kurdish blood. So, when I identified the Medes as Indo-Iranian in an earlier post, I was referring to the Medes when they first moved into Iran. Yes, their ethnic makeup and language changed later, but that often happens with different groups of people.

Their language never "changed" in the way I believe you mean it. They always stayed as Northwest Iranian language and no they didn't absorbed Kurds because back than Kurds with this ethnic designation didn't existed. throughout history ethnic designation of people changed. Assyrians, Babylonians were known in the past as Akkadians but that doesn't mean that Akkadians were or mixed with Assyrians or Babylonians. The majority of what was the Median confederation lies in nowday Kurdistan and was absorbed by them.

The Kurdish language by scientific researches is very likely a direct descend of Median. The Iranian languages are split into 3 or sometimes 4 subgroups. Northwest Iranian, Southwest Iranian, Northeast Iranian and Southeast Iranian.

The first and very likely origin of all modern Northwest Iranian dialects is Medic. Kurdish is the most prominent and largest group of the Northwest Iranian group. You need to understand the time frame. linguists divide the Iranian linguistic development into three state or phases.

Old Iranic time period to which Avesta, Medic and Old Persian belong, Middle Iranic period also known as Pahlavani period to which Parthian (the successor of Medic) and Middle Persian (successor of Old Persian) belong, and the new Iranian languages phase (our modern Iranian languages) to which modern Kurdish as most prominent belong (as successors of Medic-> Parthian) and Farsi or modern Persian as the most prominent (successor of Old Persian-> Middle Persian) belong. Note I only took Northwest and Southwest Iranian languages as example. But the same shifts happened in Northeast and Southeast Iranian languages too.

please look at this graphic for further understanding. 3 of the four successor dialects of Median are languages only spoken by modern Kurds the fourth Baluchi is also believe to have been descend of Kurds but moved into modern Baluchistan.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/IndoEuropeanTree.svg
 
Their language never "changed" in the way I believe you mean it. They always stayed as Northwest Iranian language and no they didn't absorbed Kurds because back than Kurds with this ethnic designation didn't existed. throughout history ethnic designation of people changed. Assyrians, Babylonians were known in the past as Akkadians but that doesn't mean that Akkadians were or mixed with Assyrians or Babylonians. The majority of what was the Median confederation lies in nowday Kurdistan and was absorbed by them.

The Kurdish language by scientific researches is very likely a direct descend of Median. The Iranian languages are split into 3 or sometimes 4 subgroups. Northwest Iranian, Southwest Iranian, Northeast Iranian and Southeast Iranian.

The first and very likely origin of all modern Northwest Iranian dialects is Medic. Kurdish is the most prominent and largest group of the Northwest Iranian group. You need to understand the time frame. linguists divide the Iranian linguistic development into three state or phases.

Old Iranic time period to which Avesta, Medic and Old Persian belong, Middle Iranic period also known as Pahlavani period to which Parthian (the successor of Medic) and Middle Persian (successor of Old Persian) belong, and the new Iranian languages phase (our modern Iranian languages) to which modern Kurdish as most prominent belong (as successors of Medic-> Parthian) and Farsi or modern Persian as the most prominent (successor of Old Persian-> Middle Persian) belong. Note I only took Northwest and Southwest Iranian languages as example. But the same shifts happened in Northeast and Southeast Iranian languages too.

please look at this graphic for further understanding. 3 of the four successor dialects of Median are languages only spoken by modern Kurds the fourth Baluchi is also believe to have been descend of Kurds but moved into modern Baluchistan.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/IndoEuropeanTree.svg

So basically, Medes are caucaso-persian ( west-asian ) admixture and have zero balochi mixture

since balochi resides of the border of iran, pakistan and india along the coast, i see no median history there
 
IMO, it's really important to specify what time frame you're talking about when discussing the genetics, language or culture of certain groups, and that's particularly true of the Medes. The original Medes of 3500 years ago were nomadic Indo-Iranians, but they fell under the control of the Assyrian empire a few centuries later. By the time the Medes helped destroy the Assyrian empire in order to create their own kingdom, they had become a racially mixed group, and in particular seem to have absorbed a lot of Kurdish blood. So, when I identified the Medes as Indo-Iranian in an earlier post, I was referring to the Medes when they first moved into Iran. Yes, their ethnic makeup and language changed later, but that often happens with different groups of people.
Kurdish Zagros Mountains which were the homeland of the Medes were never under the control of Assyria or other people. Nobody can conrol the Zagros Mountains, it have been always belonged to the natives, then the Medes, today the Kurds.

Also everybody is mixed. The Medes were mixed and the Kurds are mixed. But so are people in Europe. Europeans of today are not the same as Europeans of 2000 years ago. Actually native Europeans of today are not even te same as only 500 years ago.

Modern German nation is not the same as Suebi of 2000 years ago. Modern Greeks are not the same as ancient Greeks, modern Italian nation is not the same as ancient Romans.


But the fact is that the Medes are the true DIRECT ancestors of the Kurd: their folklore, tradition, religion, language, music, culture, social life was passed down to the Kurds..
 
So basically, Medes are caucaso-persian ( west-asian ) admixture and have zero balochi mixture

since balochi resides of the border of iran, pakistan and india along the coast, i see no median history there


I already explained above how that happened. Balochis oririginated somwhere between West Iran and Syria. According to their own records they came from Kurdish tribes from Syria. A good chunk of Balochis might be natives of this region but the people who brought the Balochi language there came from further West from Kurdish territory. Since their language is very untypical for the geographical region they live in. They are Northwest Iranian language speakers surrounded by Persian speakers to the West, Pashto speakers to the North and Punjabi, Sindhi speakers to the East.

Balochi component is part of the larger West Asian component. Caucasian-Persian and Balochi are almost the same. Just modern Balochis have additional ASI (ancestral South Asian) admixture.
 
Kurdish Zagros Mountains which were the homeland of the Medes were never under the control of Assyria or other people. Nobody can conrol the Zagros Mountains, it have been always belonged to the natives, then the Medes, today the Kurds.

Also everybody is mixed. The Medes were mixed and the Kurds are mixed. But so are people in Europe. Europeans of today are not the same as Europeans of 2000 years ago. Actually native Europeans of today are not even te same as only 500 years ago.

Modern German nation is not the same as Suebi of 2000 years ago. Modern Greeks are not the same as ancient Greeks, modern Italian nation is not the same as ancient Romans.


But the fact is that the Medes are the true DIRECT ancestors of the Kurd: their folklore, tradition, religion, language, music, culture, social life was passed down to the Kurds..

I can understand now why you want to jumble together different time periods to make soup. It allows for the creation of a fantasy version of the past, where Medes were the indigenous inhabitants of the Zagros Mountains, and are no doubt descended from paleolithic mountain goats.
 
I can understand now why you want to jumble together different time periods to make soup. It allows for the creation of a fantasy version of the past, where Medes were the indigenous inhabitants of the Zagros Mountains, and are no doubt descended from paleolithic mountain goats.
Huh? The Medes were most probably mostly J2 (J-M172) folks. And as far as I know Y-DNA haplogroup J2* is not the same as haplgroup R1*, since J2* is the TRUE native Zagros Mountains Y-DNA haplogroup, but then again, that's a different story!

You started to talk about the Medes, not me, remember? And R1* has absolutely nothing to do with the Medes, nor Kurds, lol. It predates the Medes by at least 15,000 year!


Speaking about paranoia, why is this so diffcult to accept and REALISE that there is no agenda or whatever behind this thread at all. Why are people interested in haplogroups at the first place?


And surely I'm a descended of a paleothic Zagros mountain goat, mmmehhhh. Do you have anything against the paleothic Zagros mountain goats, I want to know toward which direction I should point my blade sharp horns.
 
Huh? The Medes were most probably mostly J2 (J-M172) folks. And as far as I know Y-DNA haplogroup J2* is not the same as haplgroup R1*, since J2* is the TRUE native Zagros Mountains Y-DNA haplogroup, but then again, that's a different story!

Where do you know that? Again heval Goga please don't make any claims without evidence. There is absolutely no evidence that Medes were mosty J2. No one knows that exactly.
 

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