R1* history, put together by me!

[Goga]

Where do you know that? Again heval Goga please don't make any claims without evidence. There is absolutely no evidence that Medes were mosty J2. No one knows that exactly.

J2* (J-M172) is native to Zagros Mountains, the Medes were native to Zagros Mountains, the Kurds are native to Zagros Mountains, the important Y-DNA in modern Kurds is still J-M172 = problem solved: the major Y-DNA haplogroup in the Medes was J-M172!

 

[Sile]

I already explained above how that happened. Balochis oririginated somwhere between West Iran and Syria. According to their own records they came from Kurdish tribes from Syria. A good chunk of Balochis might be natives of this region but the people who brought the Balochi language there came from further West from Kurdish territory. Since their language is very untypical for the geographical region they live in. They are Northwest Iranian language speakers surrounded by Persian speakers to the West, Pashto speakers to the North and Punjabi, Sindhi speakers to the East.

Balochi component is part of the larger West Asian component. Caucasian-Persian and Balochi are almost the same. Just modern Balochis have additional ASI (ancestral South Asian) admixture.

never heard of balochi in syrian area .....balochi in admixture represents the area i noted

 

[Alan]

never heard of balochi in syrian area .....balochi in admixture represents the area i noted

I think you are confusing the Balochi people with the component which was name after them. The Balochis nowadays live in Southeastern Iran, but a large part of their ancestry and their linguistic forefather came from further West.

Baloch have Medes Origin first settlement was in Aleppo /Halab from where they Migrated to Iraq where they remained until, siding the sons of Ali and taking part in the Battle of Karbala, they were expelled by Yazid, the second of the Umayyad Caliphs, in 680 AD.

They are an Iranian people and mainly speak Balochi language which itself is a branch of the Iranian languages, and more specifically of the Northwestern Iranian languages

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baloch_people#Balochi_language

It's so simple.

 

[Ahadad]

Hi Goga, my GENO 2.0 TEST me a R-PF6215. In FTDNA R-L145 that i know is too old subclade and are found in Middle East, that i know Have cases in eastern Turkey, Iraq, Bahrein, Oman and Qatar. My family from Lebanon and Iraq, i think our Y-Haplogroup is from region around North Iraq, North Syria, Northwest Iran or maybe close caucasus. But our haplotype defintly not European.

This is my Markers-13 23 14 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-9 11 11 26 15 19 31 12-12-15-17 10 11 19-23 15 17 17 17 35-37 12 11

 

[Alan]

Hi Goga, my GENO 2.0 TEST me a R-PF6215. In FTDNA R-L145 that i know is too old subclade and are found in Middle East, that i know Have cases in eastern Turkey, Iraq, Bahrein, Oman and Qatar. My family from Lebanon and Iraq, i think our Y-Haplogroup is from region around North Iraq, North Syria, Northwest Iran or maybe close caucasus. But our haplotype defintly not European.

This is my Markers-13 23 14 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-9 11 11 26 15 19 31 12-12-15-17 10 11 19-23 15 17 17 17 35-37 12 11

It seems that you are a similar case to Goga. Both of you are m17 negative.

 

[Ahadad]

It seems that you are a similar case to Goga. Both of you are m17 negative.

Yes, I think we have same origin. I'm Lebanese/Iraqi Christian origin, for this i think our subclade are from this region because that i know have other cases. I think it's middle east subclade of R1. Probabily this haplotype are from southturkey, north Syria (I heard cases from Aleppo and Homs), North Iraq or Northeast Iran.

See this>>
[h=3]R1-M420[/h]R-M420, defined by the mutation M420, has two branches: R-SRY1532.2, defined by the mutation SRY1532.2, which makes up the vast majority; and R-M420*, the paragroup, defined as M420 positive but SRY1532.2 negative. (In the 2002 scheme, this SRY1532.2 negative minority was one part of the relatively rare group classified as the paragroup R1*.) Mutations understood to be equivalent to M420 include M449, M511, M513, L62, and L63.
Only isolated samples of the new paragroup R-M420* were found by Underhill 2009, mostly in the Middle East and Caucasus 1/121 Omanis, 2/150 Iranians, 1/164 in the UAE, and 3/612 in Turkey. Testing of 7224 more males in 73 other Eurasian populations showed no sign of this category.

 

[Alan]

Yes, I think we have same origin. I'm Lebanese/Iraqi Christian origin, for this i think our subclade are from this region because that i know have other cases. I think it's middle east subclade of R1. Probabily this haplotype are from southturkey, north Syria (I heard cases from Aleppo and Homs), North Iraq or Northeast Iran.

See this>>
R1-M420

R-M420, defined by the mutation M420, has two branches: R-SRY1532.2, defined by the mutation SRY1532.2, which makes up the vast majority; and R-M420*, the paragroup, defined as M420 positive but SRY1532.2 negative. (In the 2002 scheme, this SRY1532.2 negative minority was one part of the relatively rare group classified as the paragroup R1*.) Mutations understood to be equivalent to M420 include M449, M511, M513, L62, and L63.
Only isolated samples of the new paragroup R-M420* were found by Underhill 2009, mostly in the Middle East and Caucasus 1/121 Omanis, 2/150 Iranians, 1/164 in the UAE, and 3/612 in Turkey. Testing of 7224 more males in 73 other Eurasian populations showed no sign of this category.

The highest diversity of R1a is between Southeastern/eastern Turkey and Iran. So yes your paternal origin might be from that region. You could even be a Christian Kurd since R1a is relatively rare among Iraqi Christians aka, Assyrians.

 

[Ahadad]

Maybe yes, but have the Arab tribe Al-shammar that are tested positive 43% of R1a, but i dont know the subclade. Maybe also ?rab from gulf close to Iran, kuwait and qatar.

 

[Alan]

Maybe yes, but have the Arab tribe Al-shammar that are tested positive 43% of R1a, but i dont know the subclade. Maybe also �rab from gulf close to Iran, kuwait and qatar.

Al Shammari are likely bottle necked and I assume they are m17 positive. You are m17 negative. Arabs from the Gulf area (especially Kuwait) are for most part a mix of Iranians/Mesopotamians and Saudis.

This is why I came to the conclusion above

 

[Ahadad]

Yes maybe you are correct, my paternal family from Mosul (North Iraq) and that i see Goga are Kurd Yazidi (Majority from Iraq also). I think this Haplotype are from North Syria, North Iraq and Southern Turkey.

 

[Ahadad]

Goga did you see my comments??

 

[Goga]

Goga did you see my comments??

Oh, now I see it. There're periods that I'm not very active on this site. So I missed your comments, although I'm not forced to answer your comments.
But it's very cool to see another R1a* from the Middle East. But still I don't know exactly to what type I do belong. It has been proven that the original R1a* is born in West Asia and later migrated into Central Asia and the EurAsian Steppes Region. So our Y-DNA has West Asian roots. And yeah you're right, I'm Ezdi Kurd. Most of my ancestors are from Bakur (Northern Kurdistan / Southeast Turkey). My both lineages (mtDNA + Y-DNA) are native to Kurdistan. My paternal tribe is from an area between Rojava (Western Kurdistan / Northern Syria) and Bashur (Southern Kurdistan / Northern Iraq). But I heard many times that my paternal tribe to which I do belong is actually from Rojhelat (Eastern Kurdistan / West Iran). Also I do believe that our R1a* is from the proto-Iranic speaking Mitanni/Kassites who were ancestors of the Medes (proto-Kurds). Mitanni/Kassites and the Medes were very busy and active in the Northern Mesopotamia. So our R1a* is very old and native to West Asia, to the Mountains, to the 'Umman Manda' folks. So to conclude my story, your ancesotrs can be Mitanni/Kassites, the Medes or even the modern day Kurds.

 

[Alpakut]

The Badini Kurds in iraqi Kurdistan might have been the Budinis of Heredotus which had became part of the Medic confederation.

According to Wikipedia article The 1911 Britannica surmises that the Budini were Fenno-Ugric, of the branch now represented by the Udmurts and Komis.^[5]Edgar V. Saks identifies Budini as the Finnic Votic people.^[6]

They could have been indeed Finno-Ugric considering the red hair frequency in the Urals (Budinis were also recorded having red hair)

But on the other side Budin in Turkic could also mean "people, masses" budun, it is a supra-ethnic social term.

 

[Alpakut]

That the Budini, who lived to the north-west of the country of the Scoloti, were Scythians, we collect from the fact that they spoke the Scythian language, which appears clearly to result from two passages of the fourth book of Herodotus. The Budini are in all probability the Bodeni of Ptolemy,

https://books.google.ru/books?id=qL86AAAAcAAJ
Budinians were undoubtly a Scythian nation.

The Budinoi are connected by many scientists with the ancestors of the Mordvins, and this assumption has some justification, but as it turned out, deciphering of the names of Budinoi by means of Old English confirms our assumption. Βουδινοι, perhaps even "Wudinoi", according to Herodotus, were the inhabitants of the forest country. In this case, OE widu, wudu "wood, forest", Eng wooden by the meaning and phonetically are suitable perfect. The word wuden was not found in the Old English but it could exist and mean "forest" on the laws of English grammar.
Herodotus located the city of Gelon in Budinoi country. Scientists did not come to consensus about its real place. B.Shramko long argued that the sity has to be connected with Bilsk hillfort on the Vorskla River (SHRAMKO B.P. 1987), but V. Il'inski refuted this hypothesis. (IL'INSKAYA V.A. 1977: 91-92).

http://www.v-stetsyuk.name/en/Scythian/Herodot.html
Interestingly wudun in Chuvash means "wood, forest". In othere Turkic languages it the word appears as "odun, udun".

 

[Alpakut]

I found an interesting map showing Bulgar and Kurd Scythians (http://alterling2.narod.ru/English/AlanScyth.html)

 

[Alan]

According to Wikipedia article The 1911 Britannica surmises that the Budini were Fenno-Ugric, of the branch now represented by the Udmurts and Komis.^[5]Edgar V. Saks identifies Budini as the Finnic Votic people.^[6]

They could have been indeed Finno-Ugric considering the red hair frequency in the Urals (Budinis were also recorded having red hair)

But on the other side Budin in Turkic could also mean "people, masses" budun, it is a supra-ethnic social term.

After researching more about it, Budini were most likely Iranic. Herodotus mentions them among the five founder tribes of the Medes as the "Budii" and even says they are probably equivalent to the Scythian Budini.

Budi is equivalent to the Kurdish Buti/Boti tribe in Southeastern Anatolia, known as Botan (in older texts as Butan a u=> o loudshift happened here). The Badini are tribal cousins of the Buti nearby and are believed to be the same people.

Thus Deioces collected the Medes into a nation, and ruled over them alone. Now these are the tribes of which they consist: the Busae, the Paretaceni, the Struchates, the Arizanti, the Budii, and the Magi.

Herodotus calls the Busae, Paretaceni and the Budii, "Tribes also found among the Scythians". Struchates "of non Aryan origin " (probably Manneaens), Arizantes another Aryan tribe and the Magi the priest cast of the Medes. That the Budini were Finno_Ugric is just a hypothesis by modern scientist, because they were also partly reindeer herders. But there is small doubt for me that the Budini were an Iranic tribe since they are relatively wide spred and even existed among the early Medes. Also Herodotus calls them clearly a Scythian speaking tribe. They might have been the Scythian group from the most northern territory of Scythia and with the strongest contact to Finno_Ugric speakers.

Udmurts and Komi are close genetic cousins to Indo_Iranians therefore "red haired" isn't a real evidence imo, because red hair is also a common trait among Indo Europeans beside Finno-Ugrics from the Urals. While Finno-Ugrics in North Europe are not that red haired.

 

[Alpakut]

That the Budini were Finno_Ugric is just a hypothesis by modern scientist, because they were also partly reindeer herders. But there is small doubt for me that the Budini were an Iranic tribe since they are relatively wide spred and even existed among the early Medes. Also Herodotus calls them clearly a Scythian speaking tribe. They might have been the Scythian group from the most northern territory of Scythia and with the strongest contact to Finno_Ugric speakers.

Udmurts and Komi are close genetic cousins to Indo_Iranians therefore "red haired" isn't a real evidence imo, because red hair is also a common trait among Indo Europeans beside Finno-Ugrics from the Urals. While Finno-Ugrics in North Europe are not that red haired.

Scythian yes, but who gives you the guarantee they all have spoken Iranic? Red hair is mostly common among non-IE Ugrics and non-IE Natives of north-eastern Britain.