How and when did C-V20 enter Europe

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bicicleur 2

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C-M130 is one of the oldest Eurasian haplogroups, maybe some 75000 years old.
It was supposed to have initially followed a coastal route in southern Asia.

Recently a new subclade was discovered in Europe : C-V20.

Furthermore new SNPs like C-Z1425 and C-CTS11043.

The C-Tree had to be redrawn :


Scannen0003.jpg


Note C-M8 Japan and C-V20 are on the same branch.

C-V20 has been found in Mesolithic Iberia : see the other thread :

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...roup(s)-of-Mesolithic-Iberians-(Braña-1-amp-2)

My question is : how and when did C-V20 enter Europe

Before the last ice age, there where at least 4 invasions, supposedly via the Balkans :

see : http://www.pnas.org/content/109/34/13471.full

- 48000 years ago : Bohunician : linked with Emiran in the Levant , tools very similar to those of the Neanderthals.
- 45000 years ago : Proto-Aurignacian : similar to the Ahmarian in the Levant
- 40000 years ago : Aurignacian
- 32000 years ago : Gravettian

Furthermore 40-45000 years ago people arrived in Kostenki, at the river Don. 39000 years ago they met the Aurignacian people who arrived at the Don river too.

Entries during or after the last ice age are possible too, but the ancient DNA found proves they were in Europe before the neolithics.
 
It's very difficult to say much about C-V20 right now. If CLF is right and we're about to see Mesolithic C-V20 in Spain, then obviously it came to Europe before the Neolithic. But otherwise, we're just going off of a distant connection to another remote C branch (C-M8) that Zhong 2010 gave a divergence time of ~42k years for. That seems to especially put the Aurignacian and Gravettian in picture for C-V20. The sheer age of C and hypothetical early "C-world" (credit to Eupedia poster Abernathy) lends itself well to an Aurignacian hypothesis, but it could be more recent, and Zhong's huge error bars for that ~42k number could put it even earlier. Who knows.
 
Thanks for linking Abernathy's original link, Spakey.

Something that's piqued my interest is the representation of very steatopygous women in gravattian art that persisted through the Mesolithic in Europe.

I remarked early in the intial discussion on guessing La Brana's Y-type that he possessed a pronounced zygomatic process similar to San/Bushmen or East Asians. Some of Dienekes autosomal analyses also that showed a possible shift towards South Eastern Africans [Bushmen] or East Asians.

So to the question, if C-M130 potentially originated from CF in the Horn of Africa, and C-Z1426 split soon after and remained localized in SW Asia, then I suppose it's possible that C-V20 was relatively native to SW Asia/Europe.
 
sparkey said:
It's very difficult to say much about C-V20 right now. If CLF is right and we're about to see Mesolithic C-V20 in Spain, then obviously it came to Europe before the Neolithic. But otherwise, we're just going off of a distant connection to another remote C branch (C-M8) that Zhong 2010 gave a divergence time of ~42k years for. That seems to especially put the Aurignacian and Gravettian in picture for C-V20. The sheer age of C and hypothetical early "C-world" (credit to Eupedia poster Abernathy) lends itself well to an Aurignacian hypothesis, but it could be more recent, and Zhong's huge error bars for that ~42k number could put it even earlier. Who knows.
Click to expand...

Where can I find this age estimate of Zhong 2010 ?
I gues divergence of C-M8 was probably after their arrival in northern China/Japan ?

According to this paper :

https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/handle/1887/19054/English Summary.pdf?sequence=33

The IUP occurs first at the beginning of oxygen isotope stage 3 in Kara-Bom
This is approx 57000 years ago
Could this have been C-CTS11043 or C-M8 ?

They were chased away by EUP prior to the Heinrich 4 cold event (approx 38000 years ago)
These might have been 'F-people'. (haplogroup P)
 
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