Questions on my Y-DNA Haplogroup T

T12b1a CTS8489(18050535 G->A ) or CTS8862(18246590 G->T) 4.5 KY

 • ••••••T1a2b1a1 L25/PF5345/S399 (19136822 T->C)FTDNA subgroup

• ••••••T1a2b1a2 Pages113(2713589 G->A)orS17120 (15426389 A->C )

• ••••••T1a2b1a3 Z33764 (7247507 C->T) Iberians 2.7 KY

• ••••••T1a2b1a4 CTS1080 (7187436 T->C) Hispanics 2.7 KY

• •••••T12b1b Pages11(14496103 C->T) FTDNA subgroup

My results
Green positive tested
Red negative tested
Lilac untested
 
@ fundora

I just received another zero GD with me , he is
Timothy Brennan who is CTS8862 and tested up to 67 markers
 
Sile,

Yes I got the same notification. He is 0 distance away from me at 12 markers but not beyond that. His surname suggests an Irish patrilineal ancestry, consistent with my refined Y-STR phylogenetic analysis pointing to a possible Italo-Celtic distribution of our line. It might correspond to the Hallstatt dispersal and be a minor paternal lineage brought by the Celts to Iberia, the British Isles, and the rest of Western and Northern Europe as well as the Italics into Italy.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S28-U152
 
KFundora said:
Sile,

Yes I got the same notification. He is 0 distance away from me at 12 markers but not beyond that. His surname suggests an Irish patrilineal ancestry, consistent with my refined Y-STR phylogenetic analysis pointing to a possible Italo-Celtic distribution of our line. It might correspond to the Hallstatt dispersal and be a minor paternal lineage brought by the Celts to Iberia, the British Isles, and the rest of Western and Northern Europe as well as the Italics into Italy.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S28-U152
Click to expand...

Brennan comes in at 25 markers for me and is placed as a german in ancestral origins section
 
Sile said:
Brennan comes in at 25 markers for me and is placed as a german in ancestral origins section
Click to expand...

Oh interesting... since his terminal SNP is CTS8862 and still is quite close to you at 25 markers he would be a good addition to my TMRCA calculations. Interesting that on his ancestral origins section he is listed as German, perhaps the Brennan surname was changed from a prior German one or there was an instance of non-paternity along the line.
 
KFundora said:
Oh interesting... since his terminal SNP is CTS8862 and still is quite close to you at 25 markers he would be a good addition to my TMRCA calculations. Interesting that on his ancestral origins section he is listed as German, perhaps the Brennan surname was changed from a prior German one or there was an instance of non-paternity along the line.
Click to expand...

@fundora

Latest information from the T project team

The next update to the YFull tree will have estimates for the TMRCAs for T-CTS54/T-CTS11984 and T-CTS8489/T-CTS8862, thanks to data submitted by two T Project members who have tested Big Y. The two testees are related within the last 300-500 years and several new SNPs will be added to the tree to define a new branch below T-CTS8489.
My predictions for YFull's estimates:
T-CTS54/T-CTS11984 3,500 ybp i.e. 1,500 BC
T-CTS8489/T-CTS8862 2,500 ybp i.e. 500 BC
There are also two more Big Y tests in progress for T-L131 kits (both probably T-L446 and one possibly T-CTS54).
I'll report back here when the results are in.


Edit- Yfull tree came in with 2200ybp for CTS862

Edit- Yfull tree came in with 2200ybp for CTS862

since ybp = 1950 then the range of CTS8862 is .........formed 950BC and the TMRCA is 350BC

T-L131S15560 * Z19910/FGC22999/Y6047 * S12150... 34 SNPsformed 15400 ybp, TMRCA 10800 ybpinfo
  • T-L131*
  • T-P322Y13246 * Y13253 * Y13271... 90 SNPsformed 10800 ybp, TMRCA 800 ybpinfo
    • id:YF02949SAU [SA-01]
    • id:YF03124SAU [SA-02]
  • T-Y6033Z19923/FGC22998/Y6037 * CTS2880 * CTS11660... 18 SNPsformed 10800 ybp, TMRCA 7200 ybpinfo
    • T-Y6033*
    • T-CTS54CTS54 * Z19896 * Z19926... 28 SNPsformed 7200 ybp, TMRCA 2800 ybpinfo
      • T-CTS54*
        • id:NA20758TSI
      • T-CTS8489CTS8862 * CTS10538 * CTS8489... 3 SNPsformed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybpinfo
        • T-CTS8489*
          • id:HG01530IBS
          • id:HG01051PUR
        • T-Y17493Y17497 * Y17499 * Y17500... 11 SNPsformed 2200 ybp, TMRCA 375 ybpinfo
          • id:YF04203new
          • id:YF04232new
 
Last edited:
some comments from geneticists

Interestingly, haplogroup T-M184, which is relatively rare in other Near Eastern populations, as well as in three of the Armenian collections tested here, represents the most prominent descent in Sasun, comprising 20.1% of the samples. The presence of this haplogroup in Ararat Valley, Gardman and Lake Van, by contrast, is more limited, composing only 3.6%, 6.3% and 3.9%, respectively, of the individuals from those collections.[...]Sasun, however, exhibits statistically significant divergence from the remaining Armenian populations, most likely as the result of the prominence in Sasun of lineages (T-M184 and R2a-M124) found at substantially lower frequencies in Ararat Valley, Gardman and Lake Van.
​
Kristian J Herrera, 2012



K* is found at 6/19, if M70- but M184+, then could be 84.2%. Bauris are thought to be descendants of a native tribe of the Central Highlands before the Aryan invasion, then as Bauris have not been well assimilated and have not participated satisfactorily in the new Aryan society, the Bauris ended up being seen as "low caste". They are at "halfway" between the old Bauri tribal and the new Aryan society lifestyle., "High Resolution Phylogeographic Map of Y-Chromosomes Reveal the Genetic Signatures of Pleistocene Origin of Indian Populations"


Biggest Eurpoean areas with T-M184 ( xM70) is Leon Spain with 7.7% and Ossetian irons with 4.8%



Below is to do with the 2 x T1a in Neolithic Germany
These borders most probably were a result of the spread of different groups without close social or biological kinship ties to one another who came in to close contact as a consequence of the LBK colonization pattern. In fact, because the LBK was the first complete Neolithic culture in Central Europe, today all farmers of this time and region are classified as members of the LBK by default, regardless of how these people defined themselves and how they differentiated themselves from their contemporaries.
Meyer et al., 2015
​
 
Issog T November 2015

T M184/Page34/USP9Y+3178, CTS150, CTS482/PF5596, CTS493/PF5597, CTS573, CTS3585/PF5618, CTS3837, CTS4014, CTS4652/PF5547, CTS5035, CTS5268/PF7471, CTS5336/PF5626, CTS6045/PF5629, CTS6275/PF7447, CTS6887/PF5637, CTS7164, CTS7263, CTS7426, CTS7749/L810/PF5640, CTS8247, CTS8994, CTS10416/PF5655, CTS10700, CTS10879, CTS11569, CTS12657, L445, L452, L455/PF5670, M193, M272/PF5667, Page129, PF5529, PF5537, PF5568, PF5587, PF5590, PF5603, PF5607, PF5613, PF5661, PF5674, PF5678, PF7460, PF7464, PF7466, PF7480
• T1 L206, L490
• • T1a M70/Page46/PF5662, CTS2336, CTS5332.1/PF7472.1, CTS5364, CTS5987, CTS6004, CTS6214/PF5631, CTS6375, CTS6577, CTS6805/PF5636, CTS8004/PF5641, CTS8397/PF5646, CTS9268/PF5651, CTS9308, CTS10278, CTS11054, CTS11746, Page78, PF5518, PF5592, PF5602, PF5604, PF5608, PF5659, PF5660, PF5664, PF5666, PF7463, PF7465, PF7481
• • • T1a1 L162/Page21, L454, CTS484, CTS550, CTS3271, CTS5542/PF5627, CTS5690, CTS8065/PF5642, CTS11078, CTS11556, L299/PF5675, L453/PF5617, PF5567, PF5593, PF5594, PF5658, FGC3945.2/Z526.2
• • • • T1a1a L208/Page2, CTS931, CTS1818, CTS2611, CTS4085/PF5620, CTS4916, CTS6000/PF7446, CTS7169/PF7448, CTS9163, CTS9506/PF7450, L905
• • • • • T1a1a1 CTS2214
• • • • • • T1a1a1a Z709
• • • • • • • T1a1a1a1 FGC3988/Z710, CTS8512, Z713, Z714
• • • • • • • • T1a1a1a1a P77, CTS2860, CTS7225/L907, CTS11968, CTS660/L906
• • • • • • • • • T1a1a1a1a1 CTS6507
• • • • • • • • • • T1a1a1a1a1a CTS9882
• • • • • • • • • • T1a1a1a1a1b CTS6280
• • • • • • • • T1a1a1a1b Y6409
• • • • • T1a1a2 P321
• • • • • • T1a1a2a P317
• • • • • T1a1a3 PF7443, PF7444, PF7445, PF7453, PF7457, PF7458
• • • T1a2 L131, CTS2157
• • • • T1a2a P322, P328
• • • • T1a2b L446, CTS11796, CTS12108
• • • • • T1a2b1 CTS3767, CTS11984
• • • • • • T1a2b1a CTS8862, CTS9984
• • • T1a3 L1255
• T2 PH110, PH196, PH478, PH526, PH550, PH768, PH933, PH1092, PH1106, PH1172, PH1268, PH1294, PH1343, PH1378, PH1434, PH1457, PH1546, PH1579, PH1583, PH1633, PH1691, PH1841, PH1867, PH1883, PH2017, PH2156, PH2279, PH2292, PH2328, PH2855, PH2861, PH2900, PH2933, PH2990, PH3010, PH3131, PH3150, PH3341, PH3399, PH3422, PH3474, PH3561, PH3721, PH3842, PH3862, PH3868, PH3922, PH3943, PH3996, PH4121, PH4216, PH4431, PH4591, PH4676, PH4746, PH4802, PH4834, PH4842, PH4892, PH4935, PH5136, PH5171, PH5181, PH5212, PH5256, PH5433

Green I am confirmed positive
Red I am confirmed negative
 
more info below form the T project team of Ftdna

I anticipate that the next update of YFull will add an additional layer between L446 and CTS3767. If it does, I will replicate it on the ISOGG tree.
T-L446 appears to show greater variation in Europe than it does in the middle east. The T-Y7381 branch found in Saudi Arabia (and heavily tested) is relatively young (1400 ybp) so could be the result of a recent migration from further north.
 
YFull was updated (version 3.18) and a new branch has been introduced between L446 and CTS11984, very interesting:

T-L131: formed 15800 ybp, TMRCA 11000 ybp
..T-P322: formed 11000 ybp, TMRCA 800 ybp
..T-Y6033: formed 11000 ybp, TMRCA 7300 ybp
...T-CTS933: formed 7300 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybp
....T-CTS54: formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 2800 ybp
.....T-CTS8489: formed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybp < we are here
......T-Y17493: formed 2200 ybp, TMRCA 375 ybp
...T-Y7381: formed 7300 ybp, TMRCA 1400 ybp

The new branch (added in the previous update, 3.17) below ours is where the Scottish individuals of our clade reside, predominated by the Knoxes.
 
What is very interesting is the young age of our clade and its "close" ties to clades that consist of all Near & Middle Easterners, especially Saudis which are being tested a lot. The same goes for P322 which isn't our clade but it also contains Europeans (mostly Northern Europeans: Germans, Dutch, Norwegians, and English; with one reported Mexican) on one end and then Egyptian, Saudis, and Palestinians (in P327, downstream of P322) on the other.
 
KFundora said:
What is very interesting is the young age of our clade and its "close" ties to clades that consist of all Near & Middle Easterners, especially Saudis which are being tested a lot. The same goes for P322 which isn't our clade but it also contains Europeans (mostly Northern Europeans: Germans, Dutch, Norwegians, and English; with one reported Mexican) on one end and then Egyptian, Saudis, and Palestinians (in P327, downstream of P322) on the other.
Click to expand...

I do not know what you mean with this paragraph
 
What I was saying was that both P322 and the subclades of L446 are either found in Europe or the Middle East, especially among Saudis.
 
KFundora said:
What I was saying was that both P322 and the subclades of L446 are either found in Europe or the Middle East, especially among Saudis.
Click to expand...

ok, but looking only at our branch

• • •T1a2 L131 (19372808 C->T)
• • • •T1a2a F2376.2 (17077206 G->A) FTDNA subgroup
• • • • •T1a2a1 P322 (14000929 G->T) Germans, Dutch, Norwegians, Yemeni Jews, Saudis
[A study by Mendez et al. found 4% of Palestinians in a P322 subroup (P327 18747405 T->C),
but ISOGG designates P327 as a private SNP]
• • • •T1a2b L446 (16660785 C->T)
• • • • •T1a2b1 CTS3767 (15164167 G->C)
• • • • • •T1a2b1a CTS8489(18050535 G->A) orCTS8862 (18246590 G->T) 4.5 KY
• • • • • • •T1a2b1a1 L25/PF5345/S399 (19136822 T->C)FTDNA subgroup
• • • • • • •T1a2b1a2 Pages113(2713589 G->A)orS17120 (15426389 A->C)
• • • • • • •T1a2b1a3 Z33764 (7247507 C->T) Iberians 2.7 KY
• • • • • • •T1a2b1a4 CTS1080 (7187436 T->C) Hispanics 2.7 KY
• • • • • •T1b2b1b Pages11(14496103 C->T) FTDNA subgroup
• • • • • •T1b2b1c CTS4571(15719140 C->T) Tuscans 4.5 KY
• • • • • •T1b2b1d Y7381(7150898 A->G)
• • • • • • •T1b2b1d1 Y7438(14196904 T->C)
• • • • • • • •T1b2b1d1a Y11077 (22909353 G->C) Saudis
• • • • • • • •T1b2b1d1b Y7393 (21509927 C->T)
• • • • • • • • •T1b2b1d1b1 Y7468 (17395593 T->G)
• • • • • • • • • •T1b2b1d1b1a Y7430 (22003091 A->G) Saudis
• • • • • • • • • •T1b2b1d1b1b Y9326 (22470399 T->C) Saudis

we avoid the P322 branch ..........we are both negative for it anyway

As the t project states, we also avoid the saudis, because the T only arrived in arabia about 1400 years ago as he stated and also confirmed by Yfull team.

I am also negative fro the branches of L25, pages113, cts1080 and pages11 .................I am left with Z33764 to test


if we look at yfull then we have


T-L131S15560 * Z19910/FGC22999/Y6047 * S12150... 34 SNPsformed 15800 ybp, TMRCA 11000 ybpinfo
  • id:YF04665KWT [KW-AH]new
  • T-L131*
  • T-P322Y13246 * Y13253 * Y13271... 90 SNPsformed 11000 ybp, TMRCA 800 ybpinfo
    • id:YF03124SAU [SA-02]
    • id:YF02949SAU [SA-01]
  • T-Y6033Z19923/FGC22998/Y6037 * CTS2880 * CTS11660... 18 SNPsformed 11000 ybp, TMRCA 7300 ybpinfo
    • T-Y6033*
    • T-CTS933S24464 * CTS6071 * CTS933... 3 SNPsformed 7300 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybpinfo
      • T-CTS933*
        • id:YF04719IRQ [IQ-BA]new
        • id:YF04638EGY [EG-ASN]new
      • T-CTS54CTS54 * Z19896 * Z19926... 22 SNPsformed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 2800 ybpinfo
        • T-CTS54*
          • id:NA20758TSI
        • T-CTS8489CTS8862 * CTS10538 * CTS8489... 3 SNPsformed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybpinfo
          • T-CTS8489*
            • id:HG01051PUR
            • id:HG01530IBS
          • T-Y17493Y17497 * Y17499 * Y17500... 11 SNPsformed 2200 ybp, TMRCA 375 ybpinfo
            • id:YF04232
            • id:YF04203USA [US-NC]
    • T-Y7381FGC29140/Y7391 * Y9423 * FGC23037/Y7447... 75 SNPsformed 7300 ybp, TMRCA 1400 ybpinfo
      • T-Y7381*
        • id:YF02353SAU [SA-01]
      • T-Y7438FGC23024/Y7438formed 1400 ybp, TMRCA 850 ybpinfo
        • T-Y7438*
          • id:YF03736BHR
        • T-Y11077FGC29152/Y11077formed 850 ybp, TMRCA 450 ybpinfo
          • id:YF02627SAU [SA-01]
          • id:YF02215SAU
        • T-Y7393FGC23047/Y7393formed 850 ybp, TMRCA 850 ybpinfo
          • id:YF02309SAU [SA-01]
          • T-Y7393*
            • id:YF02755SAU [SA-01]
            • id:YF02204SAU


    Note = YBP = 1 January 1950


    so our line at CTS 8862 is year 700BC ............the line under that y17493 in the USA ( which is my Hill, Perry and Powell "relatives" ) is dated 1575 AD

    The line CTS933 confuses me.........are we part of it or not ..............I have no results for any of those SNP's in that line . The 2 samples are Persian Basrah or Egyptian Aswan.


    BTW, my fathers sample is stated by some T members to contain Galician Spain and Vendee French markers..........I am still checking this out ..........my father has 15% less Italian than me ?!?!
 
Info below by T project in regards to our line CTS8862

but because you are CTS8862+ you can assume you are positive for
- CTS933 and all equivalent SNPs
- CTS54 and all equivalent SNPs
You can't tell whether you are positive for all the SNPs equivalent to CTS8862 (my bet is all or most of them) and you don't know which SNPs you are positive for of those shared by the two T-Y17493 kits (I suspect it would be very few, possibly none).

The two T-Y17493 kits are related in genealogical time as they share a surname but they don't have a paper trail to confirm this. 1500-1650 AD is not an unreasonable estimate, I wouldn't be confident to be more precise than that.
 
Italy - T-CTS11984 and L131

I have T-CTS11984 and L131.

Nat. Geo said it was Northern European. Which match our surname...Pandolfi. Which is German for Banner-Wolf. The /i/ is an Italian add on.

However, my family has been in Italy for at least 220 years according to church records.

There is an old old record of the Lombards which Pandolfi is known to be, that describes their migration that ended in Italy around 900AD. I don't remember the name of the book...but I think it is simple like Lombards.

When I saw your haplo group I was exited. Based on the surname search I did...there are few males with Lombard surnames left.
 
Sorry wrong thread.
 
LombardsofItaly said:
I have T-CTS11984 and L131.

Nat. Geo said it was Northern European. Which match our surname...Pandolfi. Which is German for Banner-Wolf. The /i/ is an Italian add on.

However, my family has been in Italy for at least 220 years according to church records.

There is an old old record of the Lombards which Pandolfi is known to be, that describes their migration that ended in Italy around 900AD. I don't remember the name of the book...but I think it is simple like Lombards.

When I saw your haplo group I was exited. Based on the surname search I did...there are few males with Lombard surnames left.
Click to expand...

Nice to meet another CTS11984+! So you're saying your paternal line comes from Lombardy? Interesting, another Italian in our clade. I was researching your Pandolfi surname and I came across this:
Pandolfi, cognomeitaliano di origine longobarda (deriva dal nome Pandulf ; italiano : Pandolfo), importato in Italia dai Longobardi (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandolfi)
This makes sense based on what you said. If this is the case, then our clade might be Germanic especially since recent time estimates on our SNPs go only about 2,800 years ago (for CTS11984).
 
If you tested with Nat Geno, have you uploaded a story? If you do, it can pop up among the other men who are CTS11984+ in that section and it can show how closely related you are to them. I have one and so does the other user in this thread, Sile.

Also, have you tested for your Y-STRs? They can help show closely related you are to another male within the same clade sometimes within hundreds of years. I have been running time estimates and phylogenetic trees to figure out how our clades are related and dispersed/migrated and STR info is key.
 
LombardsofItaly said:
I have T-CTS11984 and L131.

Nat. Geo said it was Northern European. Which match our surname...Pandolfi. Which is German for Banner-Wolf. The /i/ is an Italian add on.

However, my family has been in Italy for at least 220 years according to church records.

There is an old old record of the Lombards which Pandolfi is known to be, that describes their migration that ended in Italy around 900AD. I don't remember the name of the book...but I think it is simple like Lombards.

When I saw your haplo group I was exited. Based on the surname search I did...there are few males with Lombard surnames left.
Click to expand...

hi

you are one step before Fundora and myself

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html

this tree is from end of November 2015
 
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