Questions on my Y-DNA Haplogroup T

... & Belser Belluno, from Ysearch)...

Wait, I remember seeing the Russo individual was of the Russo surname project on FTDNA but you're saying he isn't actually a Russo? His surname is Belser and his paternal line goes back to Belluno in Venice?
 
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Wait, I remember seeing the Russo individual was of the Russo surname project on FTDNA but you're saying he isn't actually a Russo? His surname is Belser and his paternal line goes back to Belluno in Venice?

I was just saying that I do not have russo , but have a Belser

I have a benedetto from Molise ..............he married a german, the name is fabricated, it means some say good person

Dalessio is americanized surname, in Italy it would be one of the following:

Da Lessio = means from the town of Lessio in northern Italy ..............like Da Vinci = came from town called Vinci.
from Lessio you get another popular name as Less ( usually found in Alpine Italy ) , with Less there is another name which is Loss ( I have a very distant relative who was Bridiga Loss circa IIRC 1700 )

D'Alessio = means same as Di Alessio , it could mean he stated he was the son Alessio............again 80% plus this name is northern Italian.
 
Oh I see, never mind. My mistake.
 
Oh I see, never mind. My mistake.

I check for every CTS8862 possible and could only find 5 people that where positive for it, You, me, Knox, Dalessio and a french/german ( no name found, but on the border)
all the others ( over 20 plus in number ) are negative tested and are isolated in saudi Arabia, mesopotamia, north germany and southern England .......

Dalessio and me get further and further apart the higher the number of markers
12 markers = 0 GD
25 markers = 3 GD
37 markers = 5 GD
67 markers = 15 GD
we both tested 67 markers
 
I check for every CTS8862 possible and could only find 5 people that where positive for it, You, me, Knox, Dalessio and a french/german ( no name found, but on the border)
all the others ( over 20 plus in number ) are negative tested and are isolated in saudi Arabia, mesopotamia, north germany and southern England .......

Dalessio and me get further and further apart the higher the number of markers
12 markers = 0 GD
25 markers = 3 GD
37 markers = 5 GD
67 markers = 15 GD
we both tested 67 markers

YFull lists 2 CTS8862+ (or positive for an equivalent SNP) one from Spain and one from Puerto Rico. Four more individuals were added to T-L446* but their origins have to be posted (they still say "new").

I have been reevaluating some STR relationships and used the slowest STRs from the 37 I tested. The results from Ysearch showed a close relationship to Italians (Russo, Rossi, Dalessio), Germans (Froschauer, Frush, Schales), Brits, 1 Brazilian (Carvalho, actually Pinto), and 1 Spaniard (Madrigal) amongst others (GD from 0-3) and on SMGF 1 Italian (Lippi), 1 German (Mueller), 1 Brazilian, and 2 Hispanics (Rojas, Lanas) (GD from 1-3).

The fact that I have Hispanic and Brazilian/Portuguese matches, as well as 2 other CTS8862+ of Spanish origin, confirms the likelihood that my immediate paternal ancestry was from Iberia, yet the other relationships clearly mean something else. I know I have dwelt on this notion before but there could an Indo-European connection...

The late Bronze Age spread of Indo-European peoples (namely Celts and Italics) in western and central Europe could explain this apparent close paternal relation amongst individuals in the British isles, Iberia, Germany, and Italy. It is interesting to note how Brits, Irish, Scots, southern Germans, (mostly northern) italians, and northern Iberians are all present in this group. The Spanish surnames of the individuals closest to me all have surnames originating in northern Spain (Rojas in Burgos or Lugo, Lanas in Navarre, Madrigal in Castile, also Lemas in Galicia [Lemas is the closest match to me on FTDNA, have yet to find out his STRs]), corroborating an at least Celtic connection. This could also explain the concentration of T in northern Spain, especially in Asturias and isolated parts of Cantabria.

This is solely my theory and there could be numerous holes. I still consider a Neolithic origin to be likely but have yet to see how it can compensate for these matches and their geographic patterns.
 
YFull lists 2 CTS8862+ (or positive for an equivalent SNP) one from Spain and one from Puerto Rico. Four more individuals were added to T-L446* but their origins have to be posted (they still say "new").

I have been reevaluating some STR relationships and used the slowest STRs from the 37 I tested. The results from Ysearch showed a close relationship to Italians (Russo, Rossi, Dalessio), Germans (Froschauer, Frush, Schales), Brits, 1 Brazilian (Carvalho, actually Pinto), and 1 Spaniard (Madrigal) amongst others (GD from 0-3) and on SMGF 1 Italian (Lippi), 1 German (Mueller), 1 Brazilian, and 2 Hispanics (Rojas, Lanas) (GD from 1-3).

The fact that I have Hispanic and Brazilian/Portuguese matches, as well as 2 other CTS8862+ of Spanish origin, confirms the likelihood that my immediate paternal ancestry was from Iberia, yet the other relationships clearly mean something else. I know I have dwelt on this notion before but there could an Indo-European connection...

The late Bronze Age spread of Indo-European peoples (namely Celts and Italics) in western and central Europe could explain this apparent close paternal relation amongst individuals in the British isles, Iberia, Germany, and Italy. It is interesting to note how Brits, Irish, Scots, southern Germans, (mostly northern) italians, and northern Iberians are all present in this group. The Spanish surnames of the individuals closest to me all have surnames originating in northern Spain (Rojas in Burgos or Lugo, Lanas in Navarre, Madrigal in Castile, also Lemas in Galicia [Lemas is the closest match to me on FTDNA, have yet to find out his STRs]), corroborating an at least Celtic connection. This could also explain the concentration of T in northern Spain, especially in Asturias and isolated parts of Cantabria.

This is solely my theory and there could be numerous holes. I still consider a Neolithic origin to be likely but have yet to see how it can compensate for these matches and their geographic patterns.

I have no doubt the you are hispanic in the last few hundreds years , especially since we do not match from 25 markers and beyond. But Brazil is not entirely a hispanic colony, over 2 million veneti from northern italy settled in southern Brazil ( around sao Paulo ). There was so many that a dialect was created called Talian ( the name Venetians give to all Italians )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talian_dialect
easy for me to read..http://www.coromarmolada.it/talian.htm ...from southern Brazil

The other 3 million veneti who left between 1875 to 1970 settled in the other parts of the world with USA getting the fewest ( As USA was southern Italian area of settlement initially )

 
I agree in regards to the fact that a lot of Brazilians do have a lot of Italian ancestry. The BrazilIan individual on SMGF was as close to me as was to Lippi sometimes, but we can't conclude anything regarding their ancestry unless they find a connection.
 
I agree in regards to the fact that a lot of Brazilians do have a lot of Italian ancestry. The BrazilIan individual on SMGF was as close to me as was to Lippi sometimes, but we can't conclude anything regarding their ancestry unless they find a connection.

Which in my list do you not have!
 
Which in my list do you not have!

People you have that I don't:
-Dalessio

People I have that you don't:
-Curtiss
-Lemas
-Pierluisi
 
@fundora

a new match in FF yesterday.........another "hessian" stated from USA, named Harris ?! ............3rd cousin this time ( some people say in Ftdna to add two levels ...5th cousin !?!)
with surnames
Parlier, Perlier, Pettit ...............seems french to me
Reese Schuster ............German
Soot ...............slang Italian , meaning dry
Steinseiffer ............austrian/bavarian
Tudor ...................NW Italian .......or English
 
Interesting. Well, I didn't get any new matches in Family Tree DNA.
 
Sile,

I found a better TMRCA calculator than MacDonald's, it's by Tim Janzen and can be accessed from http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Y-DNA_tools under TMRCA Calculators. His Excel program allows for hundreds of haplotypes to be put in at once and puts out several TMRCAs in generations and years based on different methods and using different STRs.

I put into it my STRs, your's (your are Pretotto, correct?), Knox from N Ireland, Knox from US, and Mason as we are the only CTS8862 whose STRs are available. Knox from US and Mason are predicted CTS8862 due to their close relation to Knox from N Ireland who is confirmed CTS8862. Looking at the TMRCAs that removed the fast STRs and included the best methods and corrections, I discovered that our most recent common ancestor was about 64 generations ago or 1,900 years. Since I used my father as a reference point, that puts our MRCA in the 1st century to 2nd century CE. This may not be the actual appearance of our SNP but it is still significant because for our paternal lines to be traced in "recent" times to the British Isles, Italy, and Spain yet still be related at some point almost 2,000 years ago is very interesting. I looked at our individual relations, aka inputting only 2 haplotypes at a time, and saw that I was closest in relation to Knox from N Ireland, with a MRCA living 595 years ago, putting that man living around the late 14th century. What does this all mean? I have yet to figure it out, but there must have been some demographic event or historical population that could have caused a far flung distribution of descendants in a short amount of time. I looked into the Jewish diaspora from Judaea after the destruction of the Second Temple and it correlates with the time period of our last common ancestor. These Jews, who either fled to other parts of the Roman Empire or were sold into slavery in Rome likely distributed themselves far and wide. It cannot be said how quickly they could have converted into Christianity to assimilate and avoid the cycle of persecution they suffered throughout time or if they did so at all. For my MRCA with Knox, there could be a link to the Sephardi Jews that fled Spain only a century later in the late 15th century, some of which did migrate to the British Isles... but that occurred during the 17th and 18th centuries, possibly contradicting these theories since Knox's earliest ancestor was born 1759 in Strabane.

Janzen did state that the 37 and 67 STR calculations in his Excel program did sometimes underestimate the TMRCA, for which I can see is a possibility here. I also went along and tried evaluating the TMRCA for other T-L131 sub-clades, including L446 itself. Here is what I got:

L446: 5,000 years ago (not including Saudi and Kuwaiti STRs, might be older once I include them)
-CTS11984: 3,800 years ago
--CTS8862: 1,900 years ago
--PS11: 900 years ago
P322: 3,400 years ago

*All of these results were done using 37 STRs.
 
Sile,

I found a better TMRCA calculator than MacDonald's, it's by Tim Janzen and can be accessed from http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Y-DNA_tools under TMRCA Calculators. His Excel program allows for hundreds of haplotypes to be put in at once and puts out several TMRCAs in generations and years based on different methods and using different STRs.

I put into it my STRs, your's (your are Pretotto, correct?), Knox from N Ireland, Knox from US, and Mason as we are the only CTS8862 whose STRs are available. Knox from US and Mason are predicted CTS8862 due to their close relation to Knox from N Ireland who is confirmed CTS8862. Looking at the TMRCAs that removed the fast STRs and included the best methods and corrections, I discovered that our most recent common ancestor was about 64 generations ago or 1,900 years. Since I used my father as a reference point, that puts our MRCA in the 1st century to 2nd century CE. This may not be the actual appearance of our SNP but it is still significant because for our paternal lines to be traced in "recent" times to the British Isles, Italy, and Spain yet still be related at some point almost 2,000 years ago is very interesting. I looked at our individual relations, aka inputting only 2 haplotypes at a time, and saw that I was closest in relation to Knox from N Ireland, with a MRCA living 595 years ago, putting that man living around the late 14th century. What does this all mean? I have yet to figure it out, but there must have been some demographic event or historical population that could have caused a far flung distribution of descendants in a short amount of time. I looked into the Jewish diaspora from Judaea after the destruction of the Second Temple and it correlates with the time period of our last common ancestor. These Jews, who either fled to other parts of the Roman Empire or were sold into slavery in Rome likely distributed themselves far and wide. It cannot be said how quickly they could have converted into Christianity to assimilate and avoid the cycle of persecution they suffered throughout time or if they did so at all. For my MRCA with Knox, there could be a link to the Sephardi Jews that fled Spain only a century later in the late 15th century, some of which did migrate to the British Isles... but that occurred during the 17th and 18th centuries, possibly contradicting these theories since Knox's earliest ancestor was born 1759 in Strabane.

Janzen did state that the 37 and 67 STR calculations in his Excel program did sometimes underestimate the TMRCA, for which I can see is a possibility here. I also went along and tried evaluating the TMRCA for other T-L131 sub-clades, including L446 itself. Here is what I got:

L446: 5,000 years ago (not including Saudi and Kuwaiti STRs, might be older once I include them)
-CTS11984: 3,800 years ago
--CTS8862: 1,900 years ago
--PS11: 900 years ago
P322: 3,400 years ago

*All of these results were done using 37 STRs.

Thanks for this

Below is the other confirmed CTS8862..........Dalessio ( no such name in Italy ) it was either D'Alessio or da Lessio ..........both Alessio and Lessio are 70% + in Italy from my paternal area.
13 22 13 10 13 13 11 12 11 14 13 30 16 9 9 11 12 27 15 19 35 11 11 15 16 10 11 23 25 16 13 19 16 34 34 14 9 12 11 15 11 8 17 17 8 11 10 8 12 11 20 20 17 10 12 12 15 8 26 21 11 12 14 10 11 12 11

try that one out and see where we all fit.

I will get you the other 2 I recently found

BTW...CTS11984 might also be worth investigating
and
I have found zero CTS8862+ in Arabia and the mesopotamia area..........all are tested CTS8862-
 
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With Dalessio I get

Age in years for 37 markers using James Heald's method and Chandler's mutation rates after removing CDYa, CDYb, and DYS 464:
1002

and with Vernon Jones from North Carolina year 1760
Age in years for 37 markers using James Heald's method and Chandler's mutation rates after removing CDYa, CDYb, and DYS 464:
1545
 
Thanks for this

Below is the other confirmed CTS8862..........Dalessio ( no such name in Italy ) it was either D'Alessio or da Lessio ..........both Alessio and Lessio are 70% + in Italy from my paternal area.
13 22 13 10 13 13 11 12 11 14 13 30 16 9 9 11 12 27 15 19 35 11 11 15 16 10 11 23 25 16 13 19 16 34 34 14 9 12 11 15 11 8 17 17 8 11 10 8 12 11 20 20 17 10 12 12 15 8 26 21 11 12 14 10 11 12 11

try that one out and see where we all fit.

I will get you the other 2 I recently found

BTW...CTS11984 might also be worth investigating
and
I have found zero CTS8862+ in Arabia and the mesopotamia area..........all are tested CTS8862-

Oh I forgot about him, I will include him now. I would also greatly appreciate those other 2 CTS8862. I know there are 2 other CTS8862 from YFull that are Puerto Rican and Spanish but we do not know their STRs.

Just as a reminder, this was a preliminary and tentative theory. It will take much more research to confirm my statements.
 
With Dalessio I get

Age in years for 37 markers using James Heald's method and Chandler's mutation rates after removing CDYa, CDYb, and DYS 464:
1002

and with Vernon Jones from North Carolina year 1760
Age in years for 37 markers using James Heald's method and Chandler's mutation rates after removing CDYa, CDYb, and DYS 464:
1545

Is Vernon Jones also CTS8862+?
 
Yes, CTS11984 might also be worth investigating. It is found only among European L446 (as well as Russian, Turkish, and Armenian I think) and that is surely very interesting.
 
Oh I forgot about him, I will include him now. I would also greatly appreciate those other 2 CTS8862. I know there are 2 other CTS8862 from YFull that are Puerto Rican and Spanish but we do not know their STRs.

Just as a reminder, this was a preliminary and tentative theory. It will take much more research to confirm my statements.

the Tuscan from yfull

TSI NA20758 T* 19 14 19 29 14 10 26 12 12 9 15 17 21 22 12 13 11 13 16 13 14 15 12

13 22 14 10 13-14 na na 12 14 13 29 16 x-xx xx xx xx 15 19 xx xx-xx-xx-xx xx 12 xx-xx 15 xx 19 17 xx-xx xx 9
DYS635= 21
DYS481= 26
DYS549= 12
DYS533= 12
DYS643= 11


#Genetic analyzer:3730xl; POP7
#File created: January 7, 2014
Population SampleID YHaplogroup DYS576 DYS389I DYS448 DYS389II DYS19 DYS391 DYS481 DYS549 DYS533 DYS438 DYS437 DYS570 DYS635 DYS390 DYS439 DYS392 DYS643 DYS393 DYS458 DYS385a DYS385b DYS456 Y-GATA-H4


you need to sort it out
 

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