Questions on my Y-DNA Haplogroup T

Also, I had assumed that Fondera was a non-Catalán surname because it means "barkeeper" or "innkeeper" in Castilian (Spanish). Joseph Fondera could have easily been a Castilian whose name was recorded differently and had migrated to Cataluña in the 1670s and 80s.
 
This, Pinar del Rio Province, means - Canal of fish fins.
Rio is a boatable canal/river, if it was unboatable it would be a Fos.

Unsure if the Genoese used the word Rio

At the time that these Genoese (called Ligurian by one source) and Venetian sailors would have shipwrecked on the western coast of Cuba (1605), the province was referred to as Nuevas Filipinas or "New Philippines" due to the transfer and connection with the tobacco plantations in the Philippines and the huge influx of Filipinos, both caused by the Manila Galleons (they sailed every year or twice a year between Manila to Acapulco from 1565-1815). It was in 1774 that the province was renamed Pinar del Río which translates literally into "pinewood of the river", referring to the pine forest found along the River Guamá.

However, in regards to Mantua, its founding by shipwrecked Italian sailors (who landed at the coastal location known as los Arroyos de Mantua) who wandered inland and created a settlement is an oral tradition passed down through the generations by the townspeople. I recently looked up sources about the subject and one confirmed that, around that time, the Pope had stated in a document regarding an Italian ship, either named Mantua or had some relation with Mantua in Lombardy, being confused for pirates by the English and being pursued until it crashed into the coral reefs. Another source suggests the possibility that the ship was ordered into a secret expedition to the New World by Duke Vincenzo I Gonzago of Mantua. Either way, the settlement became an official town in 1716 under the name of Guane del Norte and later came to be officially called Mantua. Currently, Italian surnames, such as Ferrari, Pitaluga, and Fiorenzana, are found there. Also, a source noted the lack of Italian surnames recorded in Mantua during the Cuban revolution by General Maceo, but it was because he was received by the Spaniard population of the town, who were more well-off, while those of Italian descent (the fishermen and farmers) were not documented.
 
At the time that these Genoese (called Ligurian by one source) and Venetian sailors would have shipwrecked on the western coast of Cuba (1605), the province was referred to as Nuevas Filipinas or "New Philippines" due to the transfer and connection with the tobacco plantations in the Philippines and the huge influx of Filipinos, both caused by the Manila Galleons (they sailed every year or twice a year between Manila to Acapulco from 1565-1815). It was in 1774 that the province was renamed Pinar del Río which translates literally into "pinewood of the river", referring to the pine forest found along the River Guamá.

However, in regards to Mantua, its founding by shipwrecked Italian sailors (who landed at the coastal location known as los Arroyos de Mantua) who wandered inland and created a settlement is an oral tradition passed down through the generations by the townspeople. I recently looked up sources about the subject and one confirmed that, around that time, the Pope had stated in a document regarding an Italian ship, either named Mantua or had some relation with Mantua in Lombardy, being confused for pirates by the English and being pursued until it crashed into the coral reefs. Another source suggests the possibility that the ship was ordered into a secret expedition to the New World by Duke Vincenzo I Gonzago of Mantua. Either way, the settlement became an official town in 1716 under the name of Guane del Norte and later came to be officially called Mantua. Currently, Italian surnames, such as Ferrari, Pitaluga, and Fiorenzana, are found there. Also, a source noted the lack of Italian surnames recorded in Mantua during the Cuban revolution by General Maceo, but it was because he was received by the Spaniard population of the town, who were more well-off, while those of Italian descent (the fishermen and farmers) were not documented.

yes
Pin = Pine

But pinewood in venetian is Pes'ara...........Pinar must be genoese or piemontese dialect

The Gonzagas of Mantua ( montova ) married into the french aristocracy ( the house of Nevers and also the house of Lorraine )..........this can be another path for you.
 
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Sile
...and Yes, there is a big chance that french and catalan play a role in L446, there are about 5% of T in Auvergne and another 5% in Alsace. I assume catalan should have it especially since Ibiza has a lot of T...



I personally thought that a French/Catalán origin was less likely because L446 was not found in Iberia and was restricted to NW Europe (mostly the British Isles, the Low Countries, Germany, Scandinavia), the Eastern Alps, and parts of Eastern Europe (Romania and Poland), although you did mention a small presence in La Rochelle, France. In fact, the French/Catalán origin was one I personally suggested due to an educated guess based on: the etymological similarity of Fondera (and its misspelling in church records as Fundera), the historic migration of Catalanes to Cuba, and the fact that the earliest individual bearing the Fondera surname was named Joseph Fondera (b. ca. 1660s) - the name Joseph in Catalán would have been spelled as Josep, as are his grandchildren in the records, and the nearest place that spelled it that way was France and the French surname Fonder (found in France and the Ardennes region of Belgium) seemed as a logical precursor to Fondera. There is a possibility that I may be completely wrong because I based this on a slew of assumptions.

Here is a T-subclade map I found on the Internet that may be of use for interpretation and analysis: eng.molgen(dot)org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1299 (I couldn't post the image directly, it was too large of a file)

Also, here is what I found from FTDNA based on those individuals who tested for L131 and L446:
Locations where T-L131+ (as per FTDNA):

  • Shchedrin, Belarus (Surname: Epstein)
  • Bushtyno, Zakarpats’ka oblast, Ukraine (Surname: Lebovics)
  • Harran, Turkey (Surname: Terakh)
  • Różan, Poland (Surname: Jezernicki)
  • Germany (Surname: Rauch)
  • Radóc, Romania (Surname: György)
  • Valenciennes, France (Surname: Rapalje)
  • Guano Canton, Ecuador (Surname: Guerra)
  • Van Province, Turkey (Surname: Ardzrooni [Armenian])
  • Tibeni, Romania (Surname: Gyorgy [Transylvania])
  • Bacău, Romania (Surname: Lazar)
  • Musano, Treviso, Veneto, Italy (Surname: Pretotto)
  • Trowbridge, Wiltshire, UK (Surname: Corson)
  • Dipignano Cosenza, Italy (Surname: Laccino)
  • Alsace, France (Surname: Miller)
  • Tolkmicko, Poland (Surname: Hohenfeld)
  • Ciripcau, Moldova (Surname: Karapcivsky)
  • Schmerikon, Sankt Gallen, Schweiz (Switzerland) (Surname: Blarer)
  • Morshansk, Tambov Oblast, Russia (Surname: Vavilov)
  • Alsace-Lorraine, France (Surname: Dufford)
  • Mordovia, Russia (Surname: Bulgakov)

Predicted L131+:

  • Burscheid, Germany (Surname: Erlenkoetter)
  • Sicily, Italy (?)
  • Tomnavoulin, Ballindalloch, Banffshire, (Scotland), UK (Surname: McDonald)
  • Palermo, Italy (Surname: Arcuni)
  • Shtip, Macedonia (Surname: Todorov)
  • Madrid (or Mallorca), Spain (Surname: Madrigal)
  • Nassau, Bahamas (Surname: Major)
  • County Cork, Ireland (Surname: Bernard)
  • Arboleas, Spain (Surname: de Veraguas)
  • Matute, Spain (Surname: Lopez)

Locations where T-L446+ (as per FTDNA):

  • KY/TX, USA (Surname: Powell)
  • VA (UK), USA (Surname: Sizemore)
  • VA, USA (Surname: Powell)
  • Hamburg, Germany (Surname: Golditz)
  • Schleswig-Holstein, Germany (Surname: Kile)
  • Kuwait (Surname: *? Abdullah Kuwait)
  • FL/NY, USA (Surname: Mason)
  • Strabane, County Tryone (Northern Ireland), UK (Surname: Knox)
  • NC, USA (Surname: Knox)


I also continue to thank you on all the help and information you are providing me with.
 
yes
Pin = Pine

But pinewood in venetian is Pes'ara...........Pinar must be genoese or piemontese dialect

The Gonzagas of Mantua ( montova ) married into the french aristocracy ( the house of Nevers and also the house of Lorraine )..........this can be another path for you.

Oh wow, I will take that into consideration.
 
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Sile
...and Yes, there is a big chance that french and catalan play a role in L446, there are about 5% of T in Auvergne and another 5% in Alsace. I assume catalan should have it especially since Ibiza has a lot of T...



I personally thought that a French/Catalán origin was less likely because L446 was not found in Iberia and was restricted to NW Europe (mostly the British Isles, the Low Countries, Germany, Scandinavia), the Eastern Alps, and parts of Eastern Europe (Romania and Poland), although you did mention a small presence in La Rochelle, France. In fact, the French/Catalán origin was one I personally suggested due to an educated guess based on: the etymological similarity of Fondera (and its misspelling in church records as Fundera), the historic migration of Catalanes to Cuba, and the fact that the earliest individual bearing the Fondera surname was named Joseph Fondera (b. ca. 1660s) - the name Joseph in Catalán would have been spelled as Josep, as are his grandchildren in the records, and the nearest place that spelled it that way was France and the French surname Fonder (found in France and the Ardennes region of Belgium) seemed as a logical precursor to Fondera. There is a possibility that I may be completely wrong because I based this on a slew of assumptions.

Here is a T-subclade map I found on the Internet that may be of use for interpretation and analysis: eng.molgen(dot)org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1299 (I couldn't post the image directly, it was too large of a file)

Also, here is what I found from FTDNA based on those individuals who tested for L131 and L446:
Locations where T-L131+ (as per FTDNA):

  • Shchedrin, Belarus (Surname: Epstein)
  • Bushtyno, Zakarpats’ka oblast, Ukraine (Surname: Lebovics)
  • Harran, Turkey (Surname: Terakh)
  • Różan, Poland (Surname: Jezernicki)
  • Germany (Surname: Rauch)
  • Radóc, Romania (Surname: György)
  • Valenciennes, France (Surname: Rapalje)
  • Guano Canton, Ecuador (Surname: Guerra)
  • Van Province, Turkey (Surname: Ardzrooni [Armenian])
  • Tibeni, Romania (Surname: Gyorgy [Transylvania])
  • Bacău, Romania (Surname: Lazar)
  • Musano, Treviso, Veneto, Italy (Surname: Pretotto)
  • Trowbridge, Wiltshire, UK (Surname: Corson)
  • Dipignano Cosenza, Italy (Surname: Laccino)
  • Alsace, France (Surname: Miller)
  • Tolkmicko, Poland (Surname: Hohenfeld)
  • Ciripcau, Moldova (Surname: Karapcivsky)
  • Schmerikon, Sankt Gallen, Schweiz (Switzerland) (Surname: Blarer)
  • Morshansk, Tambov Oblast, Russia (Surname: Vavilov)
  • Alsace-Lorraine, France (Surname: Dufford)
  • Mordovia, Russia (Surname: Bulgakov)

Predicted L131+:

  • Burscheid, Germany (Surname: Erlenkoetter)
  • Sicily, Italy (?)
  • Tomnavoulin, Ballindalloch, Banffshire, (Scotland), UK (Surname: McDonald)
  • Palermo, Italy (Surname: Arcuni)
  • Shtip, Macedonia (Surname: Todorov)
  • Madrid (or Mallorca), Spain (Surname: Madrigal)
  • Nassau, Bahamas (Surname: Major)
  • County Cork, Ireland (Surname: Bernard)
  • Arboleas, Spain (Surname: de Veraguas)
  • Matute, Spain (Surname: Lopez)

Locations where T-L446+ (as per FTDNA):

  • KY/TX, USA (Surname: Powell)
  • VA (UK), USA (Surname: Sizemore)
  • VA, USA (Surname: Powell)
  • Hamburg, Germany (Surname: Golditz)
  • Schleswig-Holstein, Germany (Surname: Kile)
  • Kuwait (Surname: *? Abdullah Kuwait)
  • FL/NY, USA (Surname: Mason)
  • Strabane, County Tryone (Northern Ireland), UK (Surname: Knox)
  • NC, USA (Surname: Knox)


I also continue to thank you on all the help and information you are providing me with.

I have a ancestor from 1745 from Morfumo Veneto with the surname Forner ..............which is similar

of the list you gave
Rapalje is not his true name, Guerra was originally Goera ( same meaning of war), Corson, ancestors are from Sondrio Lombardia and name originates from Corse which means corsican, Blarer is from the 12th century, Hohenfeld is a Prussian,

none of the L131 list are L446

Powell not related to me , although Thomas Powell is close in marker with me.
Sizemore could be ...........horsetrader and slaver from scotland.
Kile not related to me.
Kuwait person originated from northern syria.
Mason unsure, but same spelling and surname is in northern Italy.
Knox could have some ties.

If you think you have some alpine ties, then write to Chris in the Ftdna ALPGEN project and he maybe can check his data....he is very helpful

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/all-snp-maps/
select SNP above and see the L446 in the world....info is gathered from all testing sites..BUT only 67 markers and above ( seems they want to ensure accuracy)
 
Powell not related to me , although Thomas Powell is close in marker with me.
Sizemore could be ...........horsetrader and slaver from scotland.
Kile not related to me.
Kuwait person originated from northern syria.
Mason unsure, but same spelling and surname is in northern Italy.
Knox could have some ties.

If you think you have some alpine ties, then write to Chris in the Ftdna ALPGEN project and he maybe can check his data....he is very helpful

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/all-snp-maps/
select SNP above and see the L446 in the world....info is gathered from all testing sites..BUT only 67 markers and above ( seems they want to ensure accuracy)

How did you discover your relation to them? Is this an option that FTDNA provides? (I wouldn't know, I have yet to actually test myself with them)

And yes, I also joined the AlpGen project and contacted Chris. Yet both Gareth (from the T project) and Chris have not responded.

I checked out the snp map for L446 on semargl, very interesting. How did T (L131, P322, P328, and L446) get that far north? Also, what are your opinions on the origins/locations of T and it's subclades? Would L446 be a marker characteristic of Neolithic peoples entering Central and Northern Europe via the Danube?
 
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How did you discover your relation to them? Is this an option that FTDNA provides? (I wouldn't know, I have yet to actually test myself with them)

And yes, I also joined the AlpGen project and contacted Chris. Yet both Gareth (from the T project) and Chris have not responded.

I checked out the snp map for L446 on semargl, very interesting. How did T (L131, P322, P328, and L446) get that far north? Also, what are your opinions on the origins/locations of T and it's subclades? Would L446 be a marker characteristic of Neolithic peoples entering Central and Northern Europe via the Danube?

I wrote to them. In ftdna there are for each individual, an email icon, a note icon and 2 others

Chris will reply , earlier than gareth....sometimes you need to email other contact instead of Gareth....I think other guy is Finnish

yes I presume the danube is one avenue, there are also T in estonia, so up the dniepr river and other could be a view. I believe T was part of the hunter gatherers with some farming of late. Some believe T was hunter and herders.

Since you are positive L446 , you will be negative P322 and P328 ...................nat geo2 does not give ftdna any negative markers
 
But I wonder if it's possible that T came along with the Indo-Europeans (i.e. Celts, Italics, etc.) as they expanded through Eastern Europe and the Balkans (being "picked up" and carried along with their migrations from the steppes and Black Sea areas)...Or if the T of the Alpine area (L446) was displaced into the mountains due to the invading Indo-Europeans (namely Celts and Gauls), as seen in other peoples of the area, namely regarding one of the competing theories for the origins of the Rhaetians of northern Italy and Switzerland.

I am trying to wrap my head around all the numerous theories. Thanks.
 
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Has there ever been a study that calculates the ages of the haplotypes of the other subclades of T? Like the TMRCA of P322/P327/P328 and L466? I know Mendez, et al. (http://www.familytreedna.com/PDF/MendezHumBiol2011.pdf) computes them for P326, M184, M70, P77, and L131. Or what about the other haplotypes in Europe, to understand when they actually entered the continent (i.e. early Neolithic farmers, pastoralists, or hunter-herders; Bronze Age migrants; classical times [Romans, Greeks, Arabs, etc.]; Jewish Diaspora, etc.)
 
But I wonder if it's possible that T came along with the Indo-Europeans (i.e. Celts, Italics, etc.) as they expanded through Eastern Europe and the Balkans (being "picked up" and carried along with their migrations from the steppes and Black Sea areas)...Or if the T of the Alpine area (L446) was displaced into the mountains due to the invading Indo-Europeans (namely Celts and Gauls), as seen in other peoples of the area, namely regarding one of the competing theories for the origins of the Rhaetians of northern Italy and Switzerland.

I am trying to wrap my head around all the numerous theories. Thanks.

Celts came down into the alps from central germany, Gauls came from swiss and french areas ( from the west ). Raetians are stated as speaking a branch of west-semetic language , akkadian ( assyrian ).......!?


Natgeno2 states basal origins of L131 as Caucasus and south germany.............they state a migrational link ( path)

eupedia states
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA.shtml

I have no issue with your theories............
 
Has there ever been a study that calculates the ages of the haplotypes of the other subclades of T? Like the TMRCA of P322/P327/P328 and L466? I know Mendez, et al. (http://www.familytreedna.com/PDF/MendezHumBiol2011.pdf) computes them for P326, M184, M70, P77, and L131. Or what about the other haplotypes in Europe, to understand when they actually entered the continent (i.e. early Neolithic farmers, pastoralists, or hunter-herders; Bronze Age migrants; classical times [Romans, Greeks, Arabs, etc.]; Jewish Diaspora, etc.)

I can only imagine L446 to have always appeared as 1 part of the L131 branch but was never "discovered"...........Its like the new Y tests being done.....new SNPs are being found in certain Haplotypes that have always been there.
 
I have also T-L131

I like to share informs
My ancestors are both from de Baque Country
 
@Samaniego oh wow! You will be the first person from Spain that has T-L131 that I have into contact with! I too have Basque ancestry, but on my paternal grandmother's side. My earliest paternal ancestor that I can get a hold of is my four-times great grandfather, Luis Fundora Miranda, born about 1809 in Cuba. We still don't know the exact origin of our surname (Funddora) and we suspect his ancestors may have come from Spain or Europe in general. I have L446 which is downstream of L131 and is not found at all in Spain.
 
@Samaniego oh wow! You will be the first person from Spain that has T-L131 that I have into contact with! I too have Basque ancestry, but on my paternal grandmother's side. My earliest paternal ancestor that I can get a hold of is my four-times great grandfather, Luis Fundora Miranda, born about 1809 in Cuba. We still don't know the exact origin of our surname (Funddora) and we suspect his ancestors may have come from Spain or Europe in general. I have L446 which is downstream of L131 and is not found at all in Spain.

you stated you have T-CTS11984 which is downstream from L446 ( Its one of the 5 sub-branches of L446 ). Your branch is Tyrolese/Trentino/Grison group..........I do not know why you are thinking its Spanish. You ancestors most likely left for the new world in the mid 18th Century.
 
@fundora

My natgen 2 marker is CTS8862 , which is another step lower in the branch than your CTS11984
 
After some discussion with project managers,
due to the fact I do not have T-M184 as part of my ydna marker, but have the other one, T-M272, then it was said I am not via the M-184 mesopotamian line but the North Caucasus line ( only basal M272 found currently is stated as an Avar).
But then the 6th century Avars is too late for me, but still, it must be someone from this area in the bronze-age ( or before) that moved to the alps.

I do not know what to make of this
 
Wait, how did you know it was one of the 5-sub-branches? Where did you find this information? I would greatly appreciate this, Sile.

I didn't think it was Spanish. All I can guess at right now was that the parents of my earliest known paternal ancestor were Spanish, as most Cubans are. I have yet to pinpoint my exact origins. Thanks for your input! :)
 
Oh, did you recently test with Nat Geno? I can't remember if you said in a past post, it's been about a month or more since I have been active on Eupedia.

And this is interesting information!!! :D
 
After some discussion with project managers,
due to the fact I do not have T-M184 as part of my ydna marker, but have the other one, T-M272, then it was said I am not via the M-184 mesopotamian line but the North Caucasus line ( only basal M272 found currently is stated as an Avar).
But then the 6th century Avars is too late for me, but still, it must be someone from this area in the bronze-age ( or before) that moved to the alps.

I do not know what to make of this

I too am only positive for M272.
 

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