Politics Should Crimea be an independent country? (Russian-Ukrainian conflict)

[Dagne]

Lithuania supports Ukraine because we have a common history of being in the same state (Lithuanian Grand Duchy) then being occupied by Russia many times, the last time before the WWII (like the Western Ukraine), and also because Lithuania lived in the CCCP and can well understand how this empire works. Believe me, it is a full depression to live in a country which is run by KGB, unless of course one gets fully brainwashed. When I see Russians in huge 'anti Maidan' rallies all carrying flags in a unified manner, groups in same sort of uniforms, all thinking alike (or at least saying the same) about how wicked the retched Western Imperialism is... it sounds so much deja vu back from the 1980-ies...

 

[ElHorsto]

Lithuania supports Ukraine because we have a common history of being in the same state (Lithuanian Grand Duchy) then being occupied by Russia many times, the last time before the WWII (like the Western Ukraine), and also because Lithuania lived in the CCCP and can well understand how this empire works. Believe me, it is a full depression to live in a country which is run by KGB, unless of course one gets fully brainwashed. When I see Russians in huge 'anti Maidan' rallies all carrying flags in a unified manner, groups in same sort of uniforms, all thinking alike (or at least saying the same) about how wicked the retched Western Imperialism is... it sounds so much deja vu back from the 1980-ies...

You live in a country run by KGB? You are the one who sound like someone from the 80s. I'm sure time will tell who was actually brainwashed. I just hope there will be enough people left to see it.

Anyway, my point is that Lithuania can not act in this way, because it is a NATO member. If it does, it means NATO is officially participating in the Ukraine war. Now Russia can claim the right to do the same.

 

[ElHorsto]

Ukraine's subject will last at least a decade,

Maybe. If Europe keeps failing to make european policy, this conflict has excellent chance to spread widely. Nuland's famous "F*** the EU" could mean a lot.

 

[Dagne]

El Horsto, each NATO country decides individually how they want to support Ukraine. The EU and NATO fully supports this individual choice. Lithuania's support to Ukraineis symbolic, Lithuania does not have any tanks or warplanes or any other heavy weaponry, so the help is in something like optical parts. Nevertheless, it is very important to show this support to Ukraine, which is in a very difficult position now defending their country.
Regarding Russia revenging - beware that Russia attacks not because of something, but when they see an opportunity. And they will always have a justification of their aggressive actions no matter what.
Unfortunately, Russia has been run by KGB man since 2000, has it not?

Let's watch what happens with Mariupol now. If Russian forces get to it, the only reason is more land grab, allowing a land passage from Russia to the Crimean peninsula. Everyone understands that it would be disastrous for the city (of around half million) if the Russian army launches serious attacks- peaceful people would suffer greatly, both those of Ukrainian ethnic background and Russian alike. But Russia would not care, they will continue spreading their lies and propaganda to the extent that some people in Russia now honesty think that their country is being attacked by Ukrainians… and not vice versa. Remember there is no independent mass media in Russia now.

 

[ElHorsto]

Concerning this article "Putin will target the Baltic next, Defence Secretary warns", now this:

Nazi torch march in Estonia:
https://twitter.com/BungeeWedgie/status/570274877682413568
Estonia has 25% russian minority. If someone shoots, I bet Russia will be blamed.

and

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...army-parade-300-yards-from-Russia-border.html
I wonder whom they address given that Narva has 87% russian inhabitants.

 

[Yetos]

If people prefer to vote for different candidates it does not mean the civil war. In other countries too there are regular differences in how the regions/cities vote, but it does not lead to a civil war. Think of Mariupol now. Locals may disagree regarding political parties and other issues, but without Russian war machine the city will remain peaceful. Unfortunately, Moscow are drawing more and more forces across the border and it does not promise anything good. Look, it is recent - Russian army units with " Tornado" getting into the Ukrainian territory... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHtPFV0yJjY It was filmed by Finnish journalists.

Think in comparisons - what would you think if France decided that some region in Spain was much closer to France and started sending its army, so that the region could declare independence (whilst with the French army on ground) and then to stard the so called "a civil war" in Spain?

Marioupolis must be like Hamburg, or Swiss, an Indipendent small state away from war, open to both West ukraine and East Ukraine, and a Red Cross base
Marioupolis is neither Ukraine neither Russia to enter that conflict, is Greek, it the place where Soviets and other circumstances forced the last Crimean and N Pontic Greeks to settle in order to control them.

 

[ElHorsto]

El Horsto, each NATO country decides individually how they want to support Ukraine. The EU and NATO fully supports this individual choice. Lithuania's support to Ukraineis symbolic, Lithuania does not have any tanks or warplanes or any other heavy weaponry, so the help is in something like optical parts. Nevertheless, it is very important to show this support to Ukraine, which is in a very difficult position now defending their country.
Regarding Russia revenging - beware that Russia attacks not because of something, but when they see an opportunity. And they will always have a justification of their aggressive actions no matter what.
Unfortunately, Russia has been run by KGB man since 2000, has it not?

Let's watch what happens with Mariupol now. If Russian forces get to it, the only reason is more land grab, allowing a land passage from Russia to the Crimean peninsula. Everyone understands that it would be disastrous for the city (of around half million) if the Russian army launches serious attacks- peaceful people would suffer greatly, both those of Ukrainian ethnic background and Russian alike. But Russia would not care, they will continue spreading their lies and propaganda to the extent that some people in Russia now honesty think that their country is being attacked by Ukrainians… and not vice versa. Remember there is no independent mass media in Russia now.

I disagree with almost everything. I'll leave your opinion uncommented and accept it as your opinion.

 

[Yetos]

El Horsto, each NATO country decides individually how they want to support Ukraine. The EU and NATO fully supports this individual choice. Lithuania's support to Ukraineis symbolic, Lithuania does not have any tanks or warplanes or any other heavy weaponry, so the help is in something like optical parts. Nevertheless, it is very important to show this support to Ukraine, which is in a very difficult position now defending their country.
Regarding Russia revenging - beware that Russia attacks not because of something, but when they see an opportunity. And they will always have a justification of their aggressive actions no matter what.
Unfortunately, Russia has been run by KGB man since 2000, has it not?

Let's watch what happens with Mariupol now. If Russian forces get to it, the only reason is more land grab, allowing a land passage from Russia to the Crimean peninsula. Everyone understands that it would be disastrous for the city (of around half million) if the Russian army launches serious attacks- peaceful people would suffer greatly, both those of Ukrainian ethnic background and Russian alike. But Russia would not care, they will continue spreading their lies and propaganda to the extent that some people in Russia now honesty think that their country is being attacked by Ukrainians… and not vice versa. Remember there is no independent mass media in Russia now.

NATO OTAN is a dead organisation,
it can not act in terrorists like IS or African Boco-Haram, and will start war with Russia or china?
simply play the roll of a pupet in the game, in order to honor the alliances of WW2
it exist cause serve a roll in Western policies.

be smart
West Ukraine finds big support from Germany, not USA,
Deutschland's energy lines pass through Ukraine, but if other lines drive energy elsewhere, we could see many changes,
for example Turkey, if more energy is given soon can overpass many EU countries, which we consider as great industrials (old G7)
the Timoschenko case, do you remember? the deals with Gazprom?

you are dealing with Gazprom!!!! not with Russia
if Gazprom switch off pipes, how much energy EU will lose?

did you notice that in Ukraine they both bomb the cities, but not the pipe-lines?
they shoot down planes, but did not close a single pipe-line

 

[Ike]

Because what is good and beneficial lasts. Crap disintegrates quickly.

Russian Empire lasted for centuries, does it mean you think it was good? It must have been good from your point of view, since it needed an "Imperialism, the Highest State of Capitalism" writer to bring it down.

 

[Yetos]

lets look little bit behind,

1932-1935 7 000 000 to some estimated died from Hunger due to Stalin choices, mostly in Ukraine i think it was called 'volondomir' although I am wrong maybe
1960's Crimea is given gift to ukraine, and ukraine is pushed as industrial and turist developement runs there

I think they decided long time ago, who they want.
they want both, but in different areas.

 

[LeBrok]

This picture explains why there is civil war. Election results Timoshenko - Yanukovich:



So any ideas from Kiev? Ukrainian TV: 1,5 Million Must Be Exterminated

Oh, one journalist said that, so certainly now Kiev government needs to act on it. Perhaps I should check german news and see what one journalist thinks about German minorities. By this we will know what Merkel plans for them.
I think this is how your conspiracy theory starts. One guy said...

 

[LeBrok]

So all Crimeans were Russian citizens from 200 years.

Except that two new generations grew up in Ukraine. Don't you stretch the truth too much, lol? How many Tatars voted? Ukrainians? To get to 83% all tatars and half Ukrainians needed to vote for Russia! Can't you see how ridiculous it is?!

So Russia has much better economy than Ukraine. Wages in Russia were three time higher than in Ukraine back then.
Do you notice something?

And this would sway Ukrainians to vote for Russia? Maybe Tatars? Did you notice that there were no Argentineans in Falklands to vote for Argentina? I have no idea how you can argue any point here.
Still good point why Russian "friendship" wasn't working for Ukraine. It was right for them to try something new.

No. And do you remember that the Tatar leader claimed that the Tatars would not participate in the referendum?
It seems you seriously try to convince me that 97% per 83% turnover are "farce" and 89% per 100% are no farce. (assuming you trust PEW, or does "P" in PEW stand for Putin? GFK is even higher, but too new.)
That means that your claim is based on 14% difference only. Not convincing at all, but ok, let's see from where the 14% might come from:

The Tatar leader claimed that the 12% Tatars do not participate in that referendum. So it is safe to assume the biggest "nay"-sayer group is already within the 17% non-participants, leaving more "yes"-sayers within the rest.

Now add up your numbers and try to get to 83% of participation.

In maximum case, already only these Tatars (12%) come close to the 14%. Since I do not believe that all Tatars were not participating (50% came to vote later in the afternoon), let's assume 6%. Let's not be mean and assume also that those tatars who voted were 50% "nay"-sayers, so that leaves 3%. So 14%-3% remains 11% to explain:

You still need half Ukrainians to vote for Russia. Good luck.

According to russian sources 20000 out of 22000 ukrainian soldiers from Crimea were joining the russian army (92%; it would explain why there was no fight). Since the source is russian, let's not be mean and assume that only 50% of Ukrainians were "yes"-sayers, which would be 12%. Since 12% is already more than 11%, already here is nothing left to argue why the referendum would be a farce. It should be even higher than 97%.

You really believe it right? And all Ukrainians and Tatars who decided to vote, voted yes except just 3%. Not mentioning that this was a difficult political situation, and Russian intimidation of Ukraine. Almost all went voting and all voted for Russia. Plus, Putin KGB agent running the show, and Russian military base is there worth hundreds of billions in very strategic location. This is beyond ridiculous.

Thank you for showing that already in 2008 the majority wanted to join Russia. What's your point?

Still far away from 83% support.

I don't know. Do you?

Exactly what he did now. Russian strategic military base is there worth tons of money. That's why Putin didn't leave it to a chance, to the referendum gamble. He took Crimea and faked the referendum to show some legitimacy in the eyes of the world. Obviously convinced many like you. The ones who really want to believe it.

I don't mind if referendum in any country is made, under classical guidelines and international overseeing. If Scotts or Catalans want to be independent or Crimeans or Donbass to join Russia it is FINE with me. But it has to be done right in honest and transparent manners. This did not happen in Crimea. This referendum is invalid.
I'm sure if it was done in proper way, Crimea would be Russian legally, and we wouldn't have had this discussion.

 

[LeBrok]

I didn't mean Ukrainians, but Lithuania. They are so eager to meddle in Ukraine, despite it's not their business, and contrary to what EU decided (at the moment!).

What do you mean by not their business? What two independent countries do together by mutual consent is their business, and only their business. Actually it is not Russian business to dictate what independent countries do or not. It is the best example of your backward thinking.

If they continue like this, they will become combatting party in the Ukraine conflict against Russia.

This is conflict against Ukraine not Russia. Russian tanks are fighting in Ukraine. There are no Ukrainian tanks or even Ukrainian terrorist's attacks in Russia.

Therefore they will be treated like an enemy eventually. This is basic military logic which every country applies.

Wow, you are late with your logic. Lithuania, Poland and now Ukraine are treated like enemies for a some time now.

I'm so glad you are not running Germany. I would be afraid that Eastern Europe disappears again under new Ribbentrop-Molotov pact.

 

[LeBrok]

Russian Empire lasted for centuries, does it mean you think it was good?

What do you mean, Russian Empire was bad? There was no better alternative at this time. You could change Russian Empire for a Prussian one, that's it.

It must have been good from your point of view, since it needed an "Imperialism, the Highest State of Capitalism" writer to bring it down.

How do you explain that British Empire, the biggest in the world and the center of capitalism, disintegrated?
Capitalism is an economic system (not a political one) and has nothing to do what some monarchs imagine to be, an emperor or not. I'm sure you can implicate all economic and political systems taking part in Empires.
What was the economic system of Soviet Empire?

 

[Yetos]

I'm so glad you are not running Germany. I would be afraid that Eastern Europe disappears again under new Ribbentrop-Molotov pact.

That might be another truth in subject.

 

[LeBrok]

Said news from Russia today. A great man, a honest man, anti-Putin and anti-corruption activist Boris Nemtsov has been killed. It happened just a day before scheduled "anti war in Ukraine" demonstration in Moscow. He was killed in assassination style, shot 4 times in his back.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31669061

Nemtsov in peace rally after occupation of Crimea.

Putin has built Nazi like state, where mass media are government controlled, brave journalists bitten, uneasy politicians killed, economy in hands of corrupt oligarchs. Ironically all this mess is blamed on, external enemies, the Western Imperialism, in line with old Soviet Union style propaganda, and so familiar to KGB agent Putin.

 

[Ike]

Said news from Russia today. A great man, a honest man, anti-Putin and anti-corruption activist Boris Nemtsov has been killed. It happened just a day before scheduled "anti war in Ukraine" demonstration in Moscow. He was killed in assassination style, shot 4 times in his back.

Smart move, whoever did it. If we had dealt with CIA spies that way, we could have avoided the war, destruction, occupation and thousands of dead.

 

[mihaitzateo]

Just want to ask forgiveness to people here ,for calling whole nations various nasty names or throwing with accusations to people here.
Will not get involved further in this thread.

 

[Yetos]

I would like to post something about diplomacy, hate, and non morality of politicians from twitter that 'run/twit' these days
THE FUTURE OF CRIMEA AND UKRIANE IS UPON SUCH MINDS
WITH OUT SAYING THAT PUTIN IS BETTER

Joe Koening USA ambassador
<< What do people in #Cyprus think about the week in Russia as seen from here? Anastasiades visit and statements, #Nemtsov assassination?>>

and the answer from a Cypriot citizen

<< Ambassador @AmbJohnKoenig I don't like Crimea annexation as much as I don't like Turkey invading #Cyprus. Nor #Nemtsov, #JFK or #MLK assns. >>


and from another politician

Rutger Kriek

<< @AmbJohnKoenig Having said this, #Cyprus has a point in arguing that the West, esp. US, always tends to favour Turkey and cover its actions >>
<< @AmbJohnKoenig #Cyprus story is that West never helped, whereas Russia did. But did Russia or West safe Cyprus from bankruptcy thru bailout >>



IS UKRAINE FOLLOWING THE FAITH OF CYPRUS?
Sorry but from the times of Timoshenko when she signed the treaty with Gazprom, I believe Yes


in Cyprus they divided them making new borders
in Kossovo they unite tottaly different nations !!!!!! in order not to change borders
in Ukraine they will divide them making new border lines
and the story goes on

merchants of nations

PS
@ Lebrok,
that is answer to your anti-Putin feelings, which might be reasonable, and acceptable, I admit your nightmares, are also my fear in subject.
but the other side is not inoccent also.
by reading the above I believe you understandthat WEST is also and same degree Guilty
remember IS Libya Nigeria
their main reason is war industry, not humanitation,
the ex -USSR collapse, but what profit had the banks? or the war industry?
in Yugoslavian split, what profit they had? old bombs and time expired depleted uranium were used,
in Albanian 'pyramid' riots we notice huge quantities of guns decades old came to surface,
global peace does not promote war industry profits,
lokk at Libya and IS, they have and they spend millions in moder warfare weapons,
after the shock of US leihman bro US can not affort to spend money to make wars to move the gun industry, so pulled back and let others to do the wars,
FEW MONTHS BEFORE THE WEST UKRAINE PRESIDENT DECLARED THAT HE IS GOING TO BUY A HUGE QUANTITY OF MODERN WARFARE GUNS,
do we understand what that means?
Besides here in balkans, we expect soon another war,

besides we trade gas and Euro, lets trade and some guns, and make a new rippentrop/molotov, only this time we take their markets their money and factories, not their lands as in Poland.
let them die blaming each other, not us.

 

[LeBrok]

Ukraine Showcases Captured Russian Military Hardware

The military hardware currently on display in Kiev includes a Russian T-64 tank captured on June 13, 2014, during a battle between Ukrainian government troops and separatist rebels outside the eastern Ukrainian town Slavyansk. According to a Ukrainian information placard accompanying the display, the tank was never a part of the Ukrainian military, underscoring its Russian provenance.

I doubt that Russia supplied Ukraine with drones.

http://dailysignal.com/2015/03/06/ukraine-showcases-captured-russian-military-hardware/