Politics Should Crimea be an independent country? (Russian-Ukrainian conflict)

The biggest ignorance is to think that one lives in Yugoslavia, lol.
Sadly for everyone, but it is true. And you attitude towards that issue show how much you value the law.


Russian attack submarine slipped past US Navy and patrolled Gulf of Mexico for weeks undetected
Yes we know. It was always like that. US submarines patrolling near Russia and China, while Russians somewhere near the American continent. Nothing changed much since 1950. The author of the article is doing the same thing you did in #505. The problem are NATO forces, that are pushing their rocket shield towards Russia, and blaming Russia for feeling anxious about that.


Oh, you mean a concept of borders, not the real thing that you can touch. So is money, marriage, god, church and even Yugoslavia.
Who cares about Yugoslavia? I surely don't. But I am no hypocrite to say that it does'n not exist just because I don't like it.
Would you approve of rape, just because you don't like someone? If you heard that someone you dislike was raped, would you consider that a crime? More than that, if a man killed you family and was incarcerated, and you hear he's been raped in prison, would you consider that a crime? Or you would approve of what is happening just because you hate him so much? You or I may dislike or hate Yugoslavia much as we like, but that doesn't give us the right to do unlawful acts on it.

Hypocrite supports two options?! You mean hypocrite supports one option but pretends to support the other?
Yes, hypocrite who says he is for democracy, but in reality supports fascism. And how do you manage to do it? By applying double standards to the same situations. It can be either this way or the other way with you. MIhaitzateo gave you a clear parallel between Crimea and Kosovo. But your decision depends on what suits your political agenda...
 
Russia is not a rising empire and is neither a threat to NATO states,any mentally sane person can see this.
Yes, they don't have a chance of becoming strong empire, but they have aspiration to become one. Did you see the recent survey from Russia? 80% of Russians want Russia to be powerful empire again.
Maybe if US and UE would have not imposed embargo after Crimea joined Russia,Putin would have not been involved in supporting separatists from Eastern Ukraine.
It doesn't matter what other countries do. Russians want empire and elected Putin, who is acting as strong dictator who will lead them to new Russian Empire. All recent actions of Russia confirm and in line with this philosophy.

Anyway,what is the result now:
India,China and Brasil taking big advantage from trade with Russia,which trade was made with US and Europe in the past and also taking advantage from trade with US and UE,trade that US and EU were making with Russia in the past.
US,Russia,European Union countries have a lot to loose from this embargo,China,India and Brazil have lots to win.
Yes, but Russia is going to lose the most, especially the rich european markets, and would need to sell cheap to developing countries. At the end of a day Russia will turn into China's backyard. Russia will also lose much of European investments, so it will lead to more investments from China. This will also push Russia into Chinese hands even more.

Russians should start to be what they are ,almost same people with almost same language and start living in brotherhood.
I know, it should be exactly as you said. Try explaining this to Putin and make him act as a friend and Russia as a big brother to smaller European countries. All we need is Russian friends! Unfortunately, Putin and most Russians have different goals than the rest of Europe. That's why they are on collision course.
 
Here LeBrok watch this movie of what an-ex congressman from US,Ron Paul is saying about how Clinton put some US forces to bomb Serbia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-Ha1B37v00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-Ha1B37v00 Normal politics. Exactly what opposition will say against ruling party.

Now,Obama has started a movement against Putin,because is clear that Obama was involved in the movement from Ukraine.
Please show me that Obama was not involved in over-throwing the regime of Egypt and now we have a fundamentalist regime in Egypt and a country that is not stable.
Same happened in Syria.Because for Syria is clear that Obama was involved he even wanted to send NATO troops to fight on the side of the rebels from Syria who are linked with Al-Qaeda.
Are you sure that you are pro-European,mate?
Because I do not see how European people,who are as days are passing less and less can profit with wars between them.
Now let me see,what you are saying,start a war against Russia (with Russians being white,caucasian european people) which besides losses of mostly Europeans lives on both sides will lead to chaos in both Russia and Europe and US.
At least I know Obama is at most half white,but how about you?
So let me see,Indians,which already have over 1 billion people of their race,have the right to prosper,Chinesse,same,but Europeans,well they should start a major war between them.
Only a non-european or a mentally ill European is thinking like this.
Not use what is your point? You addressed too many issues, can you concentrate on one?

And here what Ron Paul is saying about how Obama is escalating the situation and is ordering sanctions over sanctions,for Russia.
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archive...why-won’t-obama-just-leave-ukraine-alone.aspx
What is Ron Paul saying about Clinton bombing of Serbia:
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archive...about-the-humanitarian-war-on-yugoslavia.aspx
They bommed Serbia and war ended. How bad is that? Would you rather like Serbs to conquer Bosnia and kill many more thousand of people? The decision and hindsight says that Clinton made a good decision.

Some Ukrainians racists have no shame in blaming Russians that they heavily mixed with Fino-Ugrian people .
These Ukrainian racists are mentally ill people,because Feno-Ugrian are clearly Europeans and the fact that Russians have plenty of Feno-Ugrian ancestry does not make them less Europeans.
These Ukrainians are mentally ill people,is clear.
I hope they will get better at their minds and stop with their idiocy.
I am also sorry that Finns and Estonians did not saw how Ukrainians racists are blaming Russians,for their mixing with Fino-Ugrian people.

So what do I see is some idiotic presidents of US,both Clinton and even more idiot Obama who are doing acts just to provoke Russia and to which acts,Russia does not responds,or responds with a light measure - for example recent embargo that Russia put on US and EU food.
Much better than idiotic Putin attacking Russia neighbors and getting Russia in deep economic crisis.
 
Sadly for everyone, but it is true. And you attitude towards that issue show how much you value the law.
That's your problem, Mr. black and white. Life is more difficult than this and needs elastic approaches very often, especially when it comes to conflicts. But I guess you would rather drag war for many more years and kill whoever didn't want to surrender, because they broke the Yugoslavian law. Bravo.



Yes we know. It was always like that. US submarines patrolling near Russia and China, while Russians somewhere near the American continent. Nothing changed much since 1950. The author of the article is doing the same thing you did in #505. The problem are NATO forces, that are pushing their rocket shield towards Russia, and blaming Russia for feeling anxious about that.
Seems like more countries side with EU and US. Russia is almost alone, so no wonder the shield is tightening up. Now they've alienated a biggest friend they could have, the Ukraine. Way to go Russia!


Who cares about Yugoslavia? I surely don't.
And for that reason you use Yugoslavian flag with your avatar???!!! lolololol

But I am no hypocrite to say that it does'n not exist just because I don't like it.
Still no reason to use it's flag. Unless you care...
Would you approve of rape, just because you don't like someone? If you heard that someone you dislike was raped, would you consider that a crime? More than that, if a man killed you family and was incarcerated, and you hear he's been raped in prison, would you consider that a crime? Or you would approve of what is happening just because you hate him so much? You or I may dislike or hate Yugoslavia much as we like, but that doesn't give us the right to do unlawful acts on it.
Did you realise that you wandered again into dark sexual subject? Are you sure you don't have an issue with it? Do you still think it is the sick world around, or maybe it is just in your head?


Yes, hypocrite who says he is for democracy, but in reality supports fascism. And how do you manage to do it? By applying double standards to the same situations.
What, I'm a fascist supporter because I'm hypocrite???!!! Can you work on your logic today and word sentences accordingly, especially if you want to deal with touchy subject. I'm sure you crossed a line here, and I'm losing patience with you.
 
That's your problem, Mr. black and white. Life is more difficult than this and needs elastic approaches very often, especially when it comes to conflicts. But I guess you would rather drag war for many more years and kill whoever didn't want to surrender, because they broke the Yugoslavian law. Bravo.
No, again, you're making a false dilemma argument. There was absolutely no need for the war the start. In fact, war did start because EU intervened. The federal government was already falling apart, the JNA had no funding, the republics were already heavily orientated on their own business. If there wasn't for the war that EU started, the country would probably fall apart peacefully during the same decade.

Seems like more countries side with EU and US. Russia is almost alone, so no wonder the shield is tightening up.
Are you telling me that this should be some sort of an argument? I don't care who sided who. Even if the whole world, including Russia sided against Andora, that doesn't make them right.

Now they've alienated a biggest friend they could have, the Ukraine. Way to go Russia!
"Now we've alienated the biggest friend they could have, the Ukraine. Way to go CIA!"

And for that reason you use Yugoslavian flag with your avatar???!!! lolololol
Still no reason to use it's flag. Unless you care...
Solely for that reason. That's the difference between me and you LeBrok. I will uphold the law even if it doesn't fit my best interest. You on the other hand are promoting a more selfish approach that doesn't involve the interest of the others.

Did you realise that you wandered again into dark sexual subject? Are you sure you don't have an issue with it? Do you still think it is the sick world around, or maybe it is just in your head?
I did. Did you realize that you did not answer any of my questions. It's easy to ignore the law when we're talking about some imaginary objects like countries and borders, but when I give you an example of a real person and physical violation, you're stunned.

What, I'm a fascist supporter because I'm hypocrite???!!! Can you work on your logic today and word sentences accordingly, especially if you want to deal with touchy subject. I'm sure you crossed a line here, and I'm losing patience with you.

No, you didn't understand. You are a pro-fascist because you've chosen to be so, and you're a hypocrite because you're trying to present yourself as a democrat here on the forum. I guess you would like me to stop revealing your true nature to other members. I will. We'll let them see for themselves who is who and who is supporting what.
 
[/URL] They bommed Serbia and war ended. How bad is that? Would you rather like Serbs to conquer Bosnia and kill many more thousand of people? The decision and hindsight says that Clinton made a good decision.
.

You've just made that up right now? I was in Bosnia at that time. Serbs never wanted to conquer Bosnia.
 
You've just made that up right now? I was in Bosnia at that time. Serbs never wanted to conquer Bosnia.
Sorry my mistake, Serbs (as proper Yugoslavians) thought that Bosnia belonged to them already. They just wanted to kill the bad rebels, the separatists. How is this different from Russian rebels wanting to separate from Ukraine, and Ukraine think this territory is theirs and fights them?
 
Lol LeBrok are you joking?
"Normal opposition"?
Is actually Obama and Clinton who made US to have a very large debt.
And Obama is actually a warmonger,since Bush was forced to go at a war in Irak,while Obama was behind revolutions that crashed half-democratic regimes in both Syria and Egypt and brought fanatic Muslims into power.
And from what I am hearing during "great times" of Obama leadership most affected states from recent embargo are Lithuania and Latvia who had a lot of trade in food products with Russia and average Russians,because they will have their food prices going up.
I am sure that Obama is so "smart" that he thinks Norway should waste most of the oil reserves they have and which they are extracting in a wise mode and give oil to whole EU,at low prices because this is what he wants to do.
Norway,should keep the price of the oil high,because their oil is high quality,compared to Russian oil and not accept Obama to dictate how to get their country bankrupt.
Mr Clinton got a statue in Pristina after bombing Serbia,I think Obama,who is just an idiot,is very concerned that he only has less than 2 years of mandate and he did not got any statue raised:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton_Boulevard
So I guess Obama thinks he should get a statue raised by Ukrainian racists,who because are having more money than Albanian racists,will raise him an even larger statue.
What Obama did will give a large economic boost to Brazil and India,because Brazil will start to sell oil to US,instead of Russian oil they will not buy anymore and food to Russia and India will start to export large quantities of food to Russia ,while buying cheaper oil from Russia,because Russia will not have to whom to sell all oil.
In the mean time,because your are living in Canada which is largest trade partner of US you will see economy going down,because US and Russia had very large,in oil.
For your info,search on inet and see how much investments 2nd US company Exxon Mobile had in Russia and how much of Russia oil was extracted in collaboration with US and EU companies.
 
Sorry my mistake, Serbs (as proper Yugoslavians) thought that Bosnia belonged to them already. They just wanted to kill the bad rebels, the separatists. How is this different from Russian rebels wanting to separate from Ukraine, and Ukraine think this territory is theirs and fights them?

It is not different when you make it sound like that in your head. Problem is, it is not true. You're making totally wrong propositions about things that you obviously have not much knowledge about. You THINK that situation in Yugoslavia was the same as it is in Ukraine now, and you THINK that I am a Serbian, and you THINK I was/am a federalist, and you THINK that Serbs THOUGH something about Bosnia, etc....

Problem is that almost everything you THINK is not true. I simply cannot address the extent of fallacy of your last couple of posts, so I won't.

I see that you're purposely trying to make this more personal than it's useful, by addressing exact peoples, nations and leaders in Yugoslavian conflict, because that would give you some imaginary moral highground if your assumption that I'm a Serbian proves correct. You should really stop assuming nationalities, I've already told you I am not Serbian, and you should stop basing this debate on attacks on my nationality.

To explain you vividly how I felt when I read your post - like a Swiss man that is being told by you that he cannot rationally reason about Gaza question, because Germans have proven they hate Jews, and German is spoken is Switzerland.
 
Lol LeBrok are you joking?

And from what I am hearing during "great times" of Obama leadership most affected states from recent embargo are Lithuania and Latvia who had a lot of trade in food products with Russia and average Russians,because they will have their food prices going up.

I know about Greece
first estimate was 300 000 000 last estimate is above 600 000 000 E plus about 2 000 work places are about to lost, mainly in turistic jobs
Greece is about to ask the EU parliament to open again the 'fruit cemeteries', or to buy the 1/3 as the EU laws say,
that means a mount of 125-200 000 000 E must be given as insurance/secure,
and that is only in Greece, a total estimation has not been calculated yet by EU, but believe me the damage is above 2 000 000 000 probaly reaching 4 000 000 000 per year, and 1/4 - 1/3 must be paid by ECB,
according wall street journal is 8 700 000 000 E to the EU.


agatha.jpg


the above is what Russian expect according their customs and IMF.
it is the lost per capita (non clear)
 
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LeBrok if the rebels accidentally downed the airplane,I do not understand based on what logic average Russian should suffer,because this is what this mutual embargo will do.
I do not know how much trade US had with Russia,but I see US economy already went down last trimester and I do not see other causes than the embargo they imposed on Russia which also made Russians buying less US products.
If Obama likes to starts wars/revolutions and want to be the "most powerful person from the world" he can achieve this in a virtual game,on computer,because there it does not matters that lots of people are dieing in the process resources should be taken from somewhere to be given to military so even more people are suffering and so on.
From what I remember Ukraine had in the past a pro-NATO pro-EU president,Yushchenko and than,Putin did not invaded Crimea neither started to support a separatist movement in Eastern Ukraine.
Why?
Because in that time mr Bush junior was president and mr Bush junior did not became involved in supporting some side in Ukraine,as Obama did.
 
Let me see,this movie published on Reuters.com which suggests that people of Donetsk are killed/in danger of being killed by the idiotic use of heavy weapon by Ukrainian army,is just "Putin propaganda" and is fake.
But from what I know Reuters is very decent news agency.
http://www.reuters.com/video/2014/08/10/donetsk-residents-flee-ukraine-for-mosco?videoId=339098149
In this video is said that people from Donetsk do not have anymore water of electricity and the shelling against the town lasted 8 hours Sunday.
This video,posted earlier is also propaganda?
http://www.reuters.com/video/2014/08/09/taking-cover-in-ukraine?videoId=338778126
Or because the people on Donetsk did not take weapons to fight against Putin mercenaries,some of them should be killed,just to teach them in the future to not do same?
Let me see,if some people in California came with the idea to make California autonomous region,this means US army should have been sent against them and some of them should have been killed?
But that did not happened,as we know.
 
Ukraine is chess square with Syria,

try to understand it,

Obama did not invade Syria, so Putin will not invade Ukraine,
Syria is cut to Assant and IS,
Ukraine will be cut, to Russian friendly and West Ukraine,
Obama gave guns to Syria rabels, Putin will do the same to Ukraine rabels

USA made empargo to Russia, Russia answer to That with Embargo in EU agricultural, America and West Europe will not suffer, Baltic and balkanic countries will be heart.
BUT BOTH SHARE THE NORTH-ARCTIC OCEAN AND SEARCH FOR OIL, THEY SEARCH TOGETHER THERE, what war? what hostility?

Pure Ukrainians, Pure Syrrians, Pure Iraquis, Pure minorities, who cares about them,
who cares about people's will,
they play chess in a global chess table, full of white and black zones,

Le Brok I know your feelings about USA, but it is not innocent, it is so quilty as Russia is, in Ukraine Syria and Iraq,
the only innocent are the ones who die, so each one to blame the other side for massacres,

the game of the GOOD the BAD and the UNGLY, is it worthy to play?
Who earns from it? the media? the gun industry? the warlords?
but the ones who loses are human souls, whose destiny is the hands of nations traders (εμποροι εθνων)

we are living a cold war era again,
 
LeBrok if the rebels accidentally downed the airplane,I do not understand based on what logic average Russian should suffer,because this is what this mutual embargo will do.
What rights have Russians to supply weapons to neighbor Ukraine?

I do not know how much trade US had with Russia,but I see US economy already went down last trimester and I do not see other causes than the embargo they imposed on Russia which also made Russians buying less US products
.
What do you mean went down?
There is not much trade going with Russia. US is almost self sufficient with gas and oil.


If Obama likes to starts wars/revolutions and want to be the "most powerful person from the world"
US is most powerful country in the world. Everybody knows that, so Obama doesn't need to start war to prove it.

he can achieve this in a virtual game,on computer,because there it does not matters that lots of people are dieing in the process resources should be taken from somewhere to be given to military so even more people are suffering and so on.
Exactly, tell it to Putin. Russian military budget is growing while US budget is shrinking. US has spent in 2013 3.8% of its GDP on military, Russia spent 4.4%.


From what I remember Ukraine had in the past a pro-NATO pro-EU president,Yushchenko and than,Putin did not invaded Crimea neither started to support a separatist movement in Eastern Ukraine.
Why?
Because in that time mr Bush junior was president and mr Bush junior did not became involved in supporting some side in Ukraine,as Obama did.
Well, you didn't notice that Ukraine officially asked the West for help. That's why West is involved now.

Can you answer this question:
"Why Russia doesn't have friends among its western neighbours?" (Well, except poor Belarus).
 
LeBrok I do not know what ethnicity are you but for sure you are not Eastern European.
I see that you avoid to answer my questions,considering the genocide against civilian Russians,that was done in Ukraine,by Ukrainian army.
You said that no neighbors love Russia,I have no idea about that but I know for example that Russians are loved by Finns,because Finnish army,at the siege of Sankt Petersburg in WW2 allowed their positions to be used to give food for civilians there.
Finnish army did that while being allied to Nazis,but did not allowed Nazis to control or inspect their positions there.
And you should know that Finland was having strong trade with Russia,so most Finns were actually friends to average Russians.
 
LeBrok I do not know what ethnicity are you but for sure you are not Eastern European.
I'm Polish. Is it ok with you?

I see that you avoid to answer my questions,considering the genocide against civilian Russians,that was done in Ukraine,by Ukrainian army.
Refresh on definition of genocide, please.

You said that no neighbors love Russia,I have no idea about that but I know for example that Russians are loved by Finns,because Finnish army,at the siege of Sankt Petersburg in WW2 allowed their positions to be used to give food for civilians there.
Finnish army did that while being allied to Nazis,but did not allowed Nazis to control or inspect their positions there.
And you should know that Finland was having strong trade with Russia,so most Finns were actually friends to average Russians.
News to me. I'll let our Finnish friends to comment on this. I know many Finnish men were forced to fight on Russian side during WW2. I hope you realize that USSR attacked Finland in 1939.
The Winter War (Finnish: talvisota, Swedish: vinterkriget, Russian: Зи́мняя война́, tr. Zimnyaya voyna)[25] was a military conflict between the Soviet Union and Finland in 1939–1940. It began with the Soviet invasion of Finland on 30 November 1939 (three months after the outbreak of World War II), and ended with the Moscow Peace Treaty on 13 March 1940. The League of Nations deemed the attack illegal and expelled the Soviet Union from the League on 14 December 1939.[26]
Hostilities ceased in March 1940 with the signing of the Moscow Peace Treaty. Finland ceded territory representing 11% of its land area and 30% of its economy to the Soviet Union
This must be the reason why Fins loved Russians and helped them during WW2.

Are you sure you didn't learn history from old communist books?
 
Well, you didn't notice that Ukraine officially asked the West for help. That's why West is involved now..

Yeaaaa, solely for that :)

I remember the times when West bombed Yugoslavia, until citizens changed their minds and "voluntarily" voted a new, self-proclaimed democratic government. The members of that new government were safe in Germany during the bombing - while German bombers spilled bombs all over the country. Of course, they supported bombing which was leading to their rise to power.

It's funny how West changes rules, whenever it fits the need. And they are still marketing the occupational government as democratic one :) Just like they do in Ukraine.
 
Yeaaaa, solely for that :)

I remember the times when West bombed Yugoslavia, until citizens changed their minds and "voluntarily" voted a new, self-proclaimed democratic government. The members of that new government were safe in Germany during the bombing - while German bombers spilled bombs all over the country. Of course, they supported bombing which was leading to their rise to power.

It's funny how West changes rules, whenever it fits the need. And they are still marketing the occupational government as democratic one :) Just like they do in Ukraine.
Lol, just because West is not to your liking it doesn't mean it has to use secretive and undemocratic powers. Many countries moved from totalitarian communism to free West on their own accord. And it is no different in Ukraine now. They asked for help and change, and now we are able and willing to help. How difficult it is to understand?

25 years, from fall of USSR, and Ukraine was still stuck with unreformed socialistic markets, 0 GDP growth, and being "helped" by Russia. Obviously it wasn't working for them, people are fed up and angry and want to try something else. Otherwise it is how you define insanity, to repeat same things over and over expecting different results. Time for a change. The only reason you are against changes in Ukraine is because they want to be friends with the West. Perhaps you should try something new too, what you are teaching here is not working. If not for the West you wouldn't even have a computer and internet, lol.
 

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