Politics Should Crimea be an independent country? (Russian-Ukrainian conflict)

[Alan]

It is none of your business what my age is. "Tatars came to Crimea as immigrants" The Tatars have been in Crimea since 1441, 563 years! They came long before the Russians did, the Russians only came rather recently! They have much to do with Crimea! As the Greeks and Tatars in Crimea are the only current inhabitants who have been in Crimea over 500 years, the Russians only in the past 250 years.

A Turkish-supported regime is occupying the northern part of Cyprus, this is true. However, Cyprus is not Greece, many people in Cyprus are of Greek descent, but Cyprus and Greece are separate countries. I am of Greek descent, I do not support what is happening in northern Cyprus, Greek and Turkish Cypriots, the Greek government, and the Turkish government are negotiating a settlement between all sides.

As to what you call "Northern Kurdistan", I believe you are referring to southeast Turkey. There is no Northern Kurdistan. This region is a fundamental part of the Turkish state. Your people would be better off being a part of Turkey, than receiving independence; as if you do, Southeastern Turkey would destabilise, and become like Iraq. I am not saying that the Kurdish-majority region(s) of Turkey should not have semi- or fully autonomy, which would be good. In addition, when Turkey joins the EU, Kurds will likely have more cultural and linguistic protection due to various treaties and policies employed by The European Union.

And regarding the statement "Turks are immigrants to the region as Tatars are." We have already established that Tatars are not immigrants. It is true that Turks did emigrate to Anatolia, but this happened very long ago. In addition, since the original people of Anatolia (the Greeks), have been ousted from Anatolia (except for some Greeks which did stay, or have come back to Turkey), it is unlikely that Anatolia would be returned to the Greeks, and it will likely stay Turkish. And I am alright with that, as it has been Turkish for a long time.

Also, I am assuming that you are an immigrant! And a recent one at that, the Kurds have not been in The Netherlands for hundreds or thousands of years! Perhaps a few decades. :grin:

Anyhow, this thread is regarding Crimea, not Turkey, there are other threads that are regarding Turkey.

A Kurdish state in "Southeast and East Anatolia" (which is actually North Mesopotamia, Transcaucasus and part of the wider iranian plateau) would destabilize the Near East, but a Tatar state on disputed land between Western and Eastern powers would bring peace to the region. Cut me your illogical arguments, it's full of ignorant hypocritical nonsense. The worst part is that delusional people still believe more influence for Turkey means more influence for the West. Kurdistan is the only reason for hope in that on paper drawn country called Iraq. The reason why Iraq is unstable, is because Iraq as such should have never been a country. And it was never stable to begin with. And you talk about autonomy for Kurds in Turkey as if it is something Turkey is even ready to give.

Also you seem to have not much idea about the history of Crimea. The Tatars appeared roughly at 1400 century AD while Crimea was part of the Kievan Rus around 10th to 11th AD.

By the way just to build up some geographic knowledge. This is traditional (original Greek) Anatolia.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/AnatolieLimits.jpg


What you call East and Southeast Anatolia was always part of the Mesopotamian, Iranian and Caucasian empires and never Greek nor Anatolia.

 

[LeBrok]

Why do you come with such a naive reasoning? Because I'm sure that you know that this reasoning is wrong. Ireland is part of the Anglo-Saxon world.

It was always in sphere of Anglo-Saxon influence and yet till 30 years ago Ireland was the poorest country in Europe. How did they do the trick then?
As you see, being in anglo-saxon sphere doesn't make you automatically well off. Your government needs to make sure your economy is good and financial sector adequate. Success will come and nobody is going to stop you. It is nothing better for Germans or Americans than having new market for their cars and other products. They can't sell them to poor countries, can they? They want you to be rich too, then they make even more money. And off course if your economy is good and producing stuff, they will gladly buy your products too.

How can you compare Singapore with the East European countries? 2 different worlds! Singapore is a 'distribution land', a main port. One of the most important corridors in East Asia.

It is because someone had an idea and made it happened. There are many other cities/countries/islands in Asia in great geographical locations, and yet it was Singapore to make it happened. How did they got rich? Where did they "steal" the money from. Look into their government economic policies for last 40 years and it will become clear to you. It is there, it is not a secret and nobody is going to stop you.

If you want to argument your points, make sure they make sense.

 

[Coolboygcp]

Of course am I. First generation! :grin: And I hope temporary, like my ancestors were immigrants to Russia/Georgia. Outside Kurdistan, Kurds will be always 'immigrants' to their adopted land. Once Kurdistan is established huge Kurdish diaspora in Europe will go back. at this moment Europe is a 'safe haven' for us, the Kurds. We don't try to impose our will to the native people of Europe. We Kurds don't try to steal and Kurdify land of native Europeans, we don't try to convert natives to a different religion, we Kurds don't try to impose our language to native people and eradicate the native people. We're not trying to genocidethe native people of Europe. All those things Turkic thieves did to native people of Eastern Europe and West Asia.

BTW. I assume you’re (most of your ancestors) are immigrants too from Europe who settled in the States. :cool-v:

I thought so. :grin:

Kurdistan will probably never be established, but even if it was, Europe will and is much better. It is better infrastructure-wise, healthcare-wise, economically, more stable, and is much safer. Plus, Europe isn't as hot at Kurdistan, even southern Europe isn't that hot.

Perhaps Iraqi Kurdistan will secede, but I doubt it. Why not stay in Europe?

And then you go into your rhetoric again.

The Turks did do many wrong things in the past, but Kurds have as well. There are dozens of Kurdish terrorist organisations which have attempted to create a Kurdish state by force and blood, who have killed many tens thousands of Turks, Europeans, Westerners, and Middle Easterners. Ever heard of the PKK? Many Kurds have tried to force their ideology upon other ethnic groups, including European ones such as Turks. You are incorrect, once again.

On another note, yes, my ancestors came from different European countries, Britain, Ireland, Greek, Norway, Denmark, France, etc who settles in the States. They were probably considered immigrants when they first came here but then, they became "Americans", after time. If you stay in Europe, you will be considered European after some time passes. Though, it is good to retain your unique culture, etc.

Ever try some of the local Dutch foods like vla, poffertjes, borreltjes, hagelslag, speculoos, speculoospasta, etc? They all sound so delicious!

 

[Alan]

I thought so. :grin:

Kurdistan will probably never be established, but even if it was, Europe will and is much better. It is better infrastructure-wise, healthcare-wise, economically, more stable, and is much safer. Plus, Europe isn't as hot at Kurdistan, even southern Europe isn't that hot.

Perhaps Iraqi Kurdistan will secede, but I doubt it. Why not stay in Europe?

And then you go into your rhetoric again.

The Turks did do many wrong things in the past, but Kurds have as well. There are dozens of Kurdish terrorist organisations which have attempted to create a Kurdish state by force and blood, who have killed many tens thousands of Turks, Europeans, Westerners, and Middle Easterners. Ever heard of the PKK? Many Kurds have tried to force their ideology upon other ethnic groups, including European ones such as Turks. You are incorrect, once again.

On another note, yes, my ancestors came from different European countries, Britain, Ireland, Greek, Norway, Denmark, France, etc who settles in the States. They were probably considered immigrants when they first came here but then, they became "Americans", after time. If you stay in Europe, you will be considered European after some time passes. Though, it is good to retain your unique culture, etc.

Ever try some of the local Dutch foods like vla, poffertjes, borreltjes, hagelslag, speculoos, speculoospasta, etc? They all sound so delicious!

Killed many thousand Turks, Europeans and Middle Easterners? (Turkey is part of the Middle East). Tried to impose our culture on Europeans and others? Isn't being ignorant and lying a reason for being banned? Who told you that stories? Your Turkish friends?

 

[Coolboygcp]

OMG, you never heard of Fukuyama? This is general knowledge. If you even just read 1 article (not mentioning a book) about global geopolitics, you would know him. I know enough about you, I hope for you that you're very young. Sorry for bothering you...

I have read many articles and books regarding global geopolitics. I looked him up, and I agree with some of his ideas, and disagree with some of them as well. You don't have to be snarky about it, you seem to be brainwashed by PKK propaganda.

 

[Alan]

I have read many articles and books regarding global geopolitics. I looked him up, and I agree with some of his ideas, and disagree with some of them as well. You don't have to be snarky about it, you seem to be brainwashed by PKK propaganda.

Please provide a source for your claim of thousand of killed Europeans, Turks and other Middle Easterners by Kurds. And also provide a source for your claim that Kurds impose their culture or forcefully assimilate Europeans into their culture. And I will give you sources which show that Turkish nationalist groups like the Grey Wolves are turning German cities into Turkey. And I will give you sources how influential Turkish personalities talk about how makin the Kurds appear like terrorists by smuggling heroin in their homes.

If you don't have any sources, than your words are not worth a cent.

 

[Goga]

I thought so. :grin:

Kurdistan will probably never be established, but even if it was, Europe will and is much better. It is better infrastructure-wise, healthcare-wise, economically, more stable, and is much safer. Plus, Europe isn't as hot at Kurdistan, even southern Europe isn't that hot.

Perhaps Iraqi Kurdistan will secede, but I doubt it. Why not stay in Europe?

And then you go into your rhetoric again.

The Turks did do many wrong things in the past, but Kurds have as well. There are dozens of Kurdish terrorist organisations which have attempted to create a Kurdish state by force and blood, who have killed many tens thousands of Turks, Europeans, Westerners, and Middle Easterners. Ever heard of the PKK? Many Kurds have tried to force their ideology upon other ethnic groups, including European ones such as Turks. You are incorrect, once again.

On another note, yes, my ancestors came from different European countries, Britain, Ireland, Greek, Norway, Denmark, France, etc who settles in the States. They were probably considered immigrants when they first came here but then, they became "Americans", after time. If you stay in Europe, you will be considered European after some time passes. Though, it is good to retain your unique culture, etc.

Ever try some of the local Dutch foods like vla, poffertjes, borreltjes, hagelslag, speculoos, speculoospasta, etc? They all sound so delicious!

Kurdistan has more oil and gas than the whole Europe, Russia and the US combined. But I don't care how poor or rich Kurdistan will be, as long it will be free and liberated from Arabic, Persian and Turkic occupiers.

I’m very grateful to Dutch people who accepted me into their society and gave me everything, while Kurds don't even have the basic human rights on their native land and land of their ancestors. At this moment the Netherlands is my new home, I spent most of my life in the Netherland and I'm loyal to the Dutch constitution. As long as I'm alive I will try to do all the best for this great country. But Kurdistan was, is and always will be my homeland. To me it is a magical and mythical world where all my ancestors are from. My roots, my soul is from Kurdistan. It has a unique place in my heart and that place is unreplaceable. Kurdistan ismy religion. For me Kurdistan is more important than my parents and even the GOD almighty himself. My soul will not rest until Kurdistan is fully liberated from the occupiers!

You're very multi cultural, much more than I'm, hahaha.

 

[Alan]

Since you don't have sources let me provide one.

Fetullah Gülen, who is one of the most influential persons in Turkey and who has currently a dispute over power with Erdogan (his influence goes beyong high positions in the Turkish secret service. He is that influential that he could place a recorder in Erdogans room and than snip his statements together to use them against Erdogan).

 

[Coolboygcp]

Killed many thousand Turks, Europeans and Middle Easterners? (Turkey is part of the Middle East). Tried to impose our culture on Europeans and others? Isn't being ignorant and a liar a reason for being banned? Who told you that stories? Your Turkish friends?

Kurd

Turkey is a part of Europe and Asia, and is different than Middle Eastern nations. I am not ignorant, it appears that you are the one that is ignorant, my friend. Who told me "that stories"? Reputable sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish–Turkish_conflict

That link for example. And I quote:

The Kurdish–Turkish conflict[note] is an armed conflict between the Republic of Turkey and various Kurdish insurgent groups,[62] which have demanded separation from Turkey to create an independent Kurdistan,[45][63] or to have autonomy[64][65] and greater political and cultural rights for Kurds inside the Republic of Turkey.[66] The main rebel group is the Kurdistan Workers' Party[67] or PKK (Kurdish: Partiya Karkerên Kurdistan), which is considered a terrorist organisation by Turkey, the United States,[68] the European Union[69] and NATO.[70][71] Although insurgents have carried out attacks in many regions of Turkey,[72] the insurgency is mainly in southeastern Turkey.[73] The PKK's military presence in Iraq's Kurdistan Region, from which it launches attacks on Turkey, has resulted in the Turkish military carrying out frequent ground incursions and air and artillery strikes in the region,[74] because the Kurdistan Regional Government claims it does not have sufficient military forces to prevent the PKK from operating.[75] The conflict has particularly affected Turkey's tourism industry[76] and has cost the Economy of Turkey an estimated 300 to 450 billion dollars.[77]

6,653 killed[46][47]
13,327 wounded[48] (On the Turkish side)

Civilian Casualties:
5,687 killed (Turkish claim)[46]
18,000 killed (independent estimate)[51]
Additional 20,000 killed by unknown assailants[48]
Additional 18,000 executed (independent estimate)[52] 7,620 wounded (Turkish claim)[48]
17,000 missing[53][54]
3,000,000+ displaced[55]

Former French ambassador to Turkey Eric Rouleau states:[235]
According to the Turkish Ministry of Justice, along with the 30,000 people killed in military campaigns, 22,500 Turkish Politicians were assassinated between 1984, when the conflict began, and 1998. An additional 1,000 people were reportedly assassinated in the first nine months of 1999.
Abuses by the PKK[edit]
Human Rights Watch has stated the following about the tactics of the PKK::
Consequently, all economic, political, military, social and cultural organizations, institutions, formations—and those who serve in them—have become targets. The entire country has become a battlefield.
The PKK also promised to "liquidate" or "eliminate" political parties, "imperialist" cultural and educational institutions, legislative and representative bodies, and "all local collaborators and agents working for the Republic of Turkey."[236]
Many who died were unarmed civilians, caught in the middle between the PKK and security forces, targeted for attacks by inevitably, PKK suicide bombers.[237]
According to Amnesty International, the PKK killed and tortured Kurdish peasants and its own members in the 1980s. A number of Kurds have been abducted and killed because they were suspected of being "collaborators" or "informers" and it was a common practice for the PKK to kill their whole families.[238]
According to a 1996 report by Amnesty International, "in January 1996 the [Turkish] government announced that the PKK had massacred 11 men near the remote village of Güçlükonak. Seven of the victims were members of the local village guard force".

The PKK was said to be responsible for the other 11,851 people deaths. A total of 13,327 soldiers and 7,620 civilians are said to have been wounded and an additional 20,000 civilians killed by unknown assailants.[48] Only 2,500 people were said to have been killed between 1984 and 1991, while over 17,500 were killed between 1991 and 1995[239]

Research before you accuse someone of ignorance. :win:

 

[Goga]

It was always in sphere of Anglo-Saxon influence and yet till 30 years ago Ireland was the poorest country in Europe. How did they do the trick then?
[/FONT]As you see, being in anglo-saxon sphere doesn't make you automatically well off. Your government needs to make sure your economy is good and financial sector adequate. Success will come and nobody is going to stop you. It is nothing better for Germans or Americans than having new market for their cars and other products. They can't sell them to poor countries, can they? They want you to be rich too, then they make even more money. And off course if your economy is good and producing stuff, they will gladly buy your products too.


It is because someone had an idea and made it happened. There are many other cities/countries/islands in Asia in great geographical locations, and yet it was Singapore to make it happened. How did they got rich? Where did they "steal" the money from. Look into their government economic policies for last 40 years and it will become clear to you. It is there, it is not a secret and nobody is going to stop you.

If you want to argument your points, make sure they make sense.

Sorry, but you don't make any sense! Since the colonization by the British Empire Singapore became a very special place. Even before that it was a important business center. Like Hong Kong.
Like I said earlier Ireland is part of Anglo-Saxon world. Ireland has very close ties with the US (Irish immigrants in the States), speaks the same language, has the same values & culture. Because of the close ties with the US Ireland doesn’t have to fear anything (in relation with their economic policies, like low taxes) from England nor the USA.

 

[Ike]

And read actual news like the BBC instead of The Voice of Russia and Russia Today! The EU is good, The West is good, and Russia and it's allies are the ones that are bad, the ones that sensible nations in the international community do nit respect, because they are all a group of bullies and assholes.

So, why is then EU and West supporting people that are wearing symbols that resemble Nazi Germany symbols?
I accept the theory that it could be coincidence, and that this is just an AC/DC style rock'n'roll symbol...

 

[LeBrok]

Sorry, but you don't make any sense! Since the colonization by the British Empire Singapore became a very special place. Even before that it was a important business center. Like Hong Kong.

Yes and India was in British Empire and special place of a billion people. Why they are not rich?
Special place, yep, that's your economy bordering mysticism.

Like I said earlier Ireland is part of Anglo-Saxon world. Ireland has very close ties with the US (Irish immigrants in the States), speaks the same language, has the same values & culture. Because of the close ties with the US Ireland doesn’t have to fear anything (in relation with their economic policies, like low taxes) from England nor the USA.

So explain to us why this special Anglo-saxon country was poor till 80s? And what do we need to fear? What do Poland need to fear from US or England? Just keep in mind that Polish, Czech, Slovak, Lithuanien and few other economies of easter europen countries grew 3 fold in last 25 years. That's very fast by economic standards and it means they catching up to the west.
I don't see any sign of holding them back, do you?
Amazing stories you tell, more special places...

 

[LeBrok]

So, why is then EU and West supporting people that are wearing symbols that resemble Nazi Germany symbols?
I accept the theory that it could be coincidence, and that this is just an AC/DC style rock'n'roll symbol...

I'm pretty sure we can find fascists in Serbia and any other European country. Does this mean we have to condemn the whole nation because of few?
Looks like you are a big hypocrite!

 

[Coolboygcp]

So, why is then EU and West supporting people that are wearing symbols that resemble Nazi Germany symbols?
I accept the theory that it could be coincidence, and that this is just an AC/DC style rock'n'roll symbol...

The better question is why is Russia treating gays and minorities like the Nazis treated the Jews? :grin:

 

[Coolboygcp]

Yes and India was in British Empire and special place of a billion people. Why they are not rich?
Special place, yep, that's your economy bordering mysticism.

So explain to us why this special Anglo-saxon country was poor till 80s? And what do we need to fear? What do Poland need to fear from US or England? Just keep in mind that Polish, Czech, Slovak, Lithuanien and few other economies of easter europen countries grew 3 fold in last 25 years. That's very fast by economic standards and it means they catching up to the west.
I don't see any sign of holding them back, do you?
Amazing stories you tell, more special places...

If India was still British, it would probably be rich, but they left the British Empire, which was the stupidest decision in the history of India. Had they stayed in the empire, it would not have collapsed, and the world would be much better off. Even your country LeBrok, Canada would be better off.

 

[Coolboygcp]

Since you don't have sources let me provide one.

Fetullah Gülen, who is one of the most influential persons in Turkey and who has currently a dispute over power with Erdogan (his influence goes beyong high positions in the Turkish secret service. He is that influential that he could place a recorder in Erdogans room and than snip his statements together to use them against Erdogan).

Always with Gülen! Everything that happens in Turkey from Gezi Square, to the phonetap scandal is blamed on Gülen! This man cannot do all of these things!

 

[Goga]

Yes and India was in British Empire and special place of a billion people. Why they are not rich?
Special place, yep, that's your economy bordering mysticism.

So explain to us why this special Anglo-saxon country was poor till 80s? And what do we need to fear? What do Poland need to fear from US or England? Just keep in mind that Polish, Czech, Slovak, Lithuanien and few other economies of easter europen countries grew 3 fold in last 25 years. That's very fast by economic standards and it means they catching up to the west.
I don't see any sign of holding them back, do you?
Amazing stories you tell, more special places...

When you had almost no economy and transfer from closed economy to a free market such a relative (in percentage) grow is not an exception!

I'll tell you what will happen if Western Ukraine will become part of the 'Western' world. IMF will lend some money to Ukraine to finance all the necessary and primary things in the country, like the police force. But it will be hard for Ukraine from the very beginning, since it will not get cheap or free gas from Russia. Before this conflict Russia gave gas and oil to Ukraine. After Western Ukraine becomes some how stable the borders will disappear and a lot very poor and cheap Ukrainian labours will look for work in the West European countries. Like it happened to Bulgaria, Romania etc. some countries in the Baltics became pretty wealthy, but countries like Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine will nevers be wealthy countries since they don't have natural recourses and have nothing to offer to the European community. Ukraine is not better than Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, Kosovo etc. Such countries will always be the sick men of Europe, always dependent on rich countries in Europe, you like it or not!

 

[Alan]

Turkey is a part of Europe and Asia, and is different than Middle Eastern nations. I am not ignorant, it appears that you are the one that is ignorant, my friend. Who told me "that stories"? Reputable sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish–Turkish_conflict

That link for example. And I quote:



Research before you accuse someone of ignorance. :win:

PKK is not an excuse against a Kurdish state. Your arguments could come directly from a uneducated Teenage boy. PKK might killed some people but do you really claim the number of killed individuals by PKK even slightly reach that of the Turkish state? If we consider the PKK "terrorist" because these casualties, what are we going to consider Turkey for the 3000 destroyed villages and millions of forcefully resettled Kurds and hundred thousands of killed Kurds?



And once again I repeat, where is your source for the statement that Kurds killed thousands of Europeans.

You sure ain't a radical Turk? I ask because this grade of ignorance was only observed among these kind of people.


I think you should take your own advise and research better instead on posting selective nonsense as usual.

 

[Coolboygcp]

When you had almost no economy and transfer from closed economy to a free market such a relative (in percentage) grow is not an exception!

I'll tell you what will happen if Western Ukraine will become part of the 'Western' world. IMF will lend some money to Ukraine to finance all the necessary and primary things in the country, like the police force. But it will be hard for Ukraine from the very beginning, since it will not get cheap or free gas from Russia. Before this conflict Russia gave gas and oil to Ukraine. After Western Ukraine becomes some how stable the borders will disappear and a lot very poor and cheap Ukrainian labours will look for work in the West European countries. Like it happened to Bulgaria, Romania etc. some countries in the Baltics became pretty wealthy, but countries like Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine will nevers be wealthy countries since they don't have natural recourses and have nothing to offer to the European community. Ukraine is not better than Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, Kosovo etc. Such countries will always be the sick men of Europe, always dependent on rich countries in Europe, you like it or not!

Ukraine has a lot of resources. In the east they have huge coal fields, and in the Black Sea there are huge gas fields that are in Ukraine's territorial waters. If Ukraine harvested these resources, they would have a lot of money! (Though, they will have to get Crimea back to get the gas fields, and keep east Ukraine for the coal).

Also, I was watching Al Jazeera, and there was a commander in the Russian military who was stationed in Crimea, and he said that they were going to be there until 30 March, when they have the referendum concerning the future of the Crimea, and after that they would go back to Russia.

Additionally, Ukraine has recently called a draft on all men under 40, and they have declared war on Russia, so I don't think Russia is leaving on 30 March.

 

[Alan]

Always with Gülen! Everything that happens in Turkey from Gezi Square, to the phonetap scandal is blamed on Gülen! This man cannot do all of these things!

This guy was caught to have deep ties to the Turkish Secret Service. He installed a recorder in the Prime Ministers room. Or do you believe it was Erdogan himself you genius? This Guy has billions of Dollars, thousands of Schools around the World where he teaches and preaches Turkish type of Islam.