Politics Should Crimea be an independent country? (Russian-Ukrainian conflict)

[Yetos]

I don't think there will be WW3, but some revolt in Russia is very likely. At some point people will be disillusioned by Putin's Russia.

since you are Polish, you are concerning about Russia,
since I am Greek, I am afraid more the WEST / Middle EAST,

If I was Sud American, I would talk about Venezouela food suplies :grin:

if you are christian, book of revealations,
THE END IS UPON US !!!!!!


oh do not forget,

JE SUIS CHARLIE


I wonder why this 'fine' guy Osama, oups sorry Obama, is not CHARLIE

 

[LeBrok]

A scary movie, the real one.

There is a very energetic movement of Russian youths in support of Putin. They are called Nashi, Youth Democratic Anti-Fascist Movement "Ours!". This youth party is well top down organized and financed. They stage tens of thousands strong demonstrations intimidating anyone who doesn't like Putin, calling them "the disgrace" of Russia. Ironically they call themselves anti-fascist, yet have strong Nazi character and means of attacking and intimidating the "traitors" of their nation.

A window on this movement through eyes of young Russian politician and journalist.

Kiss Putin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iKj41HgtFk#t=275

 

[ElHorsto]

More scary stuff here from Ukraine:

 

[LeBrok]

All your video shows are the defenseless Russian civilians dying from Ukrainian army attacks. It is baffling then how these civilians can resist these attacks for over a year now? Must be a great mystery?
Who is attacking Mariupol now?

 

[Angela]

So far as I can see this is just Putin trying to keep a warm water port and control of energy pipelines, plus an attempt to distract Russians from a collapsing country, and dressing the whole thing up as some sort of patriotic holy war. The Ukrainians seem to just not want to be part of a Russian hegemony. Brother against brother once again, and more slaughter on both sides. Senseless.

 

[ElHorsto]

So far as I can see this is just Putin trying to keep a warm water port and control of energy pipelines, plus an attempt to distract Russians from a collapsing country, and dressing the whole thing up as some sort of patriotic holy war. The Ukrainians seem to just not want to be part of a Russian hegemony. Brother against brother once again, and more slaughter on both sides. Senseless.

I'm sorry Angela, but this is blatantly conflicting with the facts. Frankly, I have the impression that you did no research about this conflict.

 

[ElHorsto]

All your video shows are the defenseless Russian civilians dying from Ukrainian army attacks. It is baffling then how these civilians can resist these attacks for over a year now? Must be a great mystery?

There are Rebels resisting against Ukrainian army in Eastern Ukraine. That could explain it.

How is attacking Mariupol now?

Maybe the Rebels want to show that they are evil? I don't know. Nevertheless it is telling how much attention this event gets, compared to what happened the whole last year, even with openly admitted intention from Kiev government, look here:

 

[Dagne]

So far as I can see this is just Putin trying to keep a warm water port and control of energy pipelines, plus an attempt to distract Russians from a collapsing country, and dressing the whole thing up as some sort of patriotic holy war. The Ukrainians seem to just not want to be part of a Russian hegemony. Brother against brother once again, and more slaughter on both sides. Senseless.

I fully agree.
Putin's Russia cannot live up to the idea that Russian empire is gone, and that Ukraine is a nation which can decide about its future. Russia (Putin) keeps on attacking its weaker neighbouring countries which refuse to subdue to his will since early 2000, and it is growing worse.

 

[Yetos]

it is bigger than you know and think,

and is not for freedom,
is for money,

remember Julia's agreement with Russian gas and oil sealers,

new energy lines are about to work, and known ones will close.

for your information the 150 000 Greeks in Ukraine are gathered in Marioupolis an area where 50 000 Greeks where send to dwell from Communist era expelling them from their villages, having a small militia, to protect them shelves,
but they can not protect them shelves from bombing

situation is much complicated,

and maybe the dead will be in ukraine, but if the 4rth corridor will finish, Finland will be provider of gas to central europe.
that means that 2nd corridor that pass from Bellarus to baltic might follow the fate of 1rst,


Between Golden Horde and Russian empire, I can not choose, I am far away,
But I choose for a solution with less people harmed,

 

[mihaitzateo]

Poroshenko already suspended paying of pensions and so on in some parts of Eastern Ukraine.
He did that because Ukraine government does not have money.
As simple as that.
I wonder what would have happened if a rebellion would not have started in Eastern Ukraine,how Poroshenko would have been able to pay pensions and salaries?
Excesive capitalism is what destroyed Ukraine and this happens from lots of years,not from just now.
Corruption is something typical to excessive capitalism,that is the thing.

If I would be a pro-Russian person in Eastern Ukraine,I would just leave my house and move in Russia.
If I would be pro-Ukrainian,I would move to Western Ukraine.
If I would be neutral would go in either Western Ukraine or Russia.
And if I would be discriminated in Western Ukraine,cause I would be ethnic Russian,I would go to US ,because in US except some discrimination against Africans,Russians are not discriminated.
Some people are seeing things in black and white,considering what is happening in Eastern Ukraine,they say Russians are bad,Ukrainians are good,population from Eastern Ukraine,which is pro-Russian is bad,while those who are pro-Ukrainian are good.
At this kind of seeing things,I can only seriously lol .
You should think,that if Ukraine would have for example at least the economic prosperity of even Bulgaria,people would not want to go in Russia,or join Russia.
And you should also think about how worse things are in Ukraine,if people still are pro-Russian,cause Russia is hit a lot by sanctions,but even with these lots of sanctions,average person in Russia is living much better than average person in Ukraine.

 

[ElHorsto]

Even top US elites already expose the monstrous intrigue against Russia, check this article from no one less than the CFR: Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault
(it is actually no fault, it is intention)

And it's not Russia who is drenched in debt, cheating by Quantitative Easing etc. Russia was fine until sactions started. Just saying...

 

[ElHorsto]

If I would be a pro-Russian person in Eastern Ukraine,I would just leave my house and move in Russia.
If I would be pro-Ukrainian,I would move to Western Ukraine.
If I would be neutral would go in either Western Ukraine or Russia.
And if I would be discriminated in Western Ukraine,cause I would be ethnic Russian,I would go to US ,because in US except some discrimination against Africans,Russians are not discriminated.

Just want to add some more info. According to the UN from October, there are 824,000 refugees.
"...at least 430,000 were living within Ukraine as of yesterday..."
"...387,000 have fled to neighboring Russia, while 6,600 have applied for asylum in the European Union (EU) as well as 581 in Belarus."

Compared to other conflicts, I think this is a huge amount of refugees.

 

[LeBrok]

Even top US elites already expose the monstrous intrigue against Russia, check this article from no one less than the CFR: Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault
(it is actually no fault, it is intention)

Do you mean that Ukrainians shouldn't have anything to say about their future? What about their choice? Shouldn't it be the most important thing for sovereign nation, to make its own choices, regardless if it pleases Russia or not?

 

[Ike]

Even top US elites already expose the monstrous intrigue against Russia

Even schoolchildren are aware of that. I don't even know where from these people who write otherwise come from. Like they came from Ancient China.

 

[LeBrok]

There are Rebels resisting against Ukrainian army in Eastern Ukraine. That could explain it.

Without "secret" Russian military help, the rebellion would be done and domestic war over.

 

[Ike]

Without "secret" Russian military help, the rebellion would be done and domestic war over.

As same, without "secret" CIA help, there would be no staged elections in Ukraine, no Orange revolution, no war in Ukraine and no NATO soldiers near Russian borders.

 

[Yetos]

by what i read Alexander Zakharchenko plans to to make an army of 100 000 rabels,

that means eternal war in Ukraine,

i dot know if the cube/dice has fallen,
or if Rubicon river is passed,
but seems will be a inner continous war for years,

 

[ElHorsto]

Without "secret" Russian military help, the rebellion would be done and domestic war over.

You can twist the facts as much as you want, without the coup it would not have happened. Right after the coup the genocide was announcend multiple times, so east Ukrainians had the right to defense themselves. First they were asking for federalization, same what Russia proposed, which was and is the most reasonable solution. In turn Kiev claimed that a plan is "in work". For how long will it be in work? So long until east Ukraine has been ethically cleansed such that west Ukrainians get their preferred election result.
The diabolic plan is to torture east Ukrainians until either
1. the east is ethnically cleansed or
2. Putin intervenes openly to stop the ethnic cleansing due to rising pressure within Russia.

In case of 1) not much needs to be done by the west, except moving forward to the next hotspots (Lithuania, Moldavia, Georgia,...). So far Ukraine will remain a biting bulldog on Russia's leg with war as the only economic perspective.
In case of 2) the "western community (=mob)" can portray Putin as "new Hitler" referring to the Sudetenland bullshit, and NATO has it's excuse to expand further and take other bold actions.

Do you mean that Ukrainians shouldn't have anything to say about their future? What about their choice? Shouldn't it be the most important thing for sovereign nation, to make its own choices, regardless if it pleases Russia or not?

They have and they had. They elected Yanukovich. Greedy EU demanded Ukraine to make an this-either-that decision, which was the program for civil war, which I predicted more than one year ago. It was easy to predict, since the country is divided.

But I think I understand, for you only west Ukrainians counts, because you don't like how east Ukrainians vote.

 

[ElHorsto]

by what i read Alexander Zakharchenko plans to to make an army of 100 000 rabels,

that means eternal war in Ukraine,

i dot know if the cube/dice has fallen,
or if Rubicon river is passed,
but seems will be a inner continous war for years,

I read that too and it appears to be not correct. They want to reach 100 000 in total, not in addition. So the new recruits would be in fact much fewer.

 

[LeBrok]

You can twist the facts as much as you want.

You don't believe that russian troops are in Ukraine and Russia supplies tanks and other weapons? Together with surface to air missile which was used to shot down Malesian plane.

1. the east is ethnically cleansed or

How can East be cleansed if rebels live there and Ukrainian troops can't get to these areas? Don't confuse sporadic murders by some psychopathic fascists as ethnic cleansing. Such things are common on both sides, but are not considered an official position of a government or rebels. If you really want to know what cleansing mean, go back to russian Tzars official ethnic politics and Soviet Union resettling of Tatars and Ukrainian starvation, 5 million dead as punishment for being anti revolutionary. All done by a state with official program of extermination and resettling. Now, this is what ethnic cleansing means.

2. Putin intervenes openly to stop the ethnic cleansing due to rising pressure within Russia.

Putin's army is already there. I'm surprised you so believe in words of ex KGB guy. They are known to tell the "truth", lol. You should read more "Pravda" newspaper too.

In case of 1) not much needs to be done by the west, except moving forward to the next hotspots (Lithuania, Moldavia, Georgia,...). So far Ukraine will remain a biting bulldog on Russia's leg with war as the only economic perspective.

Last 25 years of being Russias lapdog didn't work for them at all. Their economy didn't even move since Soviet times. Are you blaming them that finally they want to try something else? To be, what you call, a Nato bulldog for a change. At least they are finally trying something different.

In case of 2) the "western community (=mob)" can portray Putin as "new Hitler" referring to the Sudetenland bullshit, and NATO has it's excuse to expand further and take other bold actions.

Nato was invited by Ukraine, a sovereign country, Nato is not entering Russia. What problem you see with this?
By your standards Russia has a right to terrorise Estonia and Latvia, because they are in Nato and they are bordering with Russia?

But I think I understand, for you only west Ukrainians counts, because you don't like how east Ukrainians vote.

I've already expressed my opinion that Ukraine should let the rebel territory go to Russia. Having a bit smaller but more united population is much better.