Politics Should Crimea be an independent country? (Russian-Ukrainian conflict)

[LeBrok]

Sadly, but if he decides to do it, there is not much that could stop him. Your best best is to play safe and talk to Putin to see what he wants, so that he would leave you alone.

.

Likely there is a choice. Join NATO and implement heavy sanctions against Russia. If not now, it will sober Putin in the future when Russia goes in deep recession. Money talks, bulshit walks.

 

[Yetos]

Likely there is a choice. Join NATO and implement heavy sanctions against Russia. If not now, it will sober Putin in the future when Russia goes in deep recession. Money talks, bulshit walks.

sorry I hate that 'money talks',

it reminds me 3 histories.

1. is modern, the IS, which has money and make such crimes,

2. is India and Mahatma Gandhi, british empire had money, India did not, yet the anti-money stance beat all ex-british empire money.

3. The Guevara/Castro and Cuba, US had money and tobacco/sugar plantations, what Cubans had?


besides I am not about a Russian or Nato Lithuania, let the people decide,
but it is the already poor Lithuania and generally balts that is loosing 60% of her GDP due the NATO/RUSSIA embargo.
will NATO (or Russia in oposite case) pay the damage of income to Lithuanians and every one else 'Lithuania' (I use as example).
my mind stoped, situation gone very complex, I am afraid that long time embargo will awake russian bear to rebuild modern industry, not 70's as has now,
I am afraid that Ukrainians will face the fate of Moldova/Hyperdneisteria, East Europe (Balkan and Balts) will accept a long time economical wound, and some politicians get the glory, although the total plan seems it is 'designed' by 'politicians' as fast thoughts over a toilet.

you may accuse me that I am thinking 'Black', call it a 'feeling'.


PS
the 'money talks' is for us, the WEST, seems like we are prisoners of our banking system, and we believe that IS and Russia are too, but are they?
remember when mahatma Gadhi produced salt, the empire's monopolio, it was like saying put the money .......

PS2
I wonder, what kind of talk money did in Vietnam?

 

[King Bardhyl]

This is a war, at the end of which will overtake Russia to become a world power, having a greater control of the Black Sea or the Nato warships will patrol with the Russian ones Azov Sea and NATO bases will be located on Ukrainian territory and Russia will return to a regional power with less weight.
The problem is that Russia does not respect the rules of the game and always remains a nuclear threat in Europe.




Another big problem is that the USA and Germany have different agendas.







If, however, we will ask the populations of ex-communist countries most of them look with fear this expansion of Russia west of the limits of state due.
Russia is a country that has chosen the Chinese model of governance, and not the western model of democracy. They think this is their point of force, i think it is the weakness of their.
In short, in this dangerous game when the others gave to the Russian chess, they(Russia) broke the game table. Russia is a country which historically does not respect agreements.
So the war for the control of the Mediterranean is open, and nuke are always there.







P.S.
Many countries suffer damage to the economy because of this war, but in Ukraine people are dying. It`s an WAR.

 

[mihaitzateo]

Why it is a conflict?
Ukraine are also ultra-nationalists ,who do not respect the rights of minorities in their country,same as Putin does.
Just checked now,in today Russia it seems ethnic minorities do not have too many rights either.
Also,both Putin and US leaders wants to rule the whole world.
And normally,since both US and Russia leaders wants Ukraine under their influence - we got a conflict here.
Now considering the ruling of the world, is not doable,you can not control the average people,this is the reality.
It is said Romania is under the influence of US - we have most movies here in English from US,US tv stations translated etc.
However,take Germany,where this is not happening,people are keeping their ethnicity,take France,where this is not happening,take Great Britain,where this is not happening either and so on.
Also I doubt that these lots of US movies influenced too much the average Romanian.Common Romanian likes a lot more the "telenovelas" made in South America and Italy,than most US made movies,high class Romanian,likes more movies made in Europe,than movies made in US.
So,just a non-sense conflict,because some people like Putin or Obama thinks they can impose their way of viewing things in other parts of the world.
They can not even impose their view of things in Russia to most people,speaking about Putin,neither Obama can impose his way of viewing things and set of values to most people in US.
You can saw that Romance countries from NATO,do not want to be involved in this conflict,Romania said that NATO should expand Eastwards,but I think most Romanians do not agree to this,they do not like Russia,they do not like US.
We kept our language when Turkic people were ruling Romania,we will keep our language when US is imposing us what to do,we will keep our language if Putin will come and impose what to do.
Now in modern times,words that were imposed from Russian by Bolsheviks were removed from Romanian,in the future,we will remove the Anglo worlds,from our language,that are imposed now to us.

 

[LeBrok]

Thousands of honest Russians protest Putin's invasion of Ukraine.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/0...oscow-protest-russias-role-in-ukraine-crisis/

 

[LeBrok]

Now in modern times,words that were imposed from Russian by Bolsheviks were removed from Romanian,in the future,we will remove the Anglo worlds,from our language,that are imposed now to us.

What a splendid idea. Also remove French and Turkish words, and of course Slavic words infecting Romanian since slavic expansion. Don't stop there, and remove all Latin words too. Romans wanted to dominate world and forced Balkan population to change their native languages to pig latin. Keep the rest of vocabulary.

 

[Ike]

Thousands of honest Russians protest Putin's invasion of Ukraine.

So, if they demonstrate against Putin, they are honest
It's funny to see them comparing Russia to Germany, while there was no chance for one to see Russian and Jewish flags and demonstrators in center of Berlin during WW2.

Total fail in trying to degrade Russia, in fact the opposite. I guess these kind of demonstrations won't happen in "democratic" Kiev. In fact maybe people would have got beaten and shot at just for not being enough pro-Ukrainian.... as when I think of it they were. Same as what would have happen to Jewish protesters 1942 in Berlin...

 

[LeBrok]

So, if they demonstrate against Putin, they are honest
It's funny to see them comparing Russia to Germany, while there was no chance for one to see Russian and Jewish flags and demonstrators in center of Berlin during WW2.

Total fail in trying to degrade Russia, in fact the opposite. I guess these kind of demonstrations won't happen in "democratic" Kiev. In fact maybe people would have got beaten and shot at just for not being enough pro-Ukrainian.... as when I think of it they were. Same as what would have happen to Jewish protesters 1942 in Berlin...

Whatever the case could be with demonstrations, it is no valid reason for invasion of neighboring country. That's the comparison with Germany starting WW2. Official reason was protecting german minorities abroad. Isn't it what Puting is doing now in Ukraine?

 

[Ike]

The same as all NATO countries invaded my country, on their free will:
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2000/06/kos1-j14.html

As same as mercenaries from all over Europe plundered and killed all over Yugoslavia. Just one example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKlUt_HPlN8&list=UU-y9nsRc_QbKhsrDrtTEZCg

etc...


Once EU and NATO admit and suffer the consequences for their acts, they can ask the same from other countries. Up till then it's pure hypocrisy.

 

[LeBrok]

The same as all NATO countries invaded my country, on their free will:
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2000/06/kos1-j14.html

As same as mercenaries from all over Europe plundered and killed all over Yugoslavia. Just one example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKlUt_HPlN8&list=UU-y9nsRc_QbKhsrDrtTEZCg

etc...

I thought you were standing on higher moral ground, Ike. Are you saying that one wrong makes another wrong, the right thing to do? You must be eye for an eye guy, even if it takes to break law or morality. Now, that's hypocrisy.

 

[Ike]

I thought you were standing on higher moral ground, Ike. Are you saying that one wrong makes another wrong, the right thing to do? You must be eye for an eye guy, even if it takes to break law or morality. Now, that's hypocrisy.

First of all my general attitude towards what USA an EU are doing in Ukraine is that it's wrong. So, none of your conclusions work here.


Next, to get back to what I'm saying in my last post which is this, or translated to something more familiar:

"He added that the United States, Germany and the Western countries “are the last ones who should hold Putin lectures on international law and the preservation of territorial integrity”.

“When Mr. Obama or Chancellor Merkel tell Putin ‘You can not go into someone’s country and interfere in its relations, you have to respect the territorial integrity’, Putin can only smile and say ‘Are you serious? You know something about territorial integrity? What did you do in Kosovo? What did you do in Iraq? Libya, Afghanistan?” said Ströbele.


http://inserbia.info/today/2014/05/strobele-bombing-of-serbia-secession-of-kosovo-was-a-mistake/



BTW I'm not standing anywhere, and this talk is not about me. It's about NATO and EU countries and their moral integrity. Why should we start believing that they want do protect international law, when they haven't done that before. Last what we saw of them was exactly the opposite - violation of international law which had outcome of NATO expansion towards East. I don't believe a single bit that NATO and EU care about law, human right or about Ukrainian citizens. Their only goal is NATO expansion towards East. Why do I believe that? Because they've persuaded me. And it's been a long process - with their bombs, actions, with every single deed they have done since the fallout of Warsaw pact and SSSR.

 

[LeBrok]

Russia has cut gas supply to Ukraine in June. However Russian gas still flows to Ukraine through Poland and Hungary. It will be interesting to see what Russia is going to do with this "backflow problem". Obviously they are not happy about this and forced Hungary to stop supplying gas to Ukraine, at least temporarily.
It will be very difficult for Russia to stop gas flow to Ukraine due to very complicated and interconnected gas lines. Obviously they are going to try very hard.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-29374151

 

[ElHorsto]

El Horsto, it is true, I have no evidence regarding the authenticity of the chocolate.

Not surprising.

However, the question is about the political atmosphere in Russia. Putin (who is supported by 85% of the population or so) wants to create “Russian Word” which extends beyond the current borders of Russia. It seems that any means are good for the purpose. Putin himself mentioned earlier this week that his army can take over Kiev in a matter of two weeks. Whereas Zhirinovsky (MP, leader of the second popular party in theRussian Parliament) repeatedly voices out that the Baltic states and Poland deserves to be occupied or destroyed. In April 2013 he said that the Baltic states deserve to be occupied and they can be destroyed in a matter of 5 minutes (the time needed for missiles from Russia to reach Baltic states - he explicitly mentioned that). In August of 2014 he again said that the Baltic states and Poland are doomed, they will be erased from the earth’s surface.These statements are authentic. In any other country, apart, perhaps, from the North Korea, such public statements would be deemed as warmongering and persecuted by law, but not in Russia…

I thought Putin is the new Hitler, yet you need to dig out Zhirinovsky the clown for evidence. Well, if situation escalates, Russians (still only a small minority wants military involvement in Ukraine according to one recent poll) might get fed up by Putin's appeasement politics and someone like Zhirinovsky might get to power eventually. Even without Zhirinovsky, eventually Russia has to strike back militarily, if this lunacy continues. And the rest what you say is either irrelevant (I just don't get your point), obvious facts, rumours from Poroshenko, or worse than MSM ... I don't even know how to respond reasonably.
Speaking about warmongers - how about Grybauskaite (feel free to mock Merkel, I'd be pleased)? Her issues are so absurd ("Russia is like ISIS", "Russian troops are in Ukraine", ...) that even many western MSM stopped parroting her because she is ridiculing herself. By talking like this she stirs ethnic clashes at home which can be blamed on Russia in order to get money, army and attention from the West, while distracting from home-grown problems.
Actually I don't expect to convince someone, because the political athmosphere in Europe such that MSM yellow press rumours are preferred over proofs and evidence. At least eupedia should have more scientific attitude.

That being said, there is truly a problem concerning the remaining Russians in the former Soviet republics states. They are a legacy. Especially Latvia is concerning with still 40% Russians. Half of latvian russians already moved back to Russia since 1990, while the rest is probably rather hard-core. Then there is Estonia with it's official SS-admiration which already once provoked some Russian hard-cores few years ago. But now the answer to these problems is very easy: they are all stalinists and anyway it was all Putin's agents. Unless EU and Russia start to cooperate this might extend the Global Balkans to the north.

 

[Vedun]

More than 5000 Ukrainian & Russian civilians already died in eastern Ukraine, which is the purest genocide. These people will never able to live in some peaceful "union" again with other people, who have some self elected "leaders"... Turn it around as you wish, I know feelings of their people who suffer this persecution... Those who never experienced a war against your own people, will never understand that. And you should be glad for that...
Soviet Union was a brutal state, but this pogrom against Russians and eastern Ukrainians in the name of some "democracy" is nothing better ...

 

[LeBrok]

More than 5000 Ukrainian & Russian civilians already died in eastern Ukraine, which is the purest genocide.

Can you read definition of genocide again? I'm sure it is not what you think it is.

 

[LeBrok]

Putin shows his double face again.

Russians tanks rolls into Ukraine, but he denies this and any mendling in Ukrainian affairs.

 

[mihaitzateo]

Putin shows his double face again.

Russians tanks rolls into Ukraine, but he denies this and any mendling in Ukrainian affairs.

And where are the proofs that Russia has sent tanks in Ukraine?
Because mister general Breedlove "the supreme allied commander in Europe" said so?
Sorry,but after I just seen that Churchill wanted to use nuclear weapon on Kremlin,saying that "URSS will attack" to stop the spread of "bolshsevism" and after I have seen that some FBI members tried to make Martin Luther King comitting suicide I do not believe this kind of "proofs".
I do remember that Obama administration involvement in Syria leads the country into a very bloody civil war,that now some fanatic terorists are controlling a large part of Syria.And from what I remember Obama administration wanted to bomb the democratic elected president and government of Syria,on what reason,because they did not considered a democratic regime?
Look what they made in Syria,happily Israel secret police did not listened to absurdities of Obama administration and destroyed some very dangerous weapons,so these weapons did not went to the fanatic terrorists that are now controlling Syria.
I have seen Obama administration pushing sanctions on Iran because they said "Iran makes a nuclear weapon" but this did not confirmed.
I am seeing that Obama administration is closing their eyes at the humanitarian disaster that is now happening in Ukraine,they did not sent any help,Germany sent to those from Eastern Ukraine,in the areas controlled by Ukraine government ,Putin sent to those in the area controlled by rebels.
So,where Obama administration gets involved,I see fratricide wars,bloodshed between same people,as happened in Syria and now happens in Ukraine.
Oh,sorry,I forgot the fratricide war that was provoked in Libya where we have seen again brothers killing brothers.
How come that 3 very bloody fratricide wars started during Obama administration,wars that leads the countries in which these wars started into anarchy and poverty?

Oh,what I an idiot I am !
I forgot,there was also a fratricide bloody civil war in Egypt,that started also during Obama administration time.
So,4 wars and counting,maybe I forgot some, 4 bloody fratricide civilian wars that started during Obama administration.
See,what I was saying,I am such an idiot,in fact,were a lot more civil wars that started during Obama administration:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring
Well,but this information from wikipedia must be a little inaccurate since I see that the movements they say,were "peaceful"
but if I go on other hand here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Revolution_of_2011
I see that 1100 people died. Guess it was from emotion,or they died because it was too crowded,maybe problems with lack of air or other accidents,that happens,well,what you want,I am not like mr Breedlove to know everything.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunisian_Revolution
Another 300 people died.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Libyan_Civil_War
25.000 people died.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Civil_War
200.000 people died and still counting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahraini_uprising_(2011–present)
98 people died

"Heroes" fighting for "liberty" ; for the liberty that average people can die from lack of food,or proper medical assistance,as most (99%) of Americans,who are living in the "land of liberty" have the privilege to have.
See,the great US government do not want that most Americans (99% of US population) would live a life that is boring,that they know that have a safe job,a safe medical insurance and so on.
They offer a nice spicy life to these Americans,they have the freedom of paying taxes or going to prison if not,they have the freedom of not having a house,because a house is just extra concerns and it makes someone less free and other great advantages.


I hope that Obama will leave,until he does not provoke another bloody fratricide war.
Let us not forget that a bloody war between African-americans and US police almost started in Ferguson,Missouri ,or there it was "Putin hand" also?
EDIT:
I do agree with Vedun,it is genocide in Eastern Ukraine,those who wants to be pro-Russia from Ukraine are discriminated or even killed for this.
Sadly,this genocide is done by their blood brothers.
You know that Germany and France wanted to send troops to protect civilians there,however,Ukrainian government said that the "communists opposed".
Oh really.
Now it came out that a fanatic terrorist ,a brainwashed English woman,who converted to Islam,was fighting with "Ukraine patriotic troops".
And mr Obama "knows everything",he is a very skilled person in keeping international peace,he is so skilled that he can not even keep peace in US.
See how peacefully he handled the "Occupy Wall street" peaceful protest.

 

[LeBrok]

Looks like economic sanctions and low oil prices started to bite Russia very hard. Rubel is down almost 50%, and economy can shrink 4% this year.
People are getting unhappy, and will be even more unhappy in a year, when recession is worse. This might bring the end to Putin's presidency. I wonder if Putin will risk next election or will take over power as a true dictator? However next presidential election is a long time away in 2018, so lot's can happen till then.

In mean time Putin is getting rid of opposition.

 

[Yetos]

until 2018 WW3 or a total crusade, or a new Saladin will be the next thing we will discuss,

 

[LeBrok]

until 2018 WW3 or a total crusade, or a new Saladin will be the next thing we will discuss,

I don't think there will be WW3, but some revolt in Russia is very likely. At some point people will be disillusioned by Putin's Russia.