Just how important were Y-haplogroups E-M34, J1 and T in the LBK culture ?

How much studies do we have? I do not remember exactly it was two or three. But it was found in BB culture.
There is alot of studies to be done before drawing conclusions, especially when studies of modern population suggests that R1b should be found there.

Of Neolithic European farmers before Bell Beaker culture, we have Y-DNA samples for 36 individuals across 7 studies. See Jean Manco. The current tally is:

G2a: 25
I2a1a: 4
F: 2
R1a1: 2
E1b1b: 1
G?: 1
J or I?: 1
 
Of Neolithic European farmers before Bell Beaker culture, we have Y-DNA samples for 36 individuals across 7 studies. See Jean Manco. The current tally is:

G2a: 25
I2a1a: 4
F: 2
R1a1: 2
E1b1b: 1
G?: 1
J or I?: 1

But none of those samples are from areas that currently have high levels of R1b. Talk to me once there are a number of Neolithic samples from Ireland, Wales or the Basque country. Then we'll know whether or not R1b was present in the European Atlantic coastal zone during the Neolithic.
 
But none of those samples are from areas that currently have high levels of R1b. Talk to me once there are a number of Neolithic samples from Ireland, Wales or the Basque country. Then we'll know whether or not R1b was present in the European Atlantic coastal zone during the Neolithic.

Actually, I would disagree on that: the Neolithic samples from Cogolls, Catalonia and Treilles, Languedoc are both from regions that today have rather high percentages (~60-80%) of R1b, closely comparable with the Basque country (which is located in relative closeness to either sites) and the British Isles.

I mean, I will agree with you that we do not know this for certain (I'd like to remind that before the discovery of R1b from the Kromsdorf site back in 2012, the oldest sample of R1b in Europe was from the Lichtenstein cave in northern Germany, from circa 1000 BC), but all the evidence that we do have so far would suggest that R1b simply wasn't in Western Europe and was a late arrival instead. Bear in mind that Treilles is approximately 2500 years before Kromsdorf, and Cogolls is even 4500 years before it.
 
But none of those samples are from areas that currently have high levels of R1b. Talk to me once there are a number of Neolithic samples from Ireland, Wales or the Basque country. Then we'll know whether or not R1b was present in the European Atlantic coastal zone during the Neolithic.

this is confusing, what are you aiming for?.................is it to prove R1b was atlantic CZ first or ?

Clearly R1b is not in BB culture as shown ( G2a dominates this ) and it must be an eastern group which arrived in Europe as a "dynastic" farming group. It the only way it can dominate the original other haplogroups that arrived earlier
 
Unfortunately deep subclades haven't been tested for all J and T samples. What is sure is that there were three T2c among the 102 LBK samples.

J1+T people might have carried some H subclades too, but I haven't been able to distinguish those linked to G2a or E-M34 from those linked to J1 and T. Overall, Near Eastern farmers must have carried H2, H5, H7, H13 and H20, but most are probably linked to G2a, or perhaps even to the Balkanic E-V13 and J2b. Among them only H5 and H7 were found in LBK-related cultures, though none during the LBK period itself. The only H subclade clearly identified in LBK samples was the extremely rare H46b.

It's not easy to sort out the LBK mtDNA lineages as they are already a blend of three distinct populations:

1) Near Eastern farmers (linked to Y-DNA E-M34, G2a, J1 and T)
2) Assimilated Mesolithic West Anatolian, Greek & Balkanic hunter-gatherers (linked to Y-DNA E-V13 and J2b)
3) Assimilated Mesolithic Central European hunter-gatherers (linked to Y-DNA C, F, I and R1a)

I have summarised the respective maternal lineages of these three populations here.


How much Near Eastern vs Balkanic ancestry ?

Overall I estimate that approximately 45-50% of mtDNA from the LBK culture came directly from the Near East and was mostly associated with Y-haplogroups J1 and T, and to a lower extent also G2a(xG2a3b1) and E-M34.

About 50% of the LBK mtDNA comes from the Mesolithic Balkans or western Anatolia, and barely 5% could be of other Mesolithic European origin (haplogroups H1 and U5). Interestingly the proportion of Mesolithic European lineages slowly but progressively rises over time, showing that more intermarriages took place between farmers and hunter-gatherers.

In summary, LBK men belonged essentially to E-M34, E-V13, G2a, J1, J2b and T. I expect 50% to 70% of J1 + T + G2a + E-M34, and and 30% to 50% of E-V13 + J2b. It is not clear yet whether G2a should be considered of Southwest Asian origin like E-M34, J1 and T, or East Mediterranean like E-V13 and J2b. Actually, if G2a originated in Anatolia, the original admixture of its people would be more Caucasian-like or West Asian-like, depending on what admixtures are used.



UPDATE: I have created a map of the LBK culture.

LBK_culture.png

It would seem to me that the epicentre was the northern border of czech and germany , where we see with your other maps an influx of ydna I group, indicating to me the elimination of the existing original group....IIRC these are mountainous areas.

The other is the strong influence of mtdna T2 in a triangular area of the area mentioned above, the eastern alps and moldovia.............why is the % of this marker so high in these areas
 
this is confusing, what are you aiming for?.................is it to prove R1b was atlantic CZ first or ?

Clearly R1b is not in BB culture as shown ( G2a dominates this ) and it must be an eastern group which arrived in Europe as a "dynastic" farming group. It the only way it can dominate the original other haplogroups that arrived earlier

No. I'm saying that it's a mistake to talk about whether R1b was or was not part of LBK culture, since I think that if it arrived in Europe during the Neolithic, it would have arrived either across/along the Mediterranean or migrated from North Africa into Spain. If the areas where R1b is most common today are those areas where R1b first spread in Europe (which I admit has not been proven), it would have originally been largely an Atlantic (and possibly Mediterranean) phenomenon. Once we have enough data from the right places, we'll know whether or not R1b was in Europe during the Neolithic, but I've never thought it had anything to do with the epicentre of LBK.
 
But none of those samples are from areas that currently have high levels of R1b. Talk to me once there are a number of Neolithic samples from Ireland, Wales or the Basque country. Then we'll know whether or not R1b was present in the European Atlantic coastal zone during the Neolithic.

I think you're wrong here. Modern frequency is unlikely to correspond to ancient frequency, so testing in places with high modern frequency of R1b isn't likely to confirm much of anything. Also, here are some rough modern R1b percentages in the areas that have been sampled, taken by eyeballing Maciamo's maps:
Avellaner cave: +80%
Treilles: +60%
La Pierre Fritte: +50%
Ötzi: +40%
Derenburg Meerenstieg: +40%
Eulau: +25%
Jagodno: +5%

There are some pretty high R1b areas that have been sampled. Catalonia for example is not too far off of the Basque Country and Wales in terms of R1b frequency, and may be higher than Ireland.
 
I think you're wrong here. Modern frequency is unlikely to correspond to ancient frequency, so testing in places with high modern frequency of R1b isn't likely to confirm much of anything. Also, here are some rough modern R1b percentages in the areas that have been sampled, taken by eyeballing Maciamo's maps:
Avellaner cave: +80%
Treilles: +60%
La Pierre Fritte: +50%
Ötzi: +40%
Derenburg Meerenstieg: +40%
Eulau: +25%
Jagodno: +5%

There are some pretty high R1b areas that have been sampled. Catalonia for example is not too far off of the Basque Country and Wales in terms of R1b frequency, and may be higher than Ireland.

We'll see, once there are more results from the relevant areas to look at. That doesn't change the fact that the question of whether R1b was in Europe during the Neolithic has nothing to do with LBK, at least in my opinion.
 
Of Neolithic European farmers before Bell Beaker culture, we have Y-DNA samples for 36 individuals across 7 studies. See Jean Manco. The current tally is:

G2a: 25
I2a1a: 4
F: 2
R1a1: 2
E1b1b: 1
G?: 1
J or I?: 1

I remember a study with G2a in cardial Italy, but I don't find it back
 
Of Neolithic European farmers before Bell Beaker culture, we have Y-DNA samples for 36 individuals across 7 studies. See Jean Manco. The current tally is:

G2a: 25
I2a1a: 4
F: 2
R1a1: 2
E1b1b: 1
G?: 1
J or I?: 1
I was referring to LBK and I remember only one article Haak et al.(2010) where only three samples ware tested for Y haplogroup, two F* and one G2a2b( isogg). If R1b was spread with LBK I wouldn't expect it in southern route of spread of agriculture like in Cardium pottery. Three samples are not enough to draw conclusion. We do not know which Haplogroups ware responsible of spread of agriculture in central European route, R1b is still the suspect.:wink:
Here is map from supplementary material of Busby et al.(2011) showing frequencies of R1b subclades and centers of spread of Neolithic cultures (stars):
1624ql3.png

I don't think that this is just coincidence.
 

This thread has been viewed 25788 times.

Back
Top