Corded Ware / Iranic-Aryan split of IE?

[Silesian]

and nice R1a maps:

A little bit of follow up:

This is another positive piece of puzzle placing origin of IE out off India

 

[LeBrok]

With such overwhelming proof of H-arya-na connected to PIE and Northern Europe, maybe now you can show some R1a spread of kurgans,chariots/horses,beads,trinkets. :wary2:

To keep "out of India" idea alive you might as well produce Indian cultural evidence all the way to Europe.

Regardless, here is the explanation for the lack of Steppe cultural artifacts in India:

1. The horses from the stepp didn't do well in India's hot and humid climate, up to +40C with 100% humidity. All the Aryan's horses died out quickly. In this case finding their bones is very difficult, and graves with horses were impossible or very rare.
2. Point one can explain why the Harappa chariot, you posted, is pulled only by local animals, the bovian bulls. Also India's vegetation is dense and high not great for roaming around in chariots for war purposes.
3. For these above reasons war chariots are not popular in India till first millennium when new breads of horses for hot climates are created. Looking at Indian culture in general, horses never became as popular as in the Steppe or Europe.
4. Aryan invasion was not huge in numbers. Indus Valley civilisation was already in decline, caused by climatic conditions or something else, when invasion happened. From 1,900 BCE to 1,500 or even longer during so called Dark Ages for this area. If there was small number of invaders their artifacts will be more difficult to find in densely populated India. Most bronz items were never buried and reused for newer items.
5. Perhaps for first decades or longer they ruled from nomadic camps away from big Indus cities (Mongol style), and their first locations are under existing agricultural fields, and not being found in Harappa or other excavated cities? Or perhaps these camp sites with burial kurgans were washed away with floods or eroded with monsoons? We are talking about wood and soil structures in hot and moist climate.
6. Perhaps Aryans came as exclusively male war party without their smiths and artisans. It would have meant that they had to rely on local products only in ceramics, cloths and bronze products. After all they came into a farmer society more advanced in many everyday ways; better linens, better ceramic, better paints, better food variety, stone buildings, architecture, roads, plumbing, etc.

 

[Silesian]

To keep "out of India" idea alive you might as well produce Indian cultural evidence all the way to Europe.

Regardless, here is the explanation for the lack of Steppe cultural artifacts in India:

Then you have the Tocharians. Celtic and Italic areas are very very, low in both R1a and the B allele

Either of two extinct languages ( Tocharian A and Tocharian B) spoken by the Tocharian people, the most easterly of known ancient Indo-European languages, surviving in a few documents and inscriptions and showing affinities to Celtic and Italic languages.

Remember the video by Mallory and the problem with connecting the Tocharian's with the steppe? Then we have Michael Frachetti's work
work. How about mtdna X2e ?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180497/

Clades X2e and X2f encompass the majority (87.1%) of the sequences from the South Caucasus area and show coalescence times (12,000 ± 4,000 YBP and 10,800 ± 5,000 YBP, respectively) consistent with a Late Upper Paleolithic (LUP) origin and a subsequent spread in the region. We found significant differences between the haplogroup distribution between the North and the South Caucasian samples, a result that indicates a major geographical barrier between the two regions. The South Caucasian sample is enriched in mtDNAs belonging to clades X2e and X2f (P<.01), whereas the North Caucasian sample shows a higher proportion of sequences derived at nps 225 and 16248 (P<.01).Clade X2e, defined by the synonymous substitution at 15310, encompasses all haplogroup X sequences in the Altaians (fig. 2).

 

[LeBrok]

Then you have the Tocharians. Celtic and Italic areas are very very, low in both R1a and the B allele



Remember the video by Mallory and the problem with connecting the Tocharian's with the steppe? Then we have Michael Frachetti's work
work. How about mtdna X2e ?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180497/

It is not a problem. We have blond dudes speaking Indo European language of Centum type. Why can't they migrate from West steppe close to Mykop or something like that. We know similar length successful migration of Turkish people from Central Asia to Anatolia, within couple of hundreds of years. I don't understand why Tocharians must be related to Andronovo and Indo-Iranians.


PS. can you explain what you want to say in post 221?


I'm not sure why you looking more at what we don't know instead of concentrating on what we already know. From your point of view we will never know what happened in the past because we can't find all the evidence to be 100% sure.

 

[Aberdeen]

To keep "out of India" idea alive you might as well produce Indian cultural evidence all the way to Europe.

Regardless, here is the explanation for the lack of Steppe cultural artifacts in India:

1. The horses from the stepp didn't do well in India's hot and humid climate, up to +40C with 100% humidity. All the Aryan's horses died out quickly. In this case finding their bones is very difficult, and graves with horses were impossible or very rare.
2. Point one can explain why the Harappa chariot, you posted, is pulled only by local animals, the bovian bulls. Also India's vegetation is dense and high not great for roaming around in chariots for war purposes.
3. For these above reasons war chariots are not popular in India till first millennium when new breads of horses for hot climates are created. Looking at Indian culture in general, horses never became as popular as in the Steppe or Europe.
4. Aryan invasion was not huge in numbers. Indus Valley civilisation was already in decline, caused by climatic conditions or something else, when invasion happened. From 1,900 BCE to 1,500 or even longer during so called Dark Ages for this area. If there was small number of invaders their artifacts will be more difficult to find in densely populated India. Most bronz items were never buried and reused for newer items.
5. Perhaps for first decades or longer they ruled from nomadic camps away from big Indus cities (Mongol style), and their first locations are under existing agricultural fields, and not being found in Harappa or other excavated cities? Or perhaps these camp sites with burial kurgans were washed away with floods or eroded with monsoons? We are talking about wood and soil structures in hot and moist climate.
6. Perhaps Aryans came as exclusively male war party without their smiths and artisans. It would have meant that they had to rely on local products only in ceramics, cloths and bronze products. After all they came into a farmer society more advanced in many everyday ways; better linens, better ceramic, better paints, better food variety, stone buildings, architecture, roads, plumbing, etc.

If you look up "History of Archeology in India", you'll find that the post-Independence section is blank. What isn't being looked for won't be found. And I doubt if there's been much archeology going on in Pakistan or Afghanistan in recent decades.

 

[Silesian]

PS. can you explain what you want to say in post 221?

Sure. Clinging to old ideas and myths that no longer work

To keep "out of India" idea alive you might as well produce Indian cultural evidence all the way to Europe.

Regardless, here is the explanation for the lack of Steppe cultural artifacts in India:

1. The horses from the stepp didn't do well in India's hot and humid climate, up to +40C with 100% humidity. All the Aryan's horses died out quickly. In this case finding their bones is very difficult, and graves with horses were impossible or very rare.
2. Point one can explain why the Harappa chariot, you posted, is pulled only by local animals, the bovian bulls. Also India's vegetation is dense and high not great for roaming around in chariots for war purposes.
3. For these above reasons war chariots are not popular in India till first millennium when new breads of horses for hot climates are created. Looking at Indian culture in general, horses never became as popular as in the Steppe or Europe.
4. Aryan invasion was not huge in numbers. Indus Valley civilisation was already in decline, caused by climatic conditions or something else, when invasion happened. From 1,900 BCE to 1,500 or even longer during so called Dark Ages for this area. If there was small number of invaders their artifacts will be more difficult to find in densely populated India. Most bronz items were never buried and reused for newer items.
5. Perhaps for first decades or longer they ruled from nomadic camps away from big Indus cities (Mongol style), and their first locations are under existing agricultural fields, and not being found in Harappa or other excavated cities? Or perhaps these camp sites with burial kurgans were washed away with floods or eroded with monsoons? We are talking about wood and soil structures in hot and moist climate.
6. Perhaps Aryans came as exclusively male war party without their smiths and artisans. It would have meant that they had to rely on local products only in ceramics, cloths and bronze products. After all they came into a farmer society more advanced in many everyday ways; better linens, better ceramic, better paints, better food variety, stone buildings, architecture, roads, plumbing, etc

 

[LeBrok]

Sure. Clinging to old ideas and myths that no longer work

Instead of only criticizing old ideas, please explain your ideas or at least someone elses ideas why they are more probable in your mind.

 

[Nobody1]

What about lengend/myths/gods? PIE/IE and other?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_wine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_wine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus

They are a Mythological by product of the product itself and its effects (merry drunkenness); There is no Indo-European god for wine - those Indo-Europeans that expanded into viticulture areas simply adopted a cult or created one independently; Thus i also think that the process (fermentation/brewing) is more of significant than the product itself - which is mostly regionally restricted; The common Indo-European term *bh(e)reu- was used in Latin ferveō for fermentation of Grapes to make wine and in Germanic briuwan for fermentation of barley and grain to make the Urgermanic bier; Tacitus (Ger. XXIII) 'A liquor for drinking is made out of barley or other grain, and fermented into a certain resemblance to wine'; And Gambrinus is the mythical king of Beer;

Maybe your right. Now that's what you call a real vintage: professor unearths 8,000-year-old wine

I thought so;

 

[LeBrok]

If you look up "History of Archeology in India", you'll find that the post-Independence section is blank. What isn't being looked for won't be found. And I doubt if there's been much archeology going on in Pakistan or Afghanistan in recent decades.

There is obviously lack of funds for any type of research in this world region. I wasn't able to find any maps of skin shades or eye colour to see if it works for Haryana same way as LP gene. Funds issue might be coupled with political climate in India to avoid anything which potentially might divide the country.

 

[Silesian]

I repeat again. When the median empire was on it's peak a religion called Zoroastrianism wasn't yet bron. So what were they before there was anything called Zoroastrianism? In the past many scientists made the mistake that they generally tended to connect anything in connection with Fire to Zoroastrians. And they also tended to call any Iranian religion Zoroastrian like using an "umbrella term". But newer studies and well known scientists like Kreyenboerk confirm that Fire and Sun worshipping goes further back to some older rituals and religion. Which he calls the "proto Iranic religion" To which Mithraism is closer to and was the first to split off. Later Zoroastrianism split off Mithraism. Zarathustra was basically a Mithra worshipper who started to invent his own religion with mostly elements of Mithraism.
In no ancient Iranian text will you see the Magi labeled as Zoroastrians.

What is your opinion of Viktor Sariandi's work? BMAC origins pointing to Iran and yet having links with vedic sanskrit ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Sarianidi

I was just listening to this nice melody about " Barf " How do they say "snow" in Kurdish ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAph0sTavbM&list=ALBTKoXRg38BArgaYzJEbLiKpa3P1-dzve

 

[Silesian]

There is no Indo-European god for wine .....

Maybe not. However there is a PIE /proto-Kartvelian word for it. The terrain it was produced in was not really good for wagons.

This matches the earliest discovered sites containing shards of wine-stained pottery, dated to c. 6000 BC in Georgia,^[5] and c. 5000 BC in Iran.^[5][6

 

[LeBrok]

What is your opinion of Viktor Sariandi's work? BMAC origins pointing to Iran and yet having links with vedic sanskrit ?

We know you love to ask questions. How about entertaining us with your hypothesis of IE and II origin and allowing us to point to "imperfections" and provide our critique this time around? C'mon don't be shy, we are all friends here.

 

[Silesian]

We know you love to ask questions. How about entertaining us with your hypothesis of IE and II origin and allowing us to point to "imperfections" and provide our critique this time around? C'mon don't be shy, we are all friends here.

I think Vedic Sanskrit-Avestan-Ancient extinct Mede[only attested in Old Persian]

Old Avestan is closely related to Old Persian and also in some extent close in nature to Vedic Sanskrit.

[SIZE=+1]Proto-Indo-European Roots[/SIZE]​

Root/Stem:

*sneigwh-

http://indoeuro.bizland.com/project/phonetics/word12.html

1 Hoffman, K. Encyclopaedia Iranica. AVESTAN LANGUAGE. III. The grammar of Avestan.: "The morphology of Avestan nouns, adjectives, pronouns, and verbs is, like that of the closely related Old Persian, inherited from Proto-Indo-European via Proto-Indo-Iranian (Proto-Aryan), and agrees largely with that of Vedic, the oldest known form of Indo-Aryan. The interpretation of the transmitted Avestan texts presents in many cases considerable difficulty for various reasons, both with respect to their contexts and their grammar. Accordingly, systematic comparison with Vedic is of much assistance in determining and explaining Avestan grammatical forms.

point in the direction of mountains with snow and or snow from which R1a went East and R1b went west . The dispersal was from somewhere with snow, where R1a and R1b were to the west of India; similar in latitude to Northern India like Northwest Iran. Not Ukraine, Volga or Andronovo region. Somewhere they use a similar term for snow in Europe. Not Barf or Baraf [Iran/Jammu/Cashmir/Himachel Pradesh/Urdu/Bengal rgions].Something like Av. snaēža- < OIr. *snaija-) compared to Gothic snáiws "snow" .



Somewhere that has the ccddee mutation even at low frequency [Kurds/Bannu-Swat]compared to Northern and Western Europe.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3262328/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19999224

A region with R1a/R1b variance. A region with variance in Vitis vinifera.
Somewhere grapes grow naturally to produce wine,and the subsequent naming in, Proto-Kartvelian, Proto-Indo-European,Proto Semitic.
Proto-Indo-European *we/oi(H)nyo-.
Proto-Armenian^[1][2][3][4] *ɣʷeinyo-
English-wine
German-wein
Polish-wino
Italian-vino
Armenian-gini
Welsh-gwin
Albanian-verë

Changes in pip shape (narrower in domesticated forms) and distribution point to domestication occurring about 3500–3000 BC, in southwest Asia, South Caucasus (Armenia and Georgia), or the Western Black Sea shore region (Romania and Bulgaria).

A region that is within lateral distance of almost all physically attested early examples of IE. or related languages[extinct mede,aveston-sanskrit] they were written in.
A region that has Indra/Mitra/Aruna/Varuna and some of the first horse training manuals.
A region with J2 found in Brahmans in India.
A region with a similar name to Middle_Media.

The Medes /midz/^{[N 1]} (Hebrew: מָדַי, Old Persian Māda-) were an ancient Iranian people^{[N 2]} who lived in an area known as Medi

Best fit for all above and PIE AC6 4000 B.C.-6000 B.C. R1a East Expansion into India, and North into Eastern Europe. R1b North into Bashkir, and Western Europe. X pattern between Black sea and Caspian.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0076748

 

[LeBrok]

I think Vedic Sanskrit-Avestan-Ancient extinct Mede[only attested in Old Persian]
Ok then, does it mean that you don't believe in Indian/Indus Valley origin of IEs, or they came to Persia from India? From you previous posts I deducted that you thought that Indo-Iranians or even IE were native to Indus Valley.

point in the direction of mountains with snow and or snow from which R1a went East and R1b went west

Why these migratory directions are so important to your hypothesis?

The dispersal was from somewhere with snow, where R1a and R1b were to the west of India; similar in latitude to Northern India like Northwest Iran. Not Ukraine, Volga or Andronovo region. Somewhere they use a similar term for snow in Europe. Not Barf or Baraf [Iran/Jammu/Cashmir/Himachel Pradesh/Urdu/Bengal rgions].Something like Av. snaēža- < OIr. *snaija-) compared to Gothic snáiws "snow" .

I don't understand a problem with Andronovo or Yamna in this context, I'm sure snow is attested there, even lots of snow. I must be missing some pieces of the puzzle with this one and with East/West.
Moreover, It doesn't look like horses were present in Near East before 2,000 BCE. Could Rig Veda be composed there if horses were not in their tradition? Unless Rig Veda is fairly late creation, closer to 1,000 BCE.

A region with R1a/R1b variance. A region with variance in Vitis vinifera.
Somewhere grapes grow naturally to produce wine,and the subsequent naming in, Proto-Kartvelian, Proto-Indo-European,Proto Semitic.
Proto-Indo-European *we/oi(H)nyo-.
Proto-Armenian^[1][2][3][4] *ɣʷeinyo-
English-wine
German-wein
Polish-wino
Italian-vino
Armenian-gini
Welsh-gwin
Albanian-verë

As long as Wine has huge probability not to be IE, we should really disregard this lead.

A region that has Indra/Mitra/Aruna/Varuna and some of the first horse training manuals.

Isn't it better and easier to look at archeology and history of horse domestication, carbon dating etc, than look at some manuals written as late as first millennium BCE?

A region with J2 found in Brahmans in India.

J2 is too broad and too old. You should look at subclades, same way we looked at subclades of R1a at Z93.

Best fit for all above and PIE AC6 4000 B.C.-6000 B.C. R1a East Expansion into India, and North into Eastern Europe. R1b North into Bashkir, and Western Europe. X pattern between Black sea and Caspian.

I think you really went back too far. Perhaps some genetic science can help us with migration but we never will be sure where PIE came from. We should concentrate on IE after 4,000 BC and Indo-Iranian after 3,000 BC. And even this doesn't come easy and is controversial.

 

[Silesian]

As long as Wine has huge probability not to be IE, we should really disregard this lead.....

I never want to disregard any possible lead, that could possibly shed some light on this interesting debate.

In my opinion, wine is a very interesting lead/subject. It really narrows down the region where R1b/R1a- PIE originated in my opinion. Grapes are one of the oldest known fruits and grow in certain climates naturally. Wine is a by-product of that. Wine and the possibility of PIE- R1b is very interesting in my opinion. When you look at the maps on R1b Z2105+ you can see it is heavily concentrated in Anatolia and Caucasus. This region has also been noted with high variance within the R1b community. Just as some are showing variance with R1a of the region. If you take a closer look at the word for wine, it is almost universally known in both Western and Eastern Europe by the same name.

The English word "wine" comes from the Proto-Germanic *winam, an early borrowing from the Latin vinum, "wine" or "(grape) vine", itself derived from the Proto-Indo-European stem *win-o- (cf. Hittite: wiyana; Lycian: oino; Ancient Greek: οἶνος oinos; Aeolic Greek: ϝοῖνος woinos, Armenian: gini).^{[9][10][11] .....Some scholars have noted the similarities between the words for wine in Kartvelian (e.g. Georgian ღვინო [ɣvinɔ]), Indo-European languages (e.g. Armenian gini, Latin vinum, Ancient Greek οἶνος, Russian вино [vino]), and Semitic (*wayn), pointing to the possibility of a common origin of the word denoting "wine" in these language families.[19] The Georgian word goes back to Proto-Kartvelian *ɣwino-,[20] which is probably borrowed from Proto-Armenian *ɣʷeinyo-,[21][22][23][24] whence Armenian gini. On the other hand, Fähnrich considers *ɣwino- a native South Caucasian word derived from the verbal root *ɣun- 'to bend'.[25] See *ɣwino- for more}

So it would not be a stretch to show that the origin of wine might be of interest to the PIE R1b/R1a regional debate.There really are only 3 choices in my opinion for the word to have entered into PIE.

1) Proto-Kartvelian
2) Proto-Semitic
3) Proto-Indo-European

At the very minimum the word for wine can be placed within the above regions. Most scholarly articles I have read seem to point to Caucasus region in both cultivation and variety of grapes and archeologically dated wine resin found within pottery . If true, that would point to Proto-Kartvelian and Proto-Indo-European being together.The same cannot be said for Proto-Semitic. For example in the table for grapes/wine in the below cited Appendix of Pro-Semitic words, take note the word for wine is not universal within proto-semitic branches.
Akaddian

Akkadian (lišānum akkadītum, 𒅎𒀝𒂵𒌈 ak.kADû) (also Accadian, Assyro-Babylonian)^[1] is an extinct Semitic language (part of the greater Afroasiatic language family) that was spoken in ancient Mesopotamia. The earliest attested Semitic language,^{[2].........By the second millennium BC, two variant forms of the language were in use in Assyria and Babylonia, known as Assyrian and Babylonian respectively.}

and Syriac

Syriac (ܠܫܢܐ ܣܘܪܝܝܐ Leššānā Suryāyā) is a dialect of Middle Aramaic that was once spoken across much of the Fertile Crescent and Eastern Arabia.^[2][3][4]

do not even have a word for wine.

Therefore we can logically deduce/conclude that the original Akkadians and Syriacs were not originally involved in the wine making process, using wild or cultivated grapes; perhaps dates?[how could you process something you do not have a name for?] Thereby eliminating their relation to PIE. The only other option would then be Hebrew, which also seems to fall short in relation to the Caucasus, of the origins of wine. I could only find one name in the Doctoral Thesis cited below which tries and show the origin of wine making within Hebrew context.

• ^ D. Jordan, An Offering of Wine, Doctoral Thesis, The Department of Semitic Studies, University of Sydney (2002)

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:List_of_Proto-Semitic_stems#cite_note-1

I think you really went back too far. Perhaps some genetic science can help us with migration but we never will be sure where PIE came from. We should concentrate on IE after 4,000 BC and Indo-Iranian after 3,000 BC. And even this doesn't come easy and is controversial.

What are your thoughts on Indo-Iranian words for snow, winter, ice and the spread with R1a ? Many areas where their are elevated frequencies of R1a in India, have no snow or ice, unlike Europe. How did these words enter into vocabulary ?

 

[Taranis]

So it would not be a stretch to show that the origin of wine might be of interest to the PIE R1b/R1a regional debate.There really are only 3 choices in my opinion for the word to have entered into PIE.

1) Proto-Kartvelian
2) Proto-Semitic
3) Proto-Indo-European

At the very minimum the word for wine can be placed within the above regions. Most scholarly articles I have read seem to point to Caucasus region in both cultivation and variety of grapes and archeologically dated wine resin found within pottery . If true, that would point to Proto-Kartvelian and Proto-Indo-European being together.The same cannot be said for Proto-Semitic. For example in the table for grapes/wine in the below cited Appendix of Pro-Semitic words, take note the word for wine is not universal within proto-semitic branches.
Akaddian

and Syriac
do not even have a word for wine.

Therefore we can logically deduce/conclude that the original Akkadians and Syriacs were not originally involved in the wine making process, using wild or cultivated grapes; perhaps dates?[how could you process something you do not have a name for?] Thereby eliminating their relation to PIE. The only other option would then be Hebrew, which also seems to fall short in relation to the Caucasus, of the origins of wine. I could only find one name in the Doctoral Thesis cited below which tries and show the origin of wine making within Hebrew context.

• ^ D. Jordan, An Offering of Wine, Doctoral Thesis, The Department of Semitic Studies, University of Sydney (2002)

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:List_of_Proto-Semitic_stems#cite_note-1

Full stop, you're making a lot of stretches here.

The word for "wine" used in the Indo-Iranic languages (including Sanskrit) is a reflex of PIE *medhu-. The connotation for "alcoholic beverage" is attested in a number of other Indo-European branches (Celtic, Germanic, Greek), but there's no meaning of "wine" attested. We additionally have the attestations for a meaning as "honey" (attested in Slavic and Tocharian), so as LeBrok suggested, the original meaning as "mead" (fermented honey) seems to be the most likely original meaning.

In all of the language families of northern Europe (Celtic, Germanic, Baltic, Slavic, as well as the obviously non-Indo-European Uralic languages), the word for "wine" is borrowed from Latin "vinum" (one can include Albanian "verë" in this group as well - although Albania is not located in northern Europe by any stretch). There is no reason to assume that any one of these IE branches inherited the word "wine" from Proto-Indo-European, which takes us back to the Mediterranean. Both the Latin ("vīnum") and Greek forms ("οινος" - earlier "ϝοινος") take us back to a common proto-form *woino-, which is unlikely to be inherited from Proto-Indo-European because its not attested anywhere else outside of loanwords.

Now with regard for the Semitic languages, you are making a completely wrong conclusion. The Hebrew word "jajin" exhibits the sound change *w- > *j- (which is why a Proto-Semitic form *w-j-n must be reconstructed - a triple root, which is very common for Proto-Semitic roots). This sound shift is not only found in Canaanite (including Hebrew and Phoenician), but also Ugaritic and Aramaic (including Syriac). In my opinion, the word is at least reconstructable for Northwest Semitic, because of its phonological history. Even if we say the word is borrowed from elsewhere, this is an old borrowing, as Proto-Semitic itself was probably spoken during the Neolithic (Proto-Semitic is without a doubt older than PIE, and its parent language, Proto-Afroasiatic, may be the oldest - uncontested - language family that we know of). Now we are left with Greek/Italic *woino- and Semitic *w-j-n, and while the Graeco-Italic form is not necessarily borrowed from Semitic, the two are clearly related: the Greeks certainly had contact with Semitic-speaking peoples (the Greek alphabet, after all, was borrowed from the Phoenician alphabet), and its also possible that one of the Pre-Greek ("Pelasgian", even though I despise the term) languages spoken in Greece was a Semitic language. Therefore, its plausible for the word "wine" to be a loanword, rather than an originally Indo-European word.

What are your thoughts on Indo-Iranian words for snow, winter, ice and the spread with R1a ? Many areas where their are elevated frequencies of R1a in India, have no snow or ice, unlike Europe. How did these words enter into vocabulary ?

I think it is very simple: Proto-Indo-Iranic did not originate in India (or the Iranian plateau, for that matter). People overlook often that there's a third branch - the Nuristani languages. In my opinion, the Hindukush region is a far more suitable place of origin for Proto-Indo-Iranic than the Iranian plateau or the Indus Valley region.

 

[Silesian]

Full stop, you're making a lot of stretches here.

Before we jump to honey let's first settle the quoted material below which is all about wine. Did the ancient Greeks and ancient Anatolian languages including nešili, have a word for wine , yes or no ? Did they even have pictographs for wine?

(cf. Hittite: wiyana; Lycian: oino ; Ancient Greek: οἶνος oinos; Aeolic Greek: ϝοῖνος woinos, Armenian: gini).^[9][10][11]

The population of most of the Hittite Empire by this time spoke Luwian dialects, another Indo-European language of the Anatolian family that had originated to the west of the Hittite region.

I think it is very simple: Proto-Indo-Iranic did not originate in India (or the Iranian plateau, for that matter). People overlook often that there's a third branch - the Nuristani languages. In my opinion, the Hindukush region is a far more suitable place of origin for Proto-Indo-Iranic than the Iranian plateau or the Indus Valley region.

Is this the region you envision ?

If it is, can you say if inhabitants were coming or going into this region?

For example at 6 minutes into the following video, were these people leaving the area or entering and general time frame 2000 B.C. -1500 B.C.?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-8JAdDbNWg

 

[Twilight]

Are there any Legends dating back to the Corded Ware or Texts; like the Rig Vedas for example?

 

[Silesian]

Are there any Legends dating back to the Corded Ware or Texts; like the Rig Vedas for example?

That is what I keep asking. I have questioned many people, including people who are familiar with Sanskrit Vedas. I'm waiting to meet someone who is fluent in Sanskrit in the next month or two; I'm looking forward to asking him this very question !

 

[Taranis]

Before we jump to honey let's first settle the quoted material below which is all about wine. Did the ancient Greeks and ancient Anatolian languages including nešili, have a word for wine , yes or no ? Did they even have pictographs for wine?

I don't know if you noticed it, but the various forms you give are by no means regular. Lycian "oino" is clearly borrowed from Greek (since Lycian to my knowledge preserved PIE *w). It is beyond me how you're supposed to build together a Proto-Anatolian form there. One of the greatest perils of the Anatolian hypothesis is that Anatolia abundantly has Pre-Indo-European languages (in particularly Hattian, and the Hurro-Urartian languages), which seem to have no relationship with the Indo-European languages. To me, it seems far more plausible that the Proto-Anatolians were immigrants from the steppe, as per the Kurgan scenario.

The case that you're trying to build up for the word "wine" to be reconstructable for Proto-Indo-European is very questionable, in my opinion:

- borrowed from Latin in Albanian, Baltic, Celtic, Germanic and Slavic
- unattested in Indo-Iranic (ancient literature uses a reflex of *medhu- instead, which is well-attested in other IE branches, but certainly not as "wine"), and Tocharian.
- Anatolian (no consistent Proto-form reconstructable).

- With the majority of Indo-European branches effectively eliminated, this leaves us only with Greek and Latin (which no doubt can be traced back to a common Proto-form) and Armenian (which may be borrowed from a Kartvelic source), and in my opinion, the Graeco-Latin *woino- is far more likely to have been picked up as a Mediterranean loanword rather than inherited from PIE.