Corded Ware / Iranic-Aryan split of IE?

Kurgan scenario...

Okay I still don't know if there is a word in Anatolian for wine, besides ancient Greek? However let's skip the Anatolian/Luwian and Hittite possibility of the word. Are ancient Greek, Phrygian, and Armenian, Albanian related to PIE and in any way to each other ? If so when did they split and what is the oldest attested of the above languages [Linear A/Linear B for example]?

ancient literature uses a reflex of *medhu- instead
I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed so for the sake of simplicity is it possible only to stick to the origin of wine, in the languages above ? Where in the region between did the word wine, come?
 
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Maybe not. However there is a PIE /proto-Kartvelian word for it. The terrain it was produced in was not really good for wagons.

J-C Billigmeier describes the wine as such:
'Greek oinos, earlier woinos, occurs in Linear B as wo-no, as does a derivative wo-na-si /woinassi/ "in (the) vineyards"....The word occurs in Hittite as wiyana and the root of it is seen in the non-Indo-European, pre-Hittite language known as Hattic in the word vinduqqaram "cupbearer, winepourer". Both the Semitic and the IE languages of the Eastern Mediterranean probably derived the word from a common Anatolian source.'

And Sir W. Ramsay 'Classical Review Vol.36 (1922)' derives the Greek oinos/woinos from the Hittite wiyana [Luwian: wiyani (wa/i-na Sultanhan F-G)]; Cambridge Uni. -
http://journals.cambridge.org/actio...DBD18DB8.journals?fromPage=online&aid=3743456

Given that viticulture first originated in the South Caucasus (~6th mil BC) it is most probable that the Indo-European branches that migrated their (Hittite/Luwian) adopted the native term which than other branches practising viticulture adopted from them (i.e. chain Hittite/Luwian>Greek>Latin etc.); The original Assyrian (Semitic) term for wine was karānu;
 
That is what I keep asking. I have questioned many people, including people who are familiar with Sanskrit Vedas. I'm waiting to meet someone who is fluent in Sanskrit in the next month or two; I'm looking forward to asking him this very question !


I'm sure that there are some Rig Vedas translations on Youtube :)
 
J-C Billigmeier describes the wine as such:
'Greek oinos, earlier woinos, occurs in Linear B as wo-no, as does a derivative wo-na-si /woinassi/ "in (the) vineyards"....The word occurs in Hittite as wiyana and the root of it is seen in the non-Indo-European, pre-Hittite language known as Hattic in the word vinduqqaram "cupbearer, winepourer". Both the Semitic and the IE languages of the Eastern Mediterranean probably derived the word from a common Anatolian source.'

And Sir W. Ramsay 'Classical Review Vol.36 (1922)' derives the Greek oinos/woinos from the Hittite wiyana [Luwian: wiyani (wa/i-na Sultanhan F-G)]; Cambridge Uni. -
http://journals.cambridge.org/actio...DBD18DB8.journals?fromPage=online&aid=3743456

Given that viticulture first originated in the South Caucasus (~6th mil BC) it is most probable that the Indo-European branches that migrated their (Hittite/Luwian) adopted the native term which than other branches practising viticulture adopted from them (i.e. chain Hittite/Luwian>Greek>Latin etc.); The original Assyrian (Semitic) term for wine was karānu;

Thank you. I don't understand the following entry under Proto-Kartvelian in relation to the adopted word for wine, in Armenian classified under Indo-European language.


The ablaut patterns of Proto-Kartvelian are highly similar to those of the Indo-European languages, and so it is widely thought that Proto-Kartvelian interacted with Indo-European at a relatively early date. This is reinforced by a fairly large number of words borrowed from Indo-European, such as the Proto-Kartvelian ṃḳerd (breast), and its possible relation to the Indo-European kerd (heart). Proto-Kartvelian *ṭep “warm” may also be directly derived from Indo-European *tep “warm”.[1] [ It is also asserted that the name of wine in Indo-European languages is borrowed from Proto-Kartvelian *ɣwino, implicating quite close relations between these languages.???]

Did Proto-Kartvelian
Proto-Kartvelian *ɣwino
have a similar word for wine as the Armenians, Greeks, Latins, Hattics ,Hebrews; but not Syriacs- Akkadians or Assyrians[karānu]? If so did Proto-Kartvelians have contact with proto-Armenian, proto-Latin,Hattic,proto-Greek , and ancient Hebrew speakers?


http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:List_of_Proto-Semitic_stems#cite_note-1

compare
wayn-Arabic
yayin-Hebrew
yen-Phonecian
?-Akkadian
?-Syrian

karānu-Assyrian [Is it possible R1a/b samples in Assyrians are not related to ancient Syriacs or Akkadians?]

Does archeological evidence support 6000-8000 year history of wine [Proto-Kartvelian *ɣwino] ? If so did the Proto-Kartvelians and Hattics have a name for the grapes,pottery and other ingredients for the wine process; that was later adopted by Indo-European speakers like Greeks/Latins/Armenians/Hittites whose ancestors came from the steppe ?
 
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"baraf" means ice and "him" means snow in Hindi. The Himalayas were named because of the snow. Hindu Kush means to kill Hindus so the Hindus who crossed the mountains would be killed or alternatively those who wanted to kill Hindus would cross the Hindu Kush mountains to kill Hindus. It shows the split of Iranians and Indians quite well.

The Hittites were R1b and Mitannis R1a.
 
I just watched Anthony Bourdain trip to India. He always presents many cultural aspects besides of food. During this presentation it's been mentioned that Punjab is a province from where the big fierce warriors are coming from.
Well, it is an oral legend, but this is also the place of highest lactose tolerance in India and Haryana is located next door. This place lies in more moderate climatic zone when it comes to India, and only 100km from Himalayan foothills where British spent hiding through hot Indian summer, Shimla.

Wouldn't this be the perfect place for conquerors from Central Asia to stay in India?
 
Punjabis are, I think, the descendants of the Kushans from the Tarim Basin. During the Tang Dynasty one Kushan reached a very high level in the Tang military and tried to take over. The Kushans were defeated and driven out of the Tarim Basin. Their castles and fortifications were all destroyed. The Kushans then went west and defeated the Parthians and conquered Pakistan. They were Buddhists and it is they who introduced Buddhism to China. They were eventually defeated by the Indians and only a remnant exist and created Sikhism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuezhi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushan_Empire
http://www.indianmirror.com/dynasty/kushandynasty.html

Foods are a good topic. In Darjeeling we used to eat Yak "cheese". It is hard as plastic. You scraped your teeth to eat it. Then there is the paratha kabab. Skewered beef pieces marinated or covered with curry and spices with raw sliced onions wrapped with paratha.

Indian food seems mostly spicy and very sweet to offset the spices. Chowpatty in Bombay Marine Drive beach is the place to go for deserts.

We used to eat street food with flies flying all over but we never got sick. Being born there so we were immune. But if I go there now I would have to be vaccinated or something.
 
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Punjabis are, I think, the descendants of the Kushans from the Tarim Basin. During the Tang Dynasty one Kushan reached a very high level in the Tang military and tried to take over. The Kushans were defeated and driven out of the Tarim Basin. Their castles and fortifications were all destroyed. The Kushans then went west and defeated the Parthians and conquered Pakistan. They were Buddhists and it is they who introduced Buddhism to China. They were eventually defeated by the Indians and only a remnant exist and created Sikhism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuezhi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushan_Empire
http://www.indianmirror.com/dynasty/kushandynasty.html

Foods are a good topic. In Darjeeling we used to eat Yak "cheese". It is hard as plastic. You scraped your teeth to eat it. Then there is the paratha kabab. Beef pieces marinated or covered with curry and spices with raw sliced onions wrapped with paratha.

Indian food seems mostly spicy and very sweet to offset the spices. Chowpatty in Bombay Marine Drive beach is the place to go for deserts.

We used to eat street with flies flying all over but we never got sick. Being born there so we were immune. But if I go there now I would have to be vaccinated or something.

I might not be able to see India at all, I just can't stand Curry Spice. I tried few times and I'm getting mild allergic reaction, beside the fact that it doesn't taste good for me.
 
it doesn't taste good for me.

The Indian curries are very spicy,try milder ones. Just buy curry powder and fry some potatoes and put a little curry powder. It is not the taste. It burns a bit but after a few a while you get used to it then you get a craving. The burn gets the body to produce saliva and sweat which cleanses the body.

There is Thailand curry, Chinese curry and Vietnamese curry. Usually Southeast Asian countries have dished with mild curry. The British love curry after so many Indians and Pakistanis immigrated there. When the British controlled India they hardly touched curry.

Curry is a mixture of many spices. Tumeric is a very good spice in terms of health. The craving could come from the body as it provides the body nourishment. It is like dark chocolate which does not taste good but has many benefits. Tumeric helps prevent certain diseases. There isn't much cancer in India. Indians eat a lot of veggies so it could also also account for better health.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_spices
http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-indian-spices.php
 
Life expectancy is an indication of wealth. India at the time I was there was very poor. It was a Dickensonian world. Children were mutilated to earn a living as beggars. Beggars were very common. Having seen so many poor beggars and grown up with them somehow inoculated me from being overly empathetic towards them. It is like a platform of the given just as kids these days have smartphones as a given never having a thought about their development. Technology was a given for kids these days as much as beggars were a given at that time for me.

Majority of Indians were poor. Rickshawallas earned only a dollar or two a day. Their only food was a bag of chuttoo (powdered chickpeas) for lunch. Chuttoo has a lot of energy and protein. They also had a family to support. With kind of poverty let me know if life expectancy can be high.
 
Life expectancy is an indication of wealth. India at the time I was there was very poor. It was a Dickensonian world. Children were mutilated to earn a living as beggars. Beggars were very common. Having seen so many poor beggars and grown up with them somehow inoculated me from being overly empathetic towards them. It is like a platform of the given just as kids these days have smartphones as a given never having a thought about their development. Technology was a given for kids these days as much as beggars were a given at that time for me.

Majority of Indians were poor. Rickshawallas earned only a dollar or two a day. Their only food was a bag of chuttoo (powdered chickpeas) for lunch. Chuttoo has a lot of energy and protein. They also had a family to support. With kind of poverty let me know if life expectancy can be high.
Of course you are right.

My ancestral food is central european. Somehow it doesn't give me pleasure to smell or taste anything made with Cumin or Cardamon, I'm not sure which one is to blame in Curry. Perhaps people in India are more predisposed to make the best of these ingredients and nutrients from their spices. They eat them for good few thousands of years. They might even developed a special gene to take the best from this food, like Europeans with milk.
 
The Indo-Aryans also came from Central Asia. I really wouldn't know too much about spices. I just get the curry powder but probably tumeric is the most important. I agree people are different so certain foods may not agree with their digestive system.s Just like Lactase Intolerance. Howwever, I can drink milk and consume other dairy products without problem. Only recently I found about this thing about lactase intolerance. I guess those born in the British Empire would have adapted to milk as the British put milk in just about everything: tea, porridge, various foods and drinks. Even Indians have milk in certain foods and curries.
 
There's no longer any logic behind claims that there were additional migrations from the Near East into Eastern Europe to those that affected Western and Central Europe during the Neolithic. That's because all of the Near Eastern admixture in Eastern Europe can be explained by gene flow from early Neolithic farmers from Central Europe. The stats are very robust in that regard.

This poses a major problem for anyone who still wants to see the origin of R1a in the Near East. That's because R1a really doesn't look like it was part of the Neolithic package, and yet it's by far the most important Y-chromosome haplogroup in Eastern Europe today. So something else must explain the presence of R1a in Eastern Europe and the Near East, and the most sensible option is the same third party gene flow into both regions.

Eastern Europe and West Asia appear to be closely related in terms of genome-wide genetic structure, like, for instance, in ADMIXTURE analyses via ancestral clusters that peak in the Caucasus. But this is something of an illusion, because global and West Eurasian-specific PCA show that these two regions are not related via direct gene flow (except some recent Russian admixture in the North Caucasus).

For instance, here's a PCA of West Eurasia. Just like in all other correctly run analyses of this type, Eastern Europe and the northern part of the Near East, including the Caucasus, deviate towards the same direction in the east, but not towards each other (except, like I say, some North Caucasians who are pushed north towards Russia due to recent admixture).

docs.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQVlFTQ0oyRXNoaTQ/edit

Until recently it was impossible to know the reason for this phenomenon. I speculated that it was due to a lack of west Mediterranean ancestry in these regions, which is actually partly true, while others thought it was due to Hunnic and other admixtures from the far east. But if you look closely at the top right corner of the PCA, you'll see that MA-1, or Malt'a boy, is sitting there, and most Europeans and West Asians are actually being pulled towards his direction in varying degrees. The reason MA-1 is so far outside the range of modern genetic variation is because, unlike in some recent academic studies, he's not being projected onto the plot. Also, I limited the South Central Asian samples to Pathans and a single Kalash to make sure that South Asian admixture and heavy genetic drift typical of the Hindu Kush and surrounds didn't skew the results too much.

Needless to say, I don't think it's a coincidence that MA-1 belonged to Y-chromosome haplogroup R, and in fact it's clear to me that R1a is a marker of his relatives who contributed to the European and Near Eastern gene pools. The main question now is where exactly did this MA-1 related gene flow originate from. Based on all the data to date, the best we can say is that it was somewhere east of Central Europe and north of the Near East. The timeframe is likely to have been the Copper Age, because it follows the Neolithic, when Mediterranean-like farmers ruled Central Europe, and precedes the Bronze Age, when pre-proto-Uralics heavy in ENA (modern Siberian admixture) probably moved west of the Urals.

I'm sure that a couple of genomes from around the middle Volga from the Neolithic and Copper Age will be very useful in this context, and are likely to answer a lot of questions, including the most important ones about R1a and the Proto-Indo-Europeans.

By the way, I'm curious how any of you can still read these sorts of papers on Y-chromosome haplogroups with a straight face? Anyone who's been subjected to years of dubious and naive interpretations of limited data from academics in this area of study should really know better.
 
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There's no longer any logic behind claims that there were additional migrations from the Near East into Eastern Europe to those that affected Western and Central Europe during the Neolithic. That's because all of the Near Eastern admixture in Eastern Europe can be explained by gene flow from early Neolithic farmers from Central Europe. The stats are very robust in that regard.

This poses a major problem for anyone who still wants to see the origin of R1a in the Near East. That's because R1a really doesn't look like it was part of the Neolithic package, and yet it's by far the most important Y-chromosome haplogroup in Eastern Europe today. So something else must explain the presence of R1a in Eastern Europe and the Near East, and the most sensible option is the same third party gene flow into both regions.

Eastern Europe and West Asia appear to be closely related in terms of genome-wide genetic structure, like, for instance, in ADMIXTURE analyses via ancestral clusters that peak in the Caucasus. But this is something of an illusion, because global and West Eurasian-specific PCA show that these two regions are not related via direct gene flow (except some recent Russian admixture in the North Caucasus).

For instance, here's a PCA of West Eurasia. Just like in all other correctly run analyses of this type, Eastern Europe and the northern part of the Near East, including the Caucasus, deviate towards the same direction in the east, but not towards each other (except, like I say, some North Caucasians who are pushed north towards Russia due to recent admixture).

docs.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQVlFTQ0oyRXNoaTQ/edit

Until recently it was impossible to know the reason for this phenomenon. I speculated that it was due to a lack of west Mediterranean ancestry in these regions, which is actually partly true, while others thought it was due to Hunnic and other admixtures from the far east. But if you look closely at the top right corner of the PCA, you'll see that MA-1, or Malt'a boy, is sitting there, and most Europeans and West Asians are actually being pulled towards his direction in varying degrees. The reason MA-1 is so far outside the range of modern genetic variation is because, unlike in some recent academic studies, he's not being projected onto the plot. Also, I limited the South Central Asian samples to Pathans and a single Kalash to make sure that South Asian admixture and heavy genetic drift typical of the Hindu Kush and surrounds didn't skew the results too much.

Needless to say, I don't think it's a coincidence that MA-1 belonged to Y-chromosome haplogroup R, and in fact it's clear to me that R1a is a marker of his relatives who contributed to the European and Near Eastern gene pools. The main question now is where exactly did this MA-1 related gene flow originate from. Based on all the data to date, the best we can say is that it was somewhere east of Central Europe and north of the Near East. The timeframe is likely to have been the Copper Age, because it follows the Neolithic, when Mediterranean-like farmers ruled Central Europe, and precedes the Bronze Age, when pre-proto-Uralics heavy in ENA (modern Siberian admixture) probably moved west of the Urals.

I'm sure that a couple of genomes from around the middle Volga from the Neolithic and Copper Age will be very useful in this context, and are likely to answer a lot of questions, including the most important ones about R1a and the Proto-Indo-Europeans.

By the way, I'm curious how any of you can still read these sorts of papers on Y-chromosome haplogroups with a straight face? Anyone who's been subjected to years of dubious and naive interpretations of limited data from academics in this area of study should really know better.

where does this fit in then?
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/2014/04/new-page-early-kurgan-expansion-maps.html
 

Is that a trick question?

ANE and R1a probably expanded during the Copper Age from the red area marked as early Yamnaya. There might have been some significant genetic substructures within this zone, like with more ANE in the east and more WHG in the west, but in any case, the earliest Indo-Europeans expanding in all directions had to have had very high ratios of ANE. That's because WHG is almost missing among Greeks, and, as far as we know, it's basically missing in Asia.

My very rough guess is that this guy from the proto-Yamnaya Khvalynsk culture was 60% ANE, 20% WHG and 20% EEF.

i0le.jpg



IE1.png
 
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By the way, I'm curious how any of you can still read these sorts of papers on Y-chromosome haplogroups with a straight face? Anyone who's been subjected to years of dubious and naive interpretations of limited data from academics in this area of study should really know better.

What do you think about my new signature, kind of matches my K12 result's?


R1b-U5b_{ West of Lake Baikal, dated to c. 24,000 years BP-yDNA R* and mtDNA U* }
R1b. Eastern European Cluster L584- L277-
U5b2a2 is frequent in central Europe (with the highest frequency of its subcluster U5b2a2a1 in Poles) and dated as between 12–18 kya, depending on the mutation rate used
Celebrating Biodiversity

Eurogenes K12:
South Baltic 30.45%
North Sea 20.18%
Western European 18.21%
Volga-Ural 16.18%
Mediterranean 8.12%
Caucasus 5.57%
South Asian 1.28%

K36 population & regions R1b E.E. cluster and U5b are found together

East_Central_Euro-22.93-R1b E.E. cluster+U5b
Eastern_Euro-17.15%-R1b E.E. cluster+U5b
North_Sea-11.06%
North_Atlantic-9.18%
Fennoscandian-8.36%
Central_Euro-7.12%--R1b E.E. cluster+U5b
Italian-6.17%
Iberian-4.94%
French-4.80%
North_Caucasian-2.75%
East_Balkan-2.53%
Volga-Ural-2.10%--R1b E.E. cluster{Bashkir}+U5b
West_Med-0.90%



 
There's no longer any logic behind claims that there were additional migrations from the Near East into Eastern Europe to those that affected Western and Central Europe during the Neolithic. That's because all of the Near Eastern admixture in Eastern Europe can be explained by gene flow from early Neolithic farmers from Central Europe. The stats are very robust in that regard.
It was also one of my points in this discussion.

Until recently it was impossible to know the reason for this phenomenon. I speculated that it was due to a lack of west Mediterranean ancestry in these regions, which is actually partly true, while others thought it was due to Hunnic and other admixtures from the far east. But if you look closely at the top right corner of the PCA, you'll see that MA-1, or Malt'a boy, is sitting there, and most Europeans and West Asians are actually being pulled towards his direction in varying degrees. The reason MA-1 is so far outside the range of modern genetic variation is because, unlike in some recent academic studies, he's not being projected onto the plot.
What do you mean by not being projected onto the plot?

Needless to say, I don't think it's a coincidence that MA-1 belonged to Y-chromosome haplogroup R, and in fact it's clear to me that R1a is a marker of his relatives who contributed to the European and Near Eastern gene pools. The main question now is where exactly did this MA-1 related gene flow originate from.
R1a spent so much time in South/Central Asia that it must have been spread throughout the region as hunter gatherer communities. Somehow it missed the Early Farmer revolution, and only came to substance once Z93 clade became herders in central Asia and Z282 farmers in eastern Europe. Before that R1a was small in numbers and lived in secluded hunter communities.


I'm sure that a couple of genomes from around the middle Volga from the Neolithic and Copper Age will be very useful in this context, and are likely to answer a lot of questions, including the most important ones about R1a and the Proto-Indo-Europeans.
Can't wait for new findings.

By the way, I'm curious how any of you can still read these sorts of papers on Y-chromosome haplogroups with a straight face? Anyone who's been subjected to years of dubious and naive interpretations of limited data from academics in this area of study should really know better.
I'm not sure what you meant, could you elaborate?
 
Is that a trick question?

ANE and R1a probably expanded during the Copper Age from the red area marked as early Yamnaya. There might have been some significant genetic substructures within this zone, like with more ANE in the east and more WHG in the west, but in any case, the earliest Indo-Europeans expanding in all directions had to have had very high ratios of ANE. That's because WHG is almost missing among Greeks, and, as far as we know, it's basically missing in Asia.

My very rough guess is that this guy from the proto-Yamnaya Khvalynsk culture was 60% ANE, 20% WHG and 20% EEF.
I think they might have started with 70 ANE and 30 WHG. Then EEF was trickling down during couple of millennia from Cucuteni close by. Once they've reached 30-40% EEF they moved North-East as Corded Ware farming culture.
 

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