Genome of Iron Age Thracian

[Sile]

I know that;
Thats pre-hysteria of the current study; p.6 is very informative with the noble Thracians are close to modern Central/North Europeans and the common/peasant (more Neolithic) Thracians are closer to modern South Europeans (Tuscans); But the current study has both Thracians in the center of all modern Europeans (Figure S2) but also K8 clusters more towards North/Central and P192-1 clusters more towards South (more Neolithic); I thought both but app. just P192-1 (the pit corpse) is U3 mtDNA;

Agreed

the paper states U3b for the "peasant"

I was wondering if the "royal" was part of the varna culture

 

[LeBrok]

Agreed

the paper states U3b for the "peasant"

I was wondering if the "royal" was part of the varna culture

Varna culture was Neolithic Copper, we are in Iron age with these specimens.

 

[kamani]

All these papers showing that 1/2 of Europe was "Sardinian" EEF up until the Iron Age, leads me to believe that there has been a massive migration from North Europe into the Balkans and the Italian Peninsula, sometime around Iron Age.

 

[polako]

In the opening post it says the two Iron Age individuals were Ötzi like (so basically EEF DNA) so how can they be similar to modern Bulgarians which have a good chunk of ANE and WHG in form of Caucasus_Gedrosia and North European?

Nowhere in the study does it say that both of the Thracians were Oetzi-like.

It actually very clear states that there was no pattern for the two Thracians, with the one buried in the pit being more Oetzi and Sardinian-like, and the one from the Kurgan more Russian-like. It suggests this might be due to DNA contamination (presumably with Eastern European-like DNA), but this would be an odd coincidence considering that Kurgans spread into the Balkans from Eastern Europe.

 

[Sile]

Nowhere in the study does it say that both of the Thracians were Oetzi-like.

It actually very clear states that there was no pattern for the two Thracians, with the one buried in the pit being more Oetzi and Sardinian-like, and the one from the Kurgan more Russian-like. It suggests this might be due to DNA contamination (presumably with Eastern European-like DNA), but this would be an odd coincidence considering that Kurgans spread into the Balkans from Eastern Europe.

Kurgan culture?.....3000BC this culture ended,......... K8 is from 450BC ..........you actually think no other culture was around between kurgan culture period and the k8 thracian homeland in his lifetime!
We are talking of the years ~450BC , many historians are around and can tell us the history, Macedonia is emerging, Illyrians are moving south th confront the macedonians and thracians/dacians ,migrations are basically finished unless its due to conquests. Ancient Iron-age Europe is basically set. Bronze-age mass migrations is finished.

 

[polako]

Kurgan culture?.....3000BC this culture ended,......... K8 is from 450BC ..........you actually think no other culture was around between kurgan culture period and the k8 thracian homeland in his lifetime!
We are talking of the years ~450BC , many historians are around and can tell us the history, Macedonia is emerging, Illyrians are moving south th confront the macedonians and thracians/dacians ,migrations are basically finished unless its due to conquests. Ancient Iron-age Europe is basically set. Bronze-age mass migrations is finished.

Yes, Thracian Tumuli are essentially Kurgans. It's common knowledge.

• The Thracian Tomb of Kazanlak, near the town of Kazanlak in central Bulgaria, is a Thracian kurgan of c. the 4th century BC.
• The Thracian Tomb of Sveshtari, Bulgaria, is a Thracian kurgan of c. the 3rd century BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan

 

[Fire Haired14]

You're on a thread about the two Iron Age Thracians. That's the paper that was posted. Hadn't you noticed?

These are the modern Bulgarian numbers as per Lazaridis et al. No need to guess...
EEF: .712
WHG: .147
ANE: .141

They seem to be closest to the north Italians, which Cavalli-Sforza told us more than twenty years ago.
EEF: .715
WHG: .177
ANE: .108

They are not as close to Sardinians.
Sardinian numbers:
EEF: .817
WHG: .175
ANE: .008

Then we have Maltese, Ashkenazi Jews, Sicilians etc., who are more than 90% EEF.

So, no, they're not as Oetzi like as their ancestors.

Ed. Alan wasn't assuming anything; he was repeating the findings of the paper.

Ed. 2 To add numbers for northern Italians

Much of their EEF is non early European farmer middle eastern ancestry. Not all Europeans have the same middle eastern ancestors. In admixtures Italians and Balkeners always score significant numbers in southwest Asian and west Asian specific components, which were close to none existent in early European farmers. The fact that Ashkenazi Jews(who have alot of recent south-west Asian ancestry) scored 90% EEF, is great evidence early European farmers descended mainly from the same ancient middle eastern source as do modern middle easterns, just both have some non-middle eastern ancestry.

 

[Sile]

Yes, Thracian Tumuli are essentially Kurgans. It's common knowledge.

• The Thracian Tomb of Kazanlak, near the town of Kazanlak in central Bulgaria, is a Thracian kurgan of c. the 4th century BC.
• The Thracian Tomb of Sveshtari, Bulgaria, is a Thracian kurgan of c. the 3rd century BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan

Sveshtari is a getic tomb type not kurgan as per your link, the getic /getae are a branch of thracian tribes

The Getae or Gets (Ancient Greek: Γέται, singular Γέτης; Bulgarian: Гети; Romanian: Geţi) are names given to several Thracian tribes inhabiting the regions to either side of the Lower Danube, in what is today northern Bulgaria and southern Romania. Both the singular form Get and Getae may be derived from a Greek exonym: the area was the hinterland of Greek colonies on the Black Sea coast, bringing the Getae into contact with the Ancient Greeks from an early date.

According to Herodotus, the Getae were "the noblest as well as the most just of all the Thracian tribes."^[47] When the Persians, led by Darius the Great, campaigned against the Scythians, the Thracian tribes in the Balkans surrendered to Darius on his way to Scythia, and only the Getae offered resistance.^[47]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getae

to long has passed in centuries for these Getae thracian to have any association with the Kurgan culture ( over 25 centuries had passed )

 

[polako]

Sveshtari is a getic tomb type not kurgan as per your link, the getic /getae are a branch of thracian tribes

The Getae or Gets (Ancient Greek: Γέται, singular Γέτης; Bulgarian: Гети; Romanian: Geţi) are names given to several Thracian tribes inhabiting the regions to either side of the Lower Danube, in what is today northern Bulgaria and southern Romania. Both the singular form Get and Getae may be derived from a Greek exonym: the area was the hinterland of Greek colonies on the Black Sea coast, bringing the Getae into contact with the Ancient Greeks from an early date.

According to Herodotus, the Getae were "the noblest as well as the most just of all the Thracian tribes."^[47] When the Persians, led by Darius the Great, campaigned against the Scythians, the Thracian tribes in the Balkans surrendered to Darius on his way to Scythia, and only the Getae offered resistance.^[47]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getae

to long has passed in centuries for these Getae thracian to have any association with the Kurgan culture ( over 25 centuries had passed )

The Thracians were a continuation of the Indo-European cultures of Eastern Europe. You can see it in their archeological remains and now their DNA (blue component in the Admixture analysis).

It is what it is. You can keep mumbling that up is down and down is up, but it won't change a thing.

 

[Sile]

The Thracians were a continuation of the Indo-European cultures of Eastern Europe. You can see it in their archeological remains and now their DNA (blue component in the Admixture analysis).

It is what it is. You can keep mumbling that up is down and down is up, but it won't change a thing.

are you getting your theories/ideas from here

http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2010-05-31.pdf

 

[polako]

are you getting your theories/ideas from here

http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2010-05-31.pdf

They're not my theories. They're theories of mainstream archeologists and historians based on the last 50 years of work by many qualified people.

 

[Fire Haired14]

In the admixture K8 is obviously much more north European-like than P192.1, he may be as much WHG+ANE as French are. K8 is certainly more WHG-ANE than modern south-east Europeans, so it makes sense that he was an upper-class Indo European. Also, P192.1 obviously has post Neolithic south-west Asian ancestry, as do modern Italians and Balkaners, and this study exaggerated the Iron age Thracian's Sardinianism. This is exciting to me, because it is evidence post-Neolithic south-west Asian ancestry in the Balkans and Italy is not from the Greeks, Romans, Estruscans, etc. but is something much older.

 

[Fire Haired14]

They're not my theories. They're theories of mainstream archeologists and historians based on the last 50 years of work by many qualified people.

The kurgen hypothesis is more true now than it ever was, because of DNA.

 

[Sile]

It would seem that Ms Gimbutas was correct in her Kurgan theory

another paper below on this kurgan - thracian union

http://users.cwnet.com/millenia/The Etruscan People and language.htm

 

[Alan]

All these papers showing that 1/2 of Europe was "Sardinian" EEF up until the Iron Age, leads me to believe that there has been a massive migration from North Europe into the Balkans and the Italian Peninsula, sometime around Iron Age.

Why only from the North? Modern Bulgarians have a good chunk of ANE in form of Caucasus_Gedrosia. I assume this extra H&G admixture came through the Indo Europeans who were more Caucasus_Gedrosia+North European admixed than the farmers. This is the only explanation why modern Bulgarians have a good chunk of Caucasus_Gedrosia.

 

[Alan]

Nowhere in the study does it say that both of the Thracians were Oetzi-like.

It actually very clear states that there was no pattern for the two Thracians, with the one buried in the pit being more Oetzi and Sardinian-like, and the one from the Kurgan more Russian-like. It suggests this might be due to DNA contamination (presumably with Eastern European-like DNA), but this would be an odd coincidence considering that Kurgans spread into the Balkans from Eastern Europe.

Russian-like can mean allot of things, if we take into account that allot of scientist consider Northern Caucasus as part of the Russian horizon. I doubt that this one individual was exactly like modern Russians.

But I agree that this individual is a sign of Indo European admixture into the Balkans.

But yet this study gives us the evidence that not allot earlier this region was still farmer like. If one individual was Ötzi like and the other at least by half.

 

[Alan]

In the admixture K8 is obviously much more north European-like than P192.1, he may be as much WHG+ANE as French are. K8 is certainly more WHG-ANE than modern south-east Europeans, so it makes sense that he was an upper-class Indo European. Also, P192.1 obviously has post Neolithic south-west Asian ancestry, as do modern Italians and Balkaners, and this study exaggerated the Iron age Thracian's Sardinianism. This is exciting to me, because it is evidence post-Neolithic south-west Asian ancestry in the Balkans and Italy is not from the Greeks, Romans, Estruscans, etc. but is something much older.

Angela and I already said earlier that this "Southwest Asian" in Europe is older and likely Neolithic, since even Ötzi had some of it?

 

[Wilhelm]

Russian-like can mean allot of things, if we take into account that allot of scientist consider Northern Caucasus as part of the Russian horizon. I doubt that this one individual was exactly like modern Russians. f.

What are you talking about ? What caucasus ? The blue component peaks in Russians (and they are not russians from Caucasus), so it's obviously a North-East European-like component.

 

[Fire Haired14]

What are you talking about ? What caucasus ? The blue component peaks in Russians (and they are not russians from Caucasus), so it's obviously a North-East European-like component.

Actually the blue component is north Eurasian hunter gatherer(WHG, and or ANE)+middle eastern. West Asian(centered in the Caucasus) and North European(centered in north-east Europe) components form as one component with a limited amount of samples and at low K's.

 

[polako]

Why only from the North? Modern Bulgarians have a good chunk of ANE in form of Caucasus_Gedrosia. I assume this extra H&G admixture came through the Indo Europeans who were more Caucasus_Gedrosia+North European admixed than the farmers. This is the only explanation why modern Bulgarians have a good chunk of Caucasus_Gedrosia.

The so called Caucasus_Gedrosia cluster is a meaningless concept in the context of ancient migrations, because it's a signal of ANE mixing with EEF across a very wide range in Eurasia, but also recent isolation, endogamy and heavy genetic drift in very specific isolated places like the Caucasus and Hindu Kush.

Russian-like can mean allot of things, if we take into account that allot of scientist consider Northern Caucasus as part of the Russian horizon. I doubt that this one individual was exactly like modern Russians.

These Russians are from the HGDP, which means they were sampled in Kargopol in northwestern Russia.

They're unlikely to be a perfect proxy for the proto-Thracians from the steppe, but they actually do a very good job at teasing out the signal of admixture from the north that made the Thracians, and which Oetzi lacks except at noise levels.