Genome of Iron Age Thracian

Angela and I already said earlier that this "Southwest Asian" in Europe is older and likely Neolithic, since even Ötzi had some of it?

Sure Otzi scores in it but much much much much less than modern Italians and Balkaners do. The southwest Asians that brought farming to Europe 9,000 years ago, had no ANE or African ancestry, unlike modern southwest Asians. Plus, the subclades early European farmers had in middle eastern haplogroups like H and J, have been separated from the subclades modern southwest asians mainly have for well over 10,000 years, so even their middle eastern ancestry is distant. Italians and Balkaners have POST-NEOLITHIC modern southwest Asian-like ancestry, and P192.1 is evidence it was already in Bulgaria by 2,800-2,500 years ago.
 
These Russians are from the HGDP, which means they were sampled in Kargopol in northwestern Russia.

They're unlikely to be a perfect proxy for the proto-Thracians from the steppe, but they actually do a very good job at teasing out the signal of admixture from the north that made the Thracians, and which Oetzi lacks except at noise levels.

Do you really think Kargopol Russians are good proxies for proto-Indo Europeans?

No autosomal DNA has been sampled from proto-Indo Europeans, so we don't know how much hunter(WHG+ANE) and middle eastern(mainly or entirely EEF) they were, and specifically the ones who were partial ancestors of Iron age Thracians. We do know though that Yamna and Catcacomb people were darker haired and eyed than any modern Europeans(including Sardinians), and the dark eyes means they were probably mainly EEF, and can't be responsible for K8's extra WHG and or ANE ancestry. There are other possibilities, maybe Thracian royalty mixed with Scythian or a northern Iron age people's royalty, and K8 was a grandchild of this type of mix. Maybe proto-Thracians were closely related to porto-Indo Iranians and Tocherians, and therefore probably more WHG-ANE than Yamna and Catcacomb people.
 
The Eurogenes blog provides some comments on these finds, summarizing with this comment:

"In other words, perhaps K8 belonged to a ruling class of steppe origin, while P192-1 was of native Balkan stock, whose ancestors were conquered centuries earlier by the steppe nomads and forced to live as an underclass? If so, it wouldn't be the only time in history that this sort of thing has happened, especially within Indo-European societies."

If you agree with that conclusion, K8 may provide an example of who the IE folk were genetically, if you assume that he was of unmixed IE ancestry. I think that an Iron Age person in the Balkans would more likely be descended from a mixture of folk, but if one assumes that he is fully IE, and that the results aren't partly because of contamination, this one sample could provide a starting point for figuring out who the IE folk were, genetically. And it would explain the difference in results for the two samples.
 
What are you talking about ? What caucasus ? The blue component peaks in Russians (and they are not russians from Caucasus), so it's obviously a North-East European-like component.


Ok modern Balkanians have roughly 20% Caucasus_Gedrosia admixture. Up to the Iron Age the whole Balkan region was more farmer like. Who or what could have brought this Caucasus_Gedrosia component into the Balkans? Mal'ta a proxy for ANE component was more Caucasus_Gedrosia_Kalash like than anything else. And don't we know from the Lazardis paper that North European and Caucasus_Gedrosia share one common ancestor (ANE) and that modern Russian genetics is also significantly Caucasus_Gedrosia_Kalash admixed. How do you know that this "blue" component is entirely made up of North European?

To understand what I mean you first need to understand what these "blue" components are really made off. What if this blue component is simply ANE? And I don't even see any North Caucasian samples used. Why? And even if this one individual was more "Russian like". How does this prove that the Kurgan people were too? How does an Iron Age individual from 450 bc proves that the Kurgan people from 3000 bc were the same?

Explain that.
 
Do you really think Kargopol Russians are good proxies for proto-Indo Europeans?

No, they're not, for a number of reasons, including relatively low ANE (I think PIE had much higher ANE than any modern Euros) and fairly high Siberian admix, at around 5%, which I suspect is higher than what PIE had.

But that's not really important. They do the job in this study, in spite of the fact that the ADMIXTURE analysis isn't all that great, although better than the crappy PCA.

If you agree with that conclusion, K8 may provide an example of who the IE folk were genetically, if you assume that he was of unmixed IE ancestry. I think that an Iron Age person in the Balkans would more likely be descended from a mixture of folk, but if one assumes that he is fully IE, and that the results aren't partly because of contamination, this one sample could provide a starting point for figuring out who the IE folk were, genetically. And it would explain the difference in results for the two samples.

There's no reason to assume that a Balkan individual from the Iron Age would still be genetically indistinguishable from the Proto-Indo-Europeans, who lived during the dawn of the Copper Age near the Volga somewhere, even if this individual was from some direct royal line originating among those Proto-Indo-Europeans.
 
Ok modern Balkanians have roughly 20% Caucasus_Gedrosia admixture. Up to the Iron Age the whole Balkan region was more farmer like. Who or what could have brought this Caucasus_Gedrosia component into the Balkans?

No one brought this component. It's not even a real ancestral component, just a composite of many things. It was created on the spot when the ANE-rich steppe people rushed into the Balkans and mixed with the EEF people there during the Copper Age. Exactly the same thing happened in the Caucasus and South Central Asia. In other words, it was a parallel process that affected many regions at about the same time.

But now, this so called Caucasus_Gedrosia cluster peaks in the Caucasus and South Central Asia because that's where people are more isolated and drifted, which is something that ADMIXTURE likes to latch onto.

To understand what I mean you first need to understand what these "blue" components are really made off. What if this blue component is simply ANE? And I don't even see any North Caucasian samples used. Why?

Explain that.

The blue component includes ANE, WHG and EEF. But the reason it works so well here is because it's in large part ANE, which is totally lacking in Oetzi and the Sardinians, and almost totally lacking in Basques.

By the way, where do you think the Adygei come from? Last time I looked it was the North Caucasus. They're also mostly blue in this ADMIXTURE run, and that's because of their high ANE.
 
Why only from the North? Modern Bulgarians have a good chunk of ANE in form of Caucasus_Gedrosia. I assume this extra H&G admixture came through the Indo Europeans who were more Caucasus_Gedrosia+North European admixed than the farmers. This is the only explanation why modern Bulgarians have a good chunk of Caucasus_Gedrosia.
Yes, I'm not excluding gene flow from Caucasus over the centuries. Balkans have some 15-20% West Asian/Caucasus component. Is it because of the Indo-Europeans or just because of proximity, I'm not sure. Sometimes the biggest migrations are not even documented, because they were not part of a war. I think the small portion of ANE that Bulgarians have more than Greeks or Albanians, is probably slavic in origin, coming from North-East Europe in the middle ages.
I say a migration from the North because of various clues.. We have Neolithic "Sardinian" Oetzi in the Alps and then in the Iron Age we have Celts in the Area. Someone might say that it is a long time between Oetzi and the Celts...Well, it is not a long time because of this new paper...they found other "Sardinians" in the Iron Age Balkans... So where did the Celts come from? Due to many genetical and linguistic reasons, the best bet is from the North. Same with Illyrians in the Balkans, who were first identified before the Celts, some-time in the late Bronze Age. Greek mythology considers Celts, Illyrians and Gauls as brothers, but excavations show that Illyrians were similar but discontinuous in culture with Celts and Gauls, which might be because they were the first wave of migrations into the Balkans, centuries before the Celts existed. And then linguistically, we have the unexplainable large number of common word roots between Albanian and Old Germanic languages.
Another option all-together is that the Indo-Europeans split their migrations into Europe in the Bronze Age. One branch went into the Balkans to form Illyrians and Thracians, the other branch went to North-Europe and descended as Celts in the Iron Age.
I don't have enough information to decide which of the two options is the truth, but I'm leaning more towards the first option.
 
Nothing new here. People in the Balkans were Indo-Europized by Slavic people from the Easter Europe. Most folks in the Balkans speak a South Slavic language. Slavic dialect evolved in Eastern Europe. These Thracian are not PROTO-Indo-Europeans or whatever. Ancient Indo-European Greeks and many other Indo-European Iranic tribes in West Asia predate them by many centuries. Maybe even millennia! But what I do consider very interesting is that native aboriginal folks in inland of Europe were Indo-Europized much much later than I thought by folks from Kurdistan. Kurgans in West Asia are much older than Kurgans in Europe. The first stage of Indo-Europization of Europe took place when Yamna folks got Indo-Europized by folks from West Asia. The second stage was when already Indo-Europized folks in the Steppes migrated deeper into Europe and according to this paper it was VERY late! It has been proven by the TRUE scientists that R1a and R1b are from West Asia!
 
Much of their EEF is non early European farmer middle eastern ancestry. Not all Europeans have the same middle eastern ancestors. In admixtures Italians and Balkeners always score significant numbers in southwest Asian and west Asian specific components, which were close to none existent in early European farmers. The fact that Ashkenazi Jews(who have alot of recent south-west Asian ancestry) scored 90% EEF, is great evidence early European farmers descended mainly from the same ancient middle eastern source as do modern middle easterns, just both have some non-middle eastern ancestry.

How is this relevant? The point was that modern Bulgarians are not as "Oetzi like" or "Sardinian like" (although I would have preferred some direct comparisons of modern Bulgarians to Oetzi, Sardinians and the two Thracian samples) as some of their ancestors from the Iron Age, although they haven't changed a whole heck of a lot, since they're still 71% EEF.

You also persist in dragging in "components" from the old calculators which are no longer relevant. If you must discuss them, however, the S.W. Asian "component" has been in Europe, specifically in Italy, since the Neolithic, since Oetzi scored a percentage of it very similar to what it is currently in the north and in Tuscany. He also scored a high "Caucasus" number. "Caucasus" plus "Gedrosian" which arrived later, gives you your "West Asian" component.

And yes, most of their EEF is indeed from the neolithic farmers. You have proof somewhere in history or archaeology to the contrary, i.e. that hordes of people from the Levant moved to the Balkans post Bronze Age? Genetic evidence for that proposition certainly doesn't exist. That isn't to say there couldn't have been some more minor additions of course, perhaps with Byzantines etc., but there are no large, folk migrations of which I'm aware. Perhaps some people more expert in the history of the Balkans could chime in here if I am incorrect.

Finally, if you are talking about Italy, I'm afraid you are sadly misinformed. Please be aware that the genetic distance between northern Italy and southern Italy/Sicily is as great as between vastly geographically separated other nations in Europe, so, large generalizations about "Italians" are bound to be inaccurate.

To continue, any additional EEF in Italy post the Neolithic came by way of Greek and Balkan immigration starting in the Bronze Age. The only possible exception would be if it is proved that the Etruscans came from western Anatolia/the Aegean area. Even in that case, that would have been, in my opinion, an elite, male dominated migration. The mtDNA of the Etruscans looks very old indeed.
 
Sure Otzi scores in it but much much much much less than modern Italians and Balkaners do. The southwest Asians that brought farming to Europe 9,000 years ago, had no ANE or African ancestry, unlike modern southwest Asians. Plus, the subclades early European farmers had in middle eastern haplogroups like H and J, have been separated from the subclades modern southwest asians mainly have for well over 10,000 years, so even their middle eastern ancestry is distant. Italians and Balkaners have POST-NEOLITHIC modern southwest Asian-like ancestry, and P192.1 is evidence it was already in Bulgaria by 2,800-2,500 years ago.

Solely based on that K=8 admixture than SW Asian was also decent in Gök4 (Sweden TRB 5000BP); As it was also in Stuttgart (LBK 7000BP) in the K=20 of Lazaridis 2013 and after which EEF is modeled; So its obviously older in Europe than post-Neolithic/Iron-age (P192-1) i.e. Neolithic;

What this K=8 actually shows is that the Neolithic (farmer/herders) in the Alps remained very isolated and archaic judging by the Ötzi K=8 (in contrast to the others); Ötzi was also always closer to Stuttgart (PCAs Lazaridis) despite ~1500 years afterwards; Gök4 is in this study closest to North Italians (study: Italians) and Tuscans and less Sardinians; As also in a Lazaridis PCA;

''Within the F group, gok4 has a slightly lower proportion of the Sardinian cluster than the Iceman, and most closely resembles the Tuscans and Northern Italians, in agreement with the results of Skoglund et al.''

I most def. consider Thracian K8 as a good example of an Iron-age Indo-European (Balkans) but something Polako pointed out (and mentioned in the study) about the contamination should not be completely ignored; The Blue admixture component is termed as Russian ancestry (whatever that means);

''While P192-1 still shows the highest proportion of Sardinian ancestry, K8 more resembles the HG individuals, with a high fraction of Russian ancestry''

So Thracian P192-1 has still good proportion of Sardinian ancestry in contrast to Thracian K8 (which has less) but obviously that does not mean that P192-1 was Sardinian or Ötzi-like just still more Ötzi-like/Sardinian than K8 (as also PCA FigureS2); My prediction months ago (in other thread about the first study that included Danish M4) was that P192-1 is still more of the remnant subjugated Neolithic pop. and K8 more of the emerging Indo-European pop. (being elite/nobility of Iron-age);
 
Sure Otzi scores in it but much much much much less than modern Italians and Balkaners do. The southwest Asians that brought farming to Europe 9,000 years ago, had no ANE or African ancestry, unlike modern southwest Asians. Plus, the subclades early European farmers had in middle eastern haplogroups like H and J, have been separated from the subclades modern southwest asians mainly have for well over 10,000 years, so even their middle eastern ancestry is distant. Italians and Balkaners have POST-NEOLITHIC modern southwest Asian-like ancestry, and P192.1 is evidence it was already in Bulgaria by 2,800-2,500 years ago.

It's always a good idea to get your facts straight before you post. It's also a good idea never to take the statements of anyone else too much to heart unless one has analyzed the data for oneself.

As you insist on bringing the calculators into the discussion...these are the Dodecad K-12b numbers for SWAsian. Oetzi actually scores more S.W. Asian (and Gok 4 even more) than people in the Balkans and everywhere in Italy except the far south and Sicily. So, your statement is totally incorrect. In addition, as I said before, you know very little about the Italian genetic landscape so your generalizations are always off the mark.
Oetzi-7.6
Gok 4-8.6

N.Italian-5.6/5.8
Bulgarian-5.7
Sardinian-5.8
TSI-7.3
Greek-10.7
Sicilian-11.9
 
Epic hilarious/funny. Kargopol not a good sample for PIE ? Whaaaat 40% prime R1a territory and low ANE what's up?

(Arkhangelsk region)IE (Slavic, East)114 R1b-14.0%[60]114R1a-40.0%[60]114 I-5.3% [60]1140.0[60]1140.0[60]1140.9[60]1141.3[60]114 N-39.3% [60]114114

Let me guess the 14% R1b from the Levant is the bringing the ANE score down; just not enough to discard it as a reference population :LOL:

Europe_Y-DNA_map_668x600.jpg


ZSBZyYJ.png
 
No, they're not, for a number of reasons, including relatively low ANE (I think PIE had much higher ANE than any modern Euros) and fairly high Siberian admix, at around 5%, which I suspect is higher than what PIE had.

But that's not really important. They do the job in this study, in spite of the fact that the ADMIXTURE analysis isn't all that great, although better than the crappy PCA.



There's no reason to assume that a Balkan individual from the Iron Age would still be genetically indistinguishable from the Proto-Indo-Europeans, who lived during the dawn of the Copper Age near the Volga somewhere, even if this individual was from some direct royal line originating among those Proto-Indo-Europeans.

There's no reason to assume that a conquering military elite couldn't have maintained its position for centuries. Other than the fact that you, and a lot of other people, are assuming that the IE folk were high in ANE. And that looks like a reasonable assumption, but suppose it's wrong? Until we have evidence from actual IE remains from the steppes, I don't think we can completely dismiss the possibility that the IE folk may have had a genetic signature similar to this high status individual who was buried in a kurgan-like tomb long after the IE folk migrated into the Balkans.
 
Nothing new here. People in the Balkans were Indo-Europized by Slavic people from the Easter Europe. Most folks in the Balkans speak a South Slavic language. Slavic dialect evolved in Eastern Europe. These Thracian are not PROTO-Indo-Europeans or whatever. Ancient Indo-European Greeks and many other Indo-European Iranic tribes in West Asia predate them by many centuries. Maybe even millennia! But what I do consider very interesting is that native aboriginal folks in inland of Europe were Indo-Europized much much later than I thought by folks from Kurdistan. Kurgans in West Asia are much older than Kurgans in Europe. The first stage of Indo-Europization of Europe took place when Yamna folks got Indo-Europized by folks from West Asia. The second stage was when already Indo-Europized folks in the Steppes migrated deeper into Europe and according to this paper it was VERY late! It has been proven by the TRUE scientists that R1a and R1b are from West Asia!

Nope. The Slavs didn't arrive in the Balkans for centuries after the lifetimes of these two individuals. Whoever the high status individual was, he wasn't a Slav. The method by which he was buried suggests that he was a descendent of IE folk, but we don't know to what extent he did or didn't have other admixture.
 
Nope. The Slavs didn't arrive in the Balkans for centuries after the lifetimes of these two individuals. Whoever the high status individual was, he wasn't a Slav. The method by which he was buried suggests that he was a descendent of IE folk, but we don't know to what extent he did or didn't have other admixture.
I think Thracian were related with proto-Slavs through hg. I2a. But Northern Slavs are more (Mongoloid?) N1c1 while Southern Slavs are more I2a.
 
Proto Slavic speaking Indo-Europized foragers didn't stay at the same place. They always wandered between the Balkans and the Slavic lands. Thracians were heavily influenced by those Proto Slavic Indo-Europized foragers
 
How is this relevant? The point was that modern Bulgarians are not as "Oetzi like" or "Sardinian like" (although I would have preferred some direct comparisons of modern Bulgarians to Oetzi, Sardinians and the two Thracian samples) as some of their ancestors from the Iron Age, although they haven't changed a whole heck of a lot, since they're still 71% EEF.

Your taking EEF percentages from Laz to literally. First of all Stuttgart had some WHG ancestry, my guess is ~20% because when computed into EEF, WHG, ANE results from Laz it is in line with Davidski's estimates of hunter ancestry in modern Europeans using Bedouin as a middle eastern source. Second of all, Laz found that Stuttgart's non WHG aka near eastern ancestors were closely related to modern middle easterns. This is why Askenazi Jews who have a high amount of recent middle eastern ancestry score 90% EEF.

The admixtures show that P192.1 is most similar to Tuscans, in line with Iron age Thracians being the ancestors of modern Bulgarians who score very similar results as Tuscans in admixtures. Therefore Iron age Thracians were probably not more EEF than modern Bulgarians.

Why do you keep ignoring Italians and Balkaners post Neolithic southwest Asian ancestry? It is obvious even when looking at Y DNA and mtDNA, they always have a high amount of typical southwest Asian haplogroups rarely found in the rest of Europe. Just because Otzi score 5% in a southwest Asian component, doesn't mean modern Italians 20-25% was all there in the Neolithic.

No matter what method you use post Neolithic southwest Asian ancestry in Italians and Balkaners is obvious, and can be mistakened for European farmer ancestry when not looked at thoroughly. Their overall admixture is very similar to European Jews.

You also persist in dragging in "components" from the old calculators which are no longer relevant. If you must discuss them, however, the S.W. Asian "component" has been in Europe, specifically in Italy, since the Neolithic, since Oetzi scored a percentage of it very similar to what it is currently in the north and in Tuscany. He also scored a high "Caucasus" number. "Caucasus" plus "Gedrosian" which arrived later, gives you your "West Asian" component.

Old calculators? How can you determine if they are now useless? They are not, and are constant with results of differnt tests. Components in admixtures don't represent real populations. They take a bunch of populations SNPs and force them into a certain number of components. Gedorsia and Caucasus are simply an admixture of middle eastern, ANE, and for Gedorsia south Asian(mixture of it's own)-specific alleles. Gedorsia scores in Europe may not be because of recent ancestry from west Asia, just similar mixtures.

Otzi is not evidence of genetic continuum in northern Italy, your twisting his results to fit your arguments.

And yes, most of their EEF is indeed from the neolithic farmers. You have proof somewhere in history or archaeology to the contrary, i.e. that hordes of people from the Levant moved to the Balkans post Bronze Age? Genetic evidence for that proposition certainly doesn't exist. That isn't to say there couldn't have been some more minor additions of course, perhaps with Byzantines etc., but there are no large, folk migrations of which I'm aware. Perhaps some people more expert in the history of the Balkans could chime in here if I am incorrect.

P192.1 is already prove that southwest Asian-like ancestry was in the Balkans during the early Iron age. He scored around around as high as Tuscans do, which is much higher than early European farmers do. I don't care if there is no archaeological evidence of a mass migration from the Levant, DNA as shown there is common southwest Asian admixture in the Balkans and Italy(highest in the south), and it has been in the Balkans since the early Iron age. It happened, and eventually all the dots will connect.

Finally, if you are talking about Italy, I'm afraid you are sadly misinformed. Please be aware that the genetic distance between northern Italy and southern Italy/Sicily is as great as between vastly geographically separated other nations in Europe, so, large generalizations about "Italians" are bound to be inaccurate.

To continue, any additional EEF in Italy post the Neolithic came by way of Greek and Balkan immigration starting in the Bronze Age. The only possible exception would be if it is proved that the Etruscans came from western Anatolia/the Aegean area. Even in that case, that would have been, in my opinion, an elite, male dominated migration. The mtDNA of the Etruscans looks very old indeed.

North Italian are more similar to Sicilians, than they are to Austrians. There is a high amount of common ancestry throughout Italy. The difference between north and south are differences in southwest Asian ancestry which is higher the more south you go. Like i said before similar southwest Asians migrated to Italy and the Balkans, and probably went through the Mediterranean sea because it's highest in the south, eventually archaeological and historical evidence will pop up, because it did happen.
 
There's no reason to assume that a conquering military elite couldn't have maintained its position for centuries. Other than the fact that you, and a lot of other people, are assuming that the IE folk were high in ANE. And that looks like a reasonable assumption, but suppose it's wrong? Until we have evidence from actual IE remains from the steppes, I don't think we can completely dismiss the possibility that the IE folk may have had a genetic signature similar to this high status individual who was buried in a kurgan-like tomb long after the IE folk migrated into the Balkans.
I still don't understand what ENA has to do with proto-Indo-Europeans. Although ENA could be part of the much later Indo-Europeanized folks outside Europe. Let assume that ENA was part of Eurasian of later Indo-Europeans. But, who's saying that they were proto? It's still possible that they firstly were Indo-Europized by proto-Indo Europeans before they migrated into Europe. With other words those proto-Indo-Europeans who arguably Indo-Europized foragers in the Eurasian steppes could have little to no ENA at all.
 
I don't like any speculations, just stick to the facts. Just follow the migrations waves of Y-DNA! Stay close to science! This is how intellectualism/higher education works
 
@ Firehaired

EEF is the Genetic continuum as are ANE and WHG (sequenced from the ancient corpses) and Ashkenazi, Sicilian and Maltese were considered invalid (by Lazaridis) due to recent additional Near East ancestry;

And where exactly do you suppose did the "post-Neolithic" Thracian get their SW Asian admixture from? If not from the Neolithic people themselves (who possessed it Stuttgart/Ötzi/Gök4); So your fictitious post-Neolithic SW Asian migration is not the prime source for SW Asian in any European pop. As for the continuum the bootstrap between Ötzi and Sradinians is >96% and Italians (North/Tuscans) have the highest amount of Sardinian ancestry (K=8) and are closest to Gök4 due to the additional proportion of Russian ancestry in both;
 

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