Origin & Spread of I, I1, I2, and further downstream Subclades.

[bicicleur 2]

I am posting this thread as a singular point for people to discuss their theories as to the origin & spread of Y DNA Haplogroup I, I1, I2, and further downstream subclades. I will refrain from posting my ideas in this post and rather just post some general questions that need to be answered and addressed in any theory (my ideas will be posted after). There is a lot of good scientific data that can be used as reference material here and I hope that it is used in every theory.

1. Where/When did IJ originate?

2. Where/When did I originate?

3. When did I reach Europe and where was the original settlement?

4.Where/When did Proto-I1 diverge from I2

5.Where was the geographical location of I1 during the bottleneck and when did it end?

6.Where/When did I2 originate?

7.Where/When did I2a/b/c originate?

8.Where/When did I2a1 and I2a2 originate?

9.Where/When I2a1a(M26), I2a1b(M423), and other I2a1 subclades originate (I2a1c/d/e)?

10. Explain the modern day distributions of I Subclades

a guess :

IJK is the origin of Aurignacian, 45000 years ago
I is the origing of Gravettian, entering Europe via Balkans, 32000 years ago
I1 Ahrensburg culture, tundra hunters 15500 year ago, dissapeared 10000 years ago but some survived as Hensa-Fonsbecka fishermen , survived in the Norvegian fjords till 4500 years ago
I2b/c Italy/Adriatic Sea till 17000 years ago, expanding into the Hungarian plain.
I2a1a Peleponesos, Greece 20000 years ago, fishing in the Mediterranean Sea, along with G2a 10000 years ago, Sardegna 8000 years ago, farmer in the Rhone valley 7500 years ago, farmers going furhter north
I2a1a is CTS595, L1294 is derived from CTS595
I2a1b Southern France Magdalenian 12000 years ago, through Central Europe and Northern Europe till Danube Delta and western Pontic Steppe 9000 years ago
I2a2b followed the same trail as I2a1b, a little bit later
some I2a1b/I2a2b came back west from the Erzgebirge/Carpaths/Pontic steppe with Indo-Europeans
I2a2a Doggerland 10000 years ago, Doggerland drowned 8000 years ago, M284 arrived west in England, the others descend from Swifterbant/Ertebölle culture

 

[FrankN]

After aDNA results from Motala and Loschbour, there are now four I2a-P37.2 branches with common SNPs older than I2a-CTS5966 and at the same time specific for different parts of Western Europe. Only that fifth and the youngest is specific for Eastern Europe.

The older four are:
I2a-M26
I2a-L178* (Mesolithic aDNA)
I2a-L161 (Isles)
I2a-Disles (I'm not aware of defining SNP)

I mean... does anyone think this is important when considering place of origin for I2a-P37.2?

Not really as concerns place of origin, since I am pretty certain Motala wasn't inhabited during the LGM, and it is more or less at equal distance to all places that are listed as possible European LGM refuges.

However, since I am not that deeply acquainted with all sub-clade data, could somebody maybe comment whether these finds are consistent with the assumed TMRAs that have been circulating so far?
Concerning the secondary frequency peaks of I2a1 and I2a2 around Bessarabia (and a look at the I1 map also suggests some local I1 peak there), I would also be grateful for somebody commenting on the respective sub-clades found there, and their possible age. Thanks n advance!

 

[oriental]

Has anyone got better data about sea level change? All I get from here is that during last 8000 years the sea level changed ~5m, which would not be that much of an impact on the Adriatic coast.

It maybe that 1 or 2 million years ago the North American continent joined with South American continent thus forcing water to circulate around the Gulf of Mexico. The world ocean currents that circulated around the Equator was gradually stopped. Of course all of this was VERY gradual as continents drift 2 or 3 inches a year. So after maybe after 3/4 of a million years the Gulf Stream as we know it went up the Atlantic Ocean and Arctic Ocean. It seems to have taken 20,00 years to bring the sea level 300 feet.

Likewise, the Pacific Ocean currents also were blocked and began circulating from the equator up along East Asia to the Arctic Ocean then down Alaska along west coast of USA to the equator. These two diversions would have begun melting the ice sheets of the Arctic Ocean.

 

[motzart]

1. Where/When did IJ originate?

In the Fertile Crescent, migrated to Europe during the Gravettian

2. Where/When did I originate?

Somewhere in Europe during the Gravettian or post-Gravettian paleolithic cultures of Europe

3. When did I reach Europe and where was the original settlement?

North from the Caucuses and then West into Europe, the original settlement is our first Gravettian find in the Crimean mountains

4.Where/When did Proto-I1 diverge from I2

I believe that I1 originated with the (Proto)Fosna-Hensbacka culture, I1 was a branch of I that migrated into Scandinavia from Finland while the rest of the group stayed continential.

5.Where was the geographical location of I1 during the bottleneck and when did it end?

Finland/Norway , ended in when the group Migrated to Southern Scandinavia with Fosna-Hensbacka and later Mesolithic Scandinavian Cultures

6.Where/When did I2 originate?

Soultrean or Magdalenian, maybe even Gravettian

7.Where/When did I2a/b/c originate?
Soultrean/Magdalenian

8.Where/When did I2a1 and I2a2 originate?

I2a1 and I2a2 originated with the Hamburg/Ahrensburg cultures

9.Where/When I2a1a(M26), I2a1b(M423), and other I2a1 subclades originate (I2a1c/d/e)?

I2a1a in Central Germany spreading slightly outward into Western Europe, I2a1b in Northeastern Germany/Southern Scandinavia, I2a1d & e in Northern France, isolated after Doggerland flooding, I2a1c isolated in Britain after Doggerland flooding. All would be in Northern Coastal/river areas as they were hunter/fishers.

10. Explain the modern day distributions of I Subclades

Very little spread with LBK/Beaker cultures. None with Corded Ware or Celtic cultures.
Mixture of the Indigenous I language with subsequent Corded Ware and Celtic cultures begins the Germanic or Proto Germanic Lanugae in accordance with the Germanic Substrate Hypothesis.
Current distributions represent historical invasions of Germanic Tribes and Viking Invasions. No Paleolithic continuity outside of Northern Europe.

 

[mul]

More on the L161 line
http://archive.today/yLf4T

 

[jdanel]

A longer contemplation of L-161

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/haplogroupi.shtml

• I2a1b2 (L161.1) has several sub-groups detected from haplotypes by Ken Nordtvedt:
  • B has the earliest TMRCA at 3,370 BC and possibly arose in Germany. It also appears in Poland. So its ancestor may have been among farmers carrying dairy farming from the Danube Basin - the Lengyel Culture (5000–4000 BC). From there it spread into Britain and Ireland, where it appears at low frequency. It therefore need not have arrived in the British Isles with a major migration, but could be the legacy of individual traders and travellers at any time. However post-Neolithic migrations into the British Isles from the Rhineland include those of Celts, Belgae and Anglo-Saxons.
  • A branches from B. It appears in the British Isles with a TMRCA of c. 500 AD, meaning that it represents the descendants of a single man living at that time, who could have been an Anglo-Saxon, or descended from an earlier arrival.
  • C and D appear in the British Isles. They have a common ancestor who branched off the main L161 line c. 4000 BC, according to the calculations of Ken Nordtvedt. Thus their ancestor could have entered the British Isles with the earliest farmers to arrive there c. 4000 BC, who sprang partly from the Rössen Culture, linked to Lengyel.

This link is to a longer contemplation of L-161 that I wrote about 10 years ago.

http://archive.is/yLf4T

I know some of the concepts have been superceded, so I would appreciate anyone pointing out needed corrections.

 

[RobertColumbia]

...

10. Explain the modern day distributions of I Subclades

Very little spread with LBK/Beaker cultures. None with Corded Ware or Celtic cultures.
Mixture of the Indigenous I language with subsequent Corded Ware and Celtic cultures begins the Germanic or Proto Germanic Lanugae in accordance with the Germanic Substrate Hypothesis.
Current distributions represent historical invasions of Germanic Tribes and Viking Invasions. No Paleolithic continuity outside of Northern Europe.

I continue to favor the Germanic Substrate Hypothesis as the best explanation for the distribution of at least a significant percentage of I1, if not more. The Germanic Substrate Hypothesis, which was proposed years before there was any knowledge of I1, R1b, or any other haplogroup for that matter, says that the proto-Germanic language was a creole - that is, a language that came about due to contact between a Centum-speaking population and either a Satem-speaking population or a non-Indo-European speaking population. Our Centum speaking population in this case is the R1b-dominated Proto-Celtic or Proto-Italo-Celtic population, our Satem-speaking population is the R1a-dominated Proto-Balto-Slavic population, and our non-Indo-European-speaking population is represented by populations dominated by I1. When we look at the haplogroup distribution maps, we see a strong presence of I1 (and to a lesser extent R1a) in areas that speak Germanic languages (e.g. England, Germany, Netherlands, Sweden, Iceland, etc.), and less I1 in areas that speak other languages.

 

[Ukko]

I continue to favor the Germanic Substrate Hypothesis as the best explanation for the distribution of at least a significant percentage of I1, if not more. The Germanic Substrate Hypothesis, which was proposed years before there was any knowledge of I1, R1b, or any other haplogroup for that matter, says that the proto-Germanic language was a creole - that is, a language that came about due to contact between a Centum-speaking population and either a Satem-speaking population or a non-Indo-European speaking population. Our Centum speaking population in this case is the R1b-dominated Proto-Celtic or Proto-Italo-Celtic population, our Satem-speaking population is the R1a-dominated Proto-Balto-Slavic population, and our non-Indo-European-speaking population is represented by populations dominated by I1. When we look at the haplogroup distribution maps, we see a strong presence of I1 (and to a lesser extent R1a) in areas that speak Germanic languages (e.g. England, Germany, Netherlands, Sweden, Iceland, etc.), and less I1 in areas that speak other languages.

I1 and N1c are connected.