DNA from the Bronze Age Altai reveals signs of ancient admixture

the most interesting thing of this paper is that almost everybody from the Bronze Age had brown eyes and dark hair. Only 1 fella is tested with blue eyes. So assumption that all Indo-European R1a tribes in Central Asia were blue eyed blonde people is nonsense and can be put in the garbage. Most likely the so called 'Aryans' (Iranic people) that migrated into Northern-India looked like modern-day Kurds and NorthWestern Iranians. I mean Caucasus-Gedrosia kind of people! People of different colors and shapes, some of them were light, some of them were dark, like we see in Kurdistan and Persia.
 
the most interesting thing of this paper is that almost everybody from the Bronze Age had brown eyes and dark hair. Only 1 fella is tested with blue eyes. So assumption that all Indo-European R1a tribes in Central Asia were blue eyed blonde people is nonsense and can be put in the garbage. Most likely the so called 'Aryans' (Iranic people) that migrated into Northern-India looked like modern-day Kurds and NorthWestern Iranians. I mean Caucasus-Gedrosia kind of people! People of different colors and shapes, some of them were light, some of them were dark, like we see in Kurdistan and Persia.

IMO, if a group of blond haired blue eyed people intermarried with a group of dark haired dark eyed people, I would expect only a small percentage of their offspring to have blue eyes, since it's a recessive trait. However, R1a doesn't need to be exclusively blond haired and blue eyed in order to have been spread to the Altaic region or to what is now Iran during a Bronze Age expansion from the steppes.

If you want to argue definitively that R1a already was (or wasn't) in the area that is now Iran at the time of the Bronze Age expansion, you need a number of samples of Bronze Age DNA from the area that is now Iran, and we don't have that yet. However, these samples seem to me to indicate that there was a degree of fairly recent mixing of R1a with more "Asian" lineages during the Bronze Age, which I would say does support the idea of R1a being central to the Bronze Age expansion.
 
IMO, if a group of blond haired blue eyed people intermarried with a group of dark haired dark eyed people, I would expect only a small percentage of their offspring to have blue eyes, since it's a recessive trait. However, R1a doesn't need to be exclusively blond haired and blue eyed in order to have been spread to the Altaic region or to what is now Iran during a Bronze Age expansion from the steppes.

If you want to argue definitely that R1a already was (or wasn't) in the area that is now Iran at the time of the Bronze Age expansion, you need a number of samples of Bronze Age DNA from the area that is now Iran, and we don't have that yet. However, these samples seem to me to indicate that there was a degree of fairly recent mixing of R1a with more "Asian" lineages during the Bronze Age, which I would say does support the idea of R1a being central to the Bronze Age expansion.
The thing is that the so called ‘Aryans’ that invaded India, lived for a long time in Central Asia before they invaded India. So Aryans who Invaded India have to be 'Central Asian' people, they were already partly 'Central Asian' who mixed with the natives of Central Asia at that time. And now we know that those Central Asian people were mostly brown eyes, dark hair!

And IMO that's impossible. Why? Because ancient R* they found in Central Asia was also dark too. That's why I do believe that its descendant R1* was dark too.

Also R1a in Iran can't be from the Steppes, because some subclades of R1a in NorthWest Persia and Kurdistan are MUCH older than subclaces in the Steppes (Black Sea/Kazakhstan).

The ancient Medes & Persians called themselves 'Aryans'. The Medes & Persians looked exactly like modern day Iranic people in Kurdistan and NorthWest Persia.

Also at the time of the Bronze age it has been proven that there was a migration from Western Asia into the Steppes and NOT vice versa. Maykop, Layla Tepe etc. folks invaded and influenced Yamna Horizon.
 
So assumption that all Indo-European R1a tribes in Central Asia were blue eyed blonde people is nonsense and can be put in the garbage. Most likely the so called 'Aryans' (Iranic people) that migrated into Northern-India looked like modern-day Kurds and NorthWestern Iranians. I mean Caucasus-Gedrosia kind of people! People of different colors and shapes, some of them were light, some of them were dark, like we see in Kurdistan and Persia.

Doubtful;
These Bronze-age (1300-900BC) Altai corpses are not the folks that earlier expanded into the Indus-valley; The Indo-Aryans that expanded (Shortughai) into the Indus-valley were from the Andronovo[Fedorovo] complexes; So you would have to judge based on such corpses and not based on intermixed Altai corpses;
 
Doubtful;
These Bronze-age (1300-900BC) Altai corpses are not the folks that earlier expanded into the Indus-valley; The Indo-Aryans that expanded (Shortughai) into the Indus-valley were from the Andronovo[Fedorovo] complexes; So you would have to judge based on such corpses and not based on intermixed Altai corpses;
Wrong! People of Andronovo (Fedorovo) were also for a huge part Tungusic/Mongoloid peoples. And it is still uncertain if Andronovo (Fedorovo) were Indo-Iranian speakers. Original Indo-Iranian people of Central Asia that invaded India migrated firstly into BMAC (Oxus civilization) from Kurdistan/NorthWestern Persia before they migrated into Northern India. So called 'Aryans' who invaded India came from BMAC and NOT from Fedorovo complex at all.
 
However, these samples seem to me to indicate that there was a degree of fairly recent mixing of R1a with more "Asian" lineages during the Bronze Age, which I would say does support the idea of R1a being central to the Bronze Age expansion.
I have come to a similar conclusion. Which leaves open the question how did R1b get to Europe if it wasn't the IE Bronze Age migrations? Maybe something that has to do with Basques and Caucasian languages...
 
I have come to a similar conclusion. Which leaves open the question how did R1b get to Europe if it wasn't the IE Bronze Age migrations? Maybe something that has to do with Basques and Caucasian languages...

That's a question that will lead to arguments on this forum. Some of us think that R1b may have been introduced to Europe by the Beaker Bell folk, who some of us think entered via the Mediterranean and others think came by way of the Balkans. However, in terms of this forum, we're heretics. The majority opinion here is that R1b formed the western part of the original IE population and entered Europe as part of the Bronze Age expansion, perhaps along with R1a folk.

If you look through some old threads, you can find lots of discussions about this topic. And if you look at the Genetics section of this website, Maciamo has done an excellent job of summarizing the arguments re R1b as being part of the IE folk.
 
This means that Z93 is NOT from Central Asia. And Z93 can't be from Eastern Europe either, because Eastern Europe has different VERY recent types of R1a and NOT ancestral to Z93 at all ! Also in Eastern Europe there are different Y-DNA haplogroups, like Mongoloid N1c1 and Europoid I2a. There's almost no I2a in Central Asia!!! Original R1a* is from West Asia, ancestral to European R1a and Central Asian R1a. Z93 in Central Asia is from the Iranian Plateau, maybe even from the Zagros Mountains. There was a migration from West Asia into Central Asia.
http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2014/05/near-eastern-roots-of-south-asian.html

This is not a white raciest idea, and no one is attacking west Asians. Proto-Indo Iranian language and R1a Z93 originated in eastern Europe, archaeology, ancient Indo Iranian's DNA, and other evidence is the prove. Don't take this to seriously, it was just one of many events that occurred during the bronze age.

Sure R1a itself or its subclade M17 may have originated in west Asia, but that doesn't mean Z93 is not from a European back migration.
 
Thanks for sharing.

No major surprise here. The samples date from the Late Bronze Age (c. 1350 BCE), which was an active period for the expansion of R1a-Z93 in Asia.

The European mtDNA haplogroups all match those that I have associated with the diffusion of R1a during the Bronze Age. C4a1 is interesting since we already had C4a2, C4a3 from Neolithic Ukraine and C4a6 from Bronze Age Ukraine. This would tend to confirm my theory that C4a was one of the original lineages brought from Siberia to eastern Europe by R1a tribes.

So do you think R1a originated in Siberia? I tend to think R1 originated somewhere in west Asia.
 
Wrong! People of Andronovo (Fedorovo) were also for a huge part Tungusic/Mongoloid peoples.
I never heard that. As far as I know only one sample of Fedorovo / Krasnojarsk had tested y-chromosome C what later became rejected a misinterpreted data.
 
According to this study there was NO expansions from the Eastern Europe into Central Asia!!! http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288 "R1a1a-M17 diversity declines toward the Pontic-Caspian steppe where the mid-Holocene R1a1a7-M458 sublineage is dominant [46]. R1a1a7-M458 was absent in Afghanistan, suggesting that R1a1a-M17 does not support, as previously thought [47], expansions from the Pontic Steppe [3], bringing the Indo-European languages to Central Asia and India."

You obviously don't realise this, but you come across as psychotic. Have you ever considered some sort of professional therapy?

Now, in regards to this and other recent studies, what we're obviously seeing here is a migration from Eastern Europe deep into Asia, which resulted in a mixed European/Siberian population in the Mongolian Altai and elsewhere. It's likely that this mixed population then pushed on into West Asia (including Kurdistan) and South Asia.

Note that in this study we have an mtDNA H1b haplotype with five hits in present-day Poland and one in Portugal. Also, there's one mtDNA U4, which is a haplogroup typical of Mesolithic Eastern and Central Europeans. The fact that one of the R1a-Z93 samples was probably blue eyed is very interesting indeed, considering the aforementioned mixed nature of this population.

Moreover, R1a-Z93 is closely related to the European-specific R1a-Z282, since they both share the Z645 mutation which is only around 4,500 years old. But basal R1a-Z93 lineages do exist in Europe, and these are difficult to cluster and unlikely to be the result of any sort of recent migrations from Asia to Europe.

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https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results
 
The ancient Medes & Persians called themselves 'Aryans'. The Medes & Persians looked exactly like modern day Iranic people in Kurdistan and NorthWest Persia.
I do not see any Aryan in present day kurds and Iranians. They are arabs
 
This is not a white raciest idea, and no one is attacking west Asians. Proto-Indo Iranian language and R1a Z93 originated in eastern Europe, archaeology, ancient Indo Iranian's DNA, and other evidence is the prove. Don't take this to seriously, it was just one of many events that occurred during the bronze age.

Sure R1a itself or its subclade M17 may have originated in west Asia, but that doesn't mean Z93 is not from a European back migration.
What archaeology? Real archaeology of proto-Indo-Iranians is located in BMAC. I hope you do realise that!
 
You obviously don't realise this, but you come across as psychotic. Have you ever considered some sort of professional therapy?

Now, in regards to this and other recent studies, what we're obviously seeing here is a migration from Eastern Europe deep into Asia, which resulted in a mixed European/Siberian population in the Mongolian Altai and elsewhere. It's likely that this mixed population then pushed on into West Asia (including Kurdistan) and South Asia.

Note that in this study we have an mtDNA H1b haplotype with five hits in present-day Poland and one in Portugal. Also, there's one mtDNA U4, which is a haplogroup typical of Mesolithic Eastern and Central Europeans. The fact that one of the R1a-Z93 samples was probably blue eyed is very interesting indeed, considering the aforementioned mixed nature of this population.

Moreover, R1a-Z93 is closely related to the European-specific R1a-Z282, since they both share the Z645 mutation which is only around 4,500 years old. But basal R1a-Z93 lineages do exist in Europe, and these are difficult to cluster and unlikely to be the result of any sort of recent migrations from Asia to Europe.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results
You don’t only sound psychotic, but also very ignorant and in denial! There came out recently 2 academic papers that are indicating that there was no migration of R1a from Western Steppes to Eastern steppes. And that R1a in Europe is from West Asia. And it's a bottlenecked. Why are you ignoring these papers? I know that these papers are a blow to your wannabe neo-Nazi Slavic face, but it's time to move on, come back to a reality and overcome your inferiority complex.

here are these 2 papers : here http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288 and here http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg201450a.html
 
You don’t only sound psychotic, but also very ignorant and in denial! There came out recently 2 academic papers that are indicating that there was no migration of R1a from Western Steppes to Eastern steppes. And that R1a in Europe is from West Asia. And it's a bottlenecked. Why are you ignoring these papers? I know that these papers are a blow to your wannabe neo-Nazi Slavic face, but it's time to move on, come back to a reality and overcome your inferiority complex.

here are these 2 papers : here http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288 and here http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg201450a.html

The first paper ignores the fact that M417 can be broken up into multiple subclades and that STR variance doesn't say anything useful about the geographic origins of haplogroups. In fact, it holds on to the ridiculous view of the time that M417 came from the Indus Valley.

The second paper ignores a lot of things, including the existence of L664 in Northwestern Europe. But it's important to note that nowhere do the authors claim that M417 and all downstream markers, like Z282 and Z93, expanded from West Asia during the early Indo-European timeframe. All they say is that R1a might have originated in West Asia 25,000 years ago.

So even if true, what does that have to do with the origins of the Indo-Europeans? And how do these results trump ancient DNA evidence of an European population with a high frequency of R1a living in South Siberia and the Altai during the early Indo-European timeframe? Or are you actually arguing with a straight face that these people with European H1b and U4, and some even with blue eyes and light hair, came from the Indus Valley or Kurdistan?

See, you're obviously psychotic, because no one who's bothered to understand these points can hold on to the view that you hold on to so desperately here. Please seek some help, for your own sake.
 
Guys chill a bit, at the end of the day none of you will be able to determine the exact place of R1a origin.
 
The second paper ignores a lot of things, including the existence of L664 in Northwestern Europe. But it's important to note that nowhere do the authors claim that M417 and all downstream markers, like Z282 and Z93, expanded from West Asia during the early Indo-European timeframe. All they say is that R1a might have originated in West Asia 25,000 years ago.

So even if true, what does that have to do with the origins of the Indo-Europeans? And how do these results trump ancient DNA evidence of an European population with a high frequency of R1a living in South Siberia and the Altai during the early Indo-European timeframe? Or are you actually arguing with a straight face that these people with European H1b and U4, and some even with blue eyes and light hair, came from the Indus Valley or Kurdistan?

See, you're obviously psychotic, because no one who's bothered to understand these points can hold on to the view that you hold on to so desperately here. Please seek some help, for your own sake.
First of all Z282 and Z93 are related to each other, but they’re NOT the same. Z93 had already very different mutations comparedto Z283 and Z282. Z93 already evolved very differently. eppes. Nobody is denying that Z282 evolved in the Western Steppes? But where is the proogf that also Z93 evovled in the Western Steppes. There's no proof for that. Z93 is NOT from Eastern Europe. There's no chronology (chronological relationship) between Z282 and Z83. They have the same roots, and I’m sure roots in West Asia. You're so ANTI-science, anti-intellectualism denying scientific papers. There is no academic proof for you wild fantasies, AT ALL.

People in South Siberia and the Altai during the early Indo-European already were mixed Europoid/Mongoloid people, like people in Eastern Europe were also mixed with Europoid (Y-DNA hg. I2* and I1*) and Mongoloid people. There's lots of N1c1 Y-DNA in Eastern Eruope. So called 'Aryans' that invaded India from BMAC were mixed people between Kurdistan/Northwest Iran and South Cental Asia. They were Caucaso-Gedrosian people! You like it or not.
 
See, you're obviously psychotic
You’re not really a very smart@$$ fella aren't you? What's your education? You can't proof me wrong, so you're insulting me, first sign of an inferiority complex! You come out of nowhere and insult me, WTF???
And now go and do something useful for your glorious Slavic (wannabe Aryan) race.
 
And now go and do something useful for your glorious Slavic (wannabe Aryan) race.

If he insults you, either report it or insult back to him, but don't mix an entire ethnicity, let alone ethno-linguistic group, into your war. (What the heck have Croats, Russians or even Poles to do with your dispute?). Wouldn't you be pi..ed off when someone insulted your ethnicity just because he has some dispute with some random guy who belongs to the same ancestry as you?
 

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