DNA from the Bronze Age Altai reveals signs of ancient admixture

[Goga]

If he insults you, either report it or insult back to him, but don't mix an entire ethnicity, let alone ethno-linguistic group, into your war. (What the heck have Croats, Russians or even Poles to do with your dispute?). Wouldn't you be pi..ed off when someone insulted your ethnicity just because he has some dispute with some random guy who belongs to the same ancestry as you?

I'm not insulting Slavic people in general. I've only something against his Polish-Slavonic @$$ as person. I'm tired of his RETARD nonsense, his efforts to steal someone’s else history, because he has no great history and therefore has an inferiority complex. Stealing other's people history is low and an insult to those people.

 

[Alan]

I'm not insulting Slavic people in general. I've only something against his Polish-Slavonic @$$ as person. I'm tired of his RETARD nonsense, his efforts to steal someone’s else history, because he has no great history and therefore has an inferiority complex.

So you are not insulting him as a polish-slavonic @$$ and when you say he has "no great history"? Wouldn't you feel insulted if he said the same about you as a KURDISH person? Insulting a people in general is a childish attitude I only see among wannabe ethnic Aryan racists. I saw him insult you first this is why I quite frankly understood your anger when you directed your anger against him. But now you have lost it a bit in anger like a Vulcano and start to throw with insults against ethnic groups.

I have met so many Polish people but yet beside a few they all were nice people. Our co worker is Polish, the (for long now) Girlfriend of my brother is Polish. Isn't it somehow also insulting to her if you put in the "ethnic card"?

Beside as I said Goga, if you are right the future testings will show it. I am on your side with the Idea that R1a* and that either Proto Indo Europeanes or Proto_Proto Indo Europeans evolved somewhere between West and South_Central Asia.

 

[Goga]

So you are not insulting him as a POLISH-SLAVONIC @$$ and when you say he has "no great history"? Wouldn't you feel insulted if he said the same about you as a KURDISH person? Insulting a people in general is a childish attitude I only see among wannabe ethnic Aryan racists. I saw him insult you first this is why I quite frankly understood your anger first when you directed your anger against him. But now you have lost it a bit in anger like a Vulcano and start to throw with insults against ethnic groups.

I never insulted Slavic people. I don’t care how they eat, talk, breath, do look like and how they smell. And it's a fact that they don’t have a great history, compared to the Greeks (ancient Athens), Italians (the Roman Empire), Kurds (Aryan Median Empire) etc. I'm not interested in those people and their history and their life.
And people should know where such kind of retard nonsense is from and what kind of people are spreading this nonsense. These people are giving their own people a bad name, not me!

 

[polako]

Guys chill a bit, at the end of the day none of you will be able to determine the exact place of R1a origin.

But we can determine that there was a population movement from Europe to Asia during the Bronze Age, and judging by this latest study these people carried R1a-Z93.

It's very annoying when a discussion about this interesting topic is drowned out by the hysterical ramblings of a person who doesn't want to comprehend a few basic facts.

 

[Alan]

But we can determine that there was a population movement from Europe to Asia during the Bronze Age, and judging by this latest study these people carried R1a-Z93.It's very annoying when a discussion about this interesting topic is drowned out by the hysterical ramblings of a person who doesn't want to comprehend a few basic facts.

Iam currently not at Home but when i am back i will give a comment to it

 

[Goga]

But we can determine that there was a population movement from Europe to Asia during the Bronze Age, and judging by this latest study these people carried R1a-Z93.

It's very annoying when a discussion about this interesting topic is drowned out by the hysterical ramblings of a person who doesn't want to comprehend a few basic facts.

There is no movement of people determined from Western Steppes into BMAC. It's a well know FACT that so called 'Aryans' who invaded India came from BMAC (or Oxus civilization). Also R1a in Eastern Europe is Z282 or Z283. There's no such thing as a native European Z93. Z93 was NOT evolved in Europe and it is NOT European at all. Z282 and Z283 are NOT ancestral to Z93. They're cousins and that's all, but they are not the same. How is it possible that you don't understand such a simple detail? http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288

 

[Maciamo]

the most interesting thing of this paper is that almost everybody from the Bronze Age had brown eyes and dark hair. Only 1 fella is tested with blue eyes. So assumption that all Indo-European R1a tribes in Central Asia were blue eyed blonde people is nonsense and can be put in the garbage. Most likely the so called 'Aryans' (Iranic people) that migrated into Northern-India looked like modern-day Kurds and NorthWestern Iranians. I mean Caucasus-Gedrosia kind of people! People of different colors and shapes, some of them were light, some of them were dark, like we see in Kurdistan and Persia.

Those samples from Mongolia were heavily mixed with East Asians, which explains why most are dark haired with brown eyes.

 

[Aberdeen]

.......................
I am on your side with the Idea that R1a* evolved somewhere between West and South_Central Asia.

I don't think anyone is disputing that as a possibility or even a probability. But there's a very long time gap between the time when R1a* first appeared and the time when Z282 and Z93 appear to have expanded rather dramatically, some time around the beginning of the Bronze Age. As has been discussed in other threads, the dividing line that (mostly) separates those two subclades would suggest that the expansion started from the Russian steppes. If you have a reason for locating the initial expansion point somewhere further east and south (a reason other than what happened thousands of years previously), I for one would be interested in reading about it. I do realize that there are dangers in using present day DNA distributions to explain what happened in past time periods such as the Bronze Age, in parts of the world where there have been a lot of subsequent population movements. But at this point, I see the distribution of those two subclades as evidence of the IE homeland being on the Russian steppes, regardless of where R1a* first evolved.

 

[Goga]

But there is no ancient Z282 or Z283 found in Central Asia. There's not proof at all that Z93 or ancestor of Z93 is from Europe. Where's the proof? I want to see a proof! This doesn't make any sense. Actually, there're many indications that Z93 and ancestor of Z93 is from the Iranian Plateau. http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288 and http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg201450a.html

 

[ebAmerican]

The issue I have is there is no archaeological data showing influence of the BMAC region north, but there is archaeological evidence showing Andronovo Cultural influence in the BMAC. We have R1a in the Andronovo around 2000BC. No ancient DNA data has shown R1a in the middle east before 2000 BC. There was a strong relationship between the Middle East, BMAC, and the Harappa culture, but little contact between these cultures and the Steppe until 2000 BC when the nomads began to settle down to farm. Andronovo is probably Pro-Indo-Iranian, and brought the language into the Middle East and Northern India from BMAC zone. Andronovo was intrusive into the BMAC zone and a substratum of BMAC words for farming, religion, and urban life can be found in Indo-Iranian from the settling into farms and urban life of the Andronovo-Tazabag'yab culture hybrid culture. There was trade and cultural exchange between the Volga and Mongolia area prior to 4000 BC. After 4000 BC there is evidence for contact of the Volga into Eastern Europe. R1a-M17 is found in small amounts in all known modern areas of R1a distribution. A West Central Asian home land for R1a* south or north of the Caspian Sea is probable according to modern distributions. I would guess north of the Caspian Sea. If ancient R1a is found in the Zargos Mountains or the Iranian Plateau, then I reevaluate my stance. This is all backed up by Mallory and Underhill.

 

[Engel]

R1a originated in Siberia. No offense but Goga seems to be a half wit

 

[Aberdeen]

R1a originated in Siberia. No offense but Goga seems to be a half wit

Stop the childish name calling. Goga has a point of view I don't agree with, but at least he tries to present arguments to support his views. You just threw out a statement without explaining anything, which isn't a very impressive way of doing things. I have yet to see you present a well thought out position about anything.

 

[Aberdeen]

But there is no ancient Z282 or Z283 found in Central Asia. There's not proof at all that Z93 or ancestor of Z93 is from Europe. Where's the proof? I want to see a proof! This doesn't make any sense. Actually, there're many indications that Z93 and ancestor of Z93 is from the Iranian Plateau. http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288 and http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg201450a.html

Look at the R1a migration map on this website. The map shows where Z93 started from and where it spread to.

 

[Alan]

But we can determine that there was a population movement from Europe to Asia during the Bronze Age, and judging by this latest study these people carried R1a-Z93.

Sure there was population movement from Europe into Asia. And allot of it is even recorded. Like Scythians, Cimmerians etc. But the question we need to ask ourselves is, Coudln't this have been rather a "back migration" ?

It could be that the Indo_Iranian branch of Indo European languages has a Northern Origin in is a signal of back migration into West and South_central Asia. These could have brought z93 with them.

But What if the ancestory of this Northern Indo European tribes (like the Balto_Slavs, Indo_Iranians etc.) had their root coming from somewhere else, like Western Asia for example. This would make the Indo_Iranian/Balto_Slavic only a second expansion and not initialy the first.

The new foundings that the Kurgan people had darker features to modern Europeans speak for a population movement into this area in my opinion.

There are two reasons for me to think that way. If they were simply local Hunther and Gatherers, they would have alleles for dark skin and light eyes. But the Kurgan people where rather medium skinned and mixed eyed with the majority beeing brown. So it is unlikely that they were local Hunthers and Gatherers. Also the Kurgan culture seems to have roots in Mesopotamia.

There are few possible scenarios in my opinion.
the most likely two in my opinion.
1. Proto_Indo Europeans moved from a region between West and South_Central Asia into the Steppes/Northern Caucasus and from their they spread into Europe. The Indo_Iranian branch could have existed already in Western Asia or they evolved later in the Steppes/Northern Caucasus and from there migrated around the globe.

2. Proto_Indo Europeans ultimately evolved in the Pontic_Caspian steppes and migrated from there around the globe. But the Proto_Proto Indo Europeans came from somewhere else, again West Asia is the best candidate.

 

[Alan]

Moreover, R1a-Z93 is closely related to the European-specific R1a-Z282, since they both share the Z645 mutation which is only around 4,500 years old. But basal R1a-Z93 lineages do exist in Europe, and these are difficult to cluster and unlikely to be the result of any sort of recent migrations from Asia to Europe.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results

But this is not the only subclade found in Western Asia.

These here are also quite common.

Those are not the only one. There are quite some more. And since R1a* is quite diverse iN Western_SouthCentral Asia, I doubt that all of them can be explained with movements from Europe.

 

[Fire Haired14]

Alan and Gogo,

We all know you guys arguing against a European origin of R1a Z93 and Indo Iranian languages because of agenda not logic. Your previous posts show that you will argue for any type of origin if it's not European.

You guys miss interpret people who argue for a European origin as being Eurocentric. People are insulting you guys because they are getting fed up with your biased theories and refusal to acknowledge the evidence of a European origin of R1a Z93 and Indo Iranian languages, not because they hate west Asians. Both of you should look over this situation, not take insults on the internet so seriously(so you don't dis agree with someone just because they insulted you), and read the evidence again.

Goga: So Aryans who Invaded India have to be 'Central Asian' people, they were already partly 'Central Asian' who mixed with the natives of Central Asia at that time. And now we know that those Central Asian people were mostly brown eyes, dark hair!

And IMO that's impossible. Why? Because ancient R* they found in Central Asia was also dark too. That's why I do believe that its descendant R1* was dark too.

The ancient Medes & Persians called themselves 'Aryans'. The Medes & Persians looked exactly like modern day Iranic people in Kurdistan and NorthWest Persia.

This debate was never about whether the early Indo Iranians of bronze age south and west Asia were light or dark pigmentated. It isn't the end of the world if R1a Z93 and Indo Iranian languages originated in European-looking people. There are many people even today in south-central Asia with radically differnt physical features like Indians and Tibetans, and they are very comfortable with this. Don't worry, the actions of pre historic people never or rarely had anything to to do with our culture's concept of race.

Studying history isn't about measuring the esteem of people groups. If you go far back enough almost every population has very unpure ancestry, the most traditional and popular parts of their culture even their ethnic identity comes from exotic(in their point of view) foreigners, and their history is full of many evil people and actions. Indo Iranian languages and R1a Z93 originating in people you see as foreign should not be so hard to accept, and does not destroy the integrity of Kurdish people.

 

[Engel]

Stop the childish name calling. Goga has a point of view I don't agree with, but at least he tries to present arguments to support his views. You just threw out a statement without explaining anything, which isn't a very impressive way of doing things. I have yet to see you present a well thought out position about anything.

Qute simple really. Just google Siberian origins of R1a

 

[Sile]

Stop the childish name calling. Goga has a point of view I don't agree with, but at least he tries to present arguments to support his views. You just threw out a statement without explaining anything, which isn't a very impressive way of doing things. I have yet to see you present a well thought out position about anything.

I have to agree with you

IIRC, this arguement was on another forum and the conclusion was Z93 origins was NE caspian sea area , where post#55 ( first map ) has the purple figures

 

[polako]

Those are not the only one. There are quite some more. And since R1a* is quite diverse iN Western_SouthCentral Asia, I doubt that all of them can be explained with movements from Europe.

They can all be explained by movements from Europe to Asia during the past 5,000 years.

West Asia, including Kurdistan, was a very different place before the Indo-European and Turkic migrations into the area. It was more like a cross between Sardinia and the southern Levant than what it is today.

 

[mihaitzateo]

R1a originated in Siberia. No offense but Goga seems to be a half wit

What are your proofs for that?
First of all,there are no proofs that R1A originated only in one place.
Now,supposing that R1A originated only in one place and that place would have been Siberia,how come now most people in Siberia are N or Q,or whatever,but they are not R1A?
I think actually R1A originated in more than one place and places were R1A originated are North-West Asia -Iran and so on,also,Eastern Europe (not Siberia).
If R1A is also found in Central Asia,at some populations,that is something that is not usual for all populations there.
Besides,it need to be taken into account that Central Asian people mixed with Indo-European people .