It's very important when discussing these topics to be precise in one's language. EEF is not synonymous with Middle Eastern. The EEF population no longer exists in pure form in the Middle East because Middle Eastern people have experienced gene flows since the Neolithic just as have Europeans. Indeed, it may never have existed in the Middle East because it is possible these farmers who came from the Middle East 8-9,000 years ago may have picked up some hunter gatherer ancestry in the Balkans. Alternatively, we may discover that a component similar to EEF existed in the Balkans already in the Mesolithic. We don't yet know these things and we shouldn't pretend that we do.
In addition, the fact that some areas in Europe are higher in terms of their percentage of EEF than others can be very well explained by the fact that southern Europe, for instance, may have had a much smaller population of hunter gatherers when the farmers arrived, or the hunter gatherers may have fled to the north and particularly the north east in large numbers, where for a few thousand years the farmers could not follow them because the initial Neolithic package was not adapted to that terrain or climate. In addition, you have the Indo-European migrations, with their unknown amounts of ANE and WHE, which many seem to believe affected the northern and central areas of Europe more than the southern areas. We then have the gene flow correlated with the movements of the Germanic tribes south following the fall of Rome, which again falls into a north/south cline.
Most importantly, as I said, I know of NO documented movement of peoples from the Middle East into Europe in the Copper or Bronze Age or Iron Age. In the case of Italy, those movements for northern Italy were from central Europe, and some for the south were from Greece and the Balkans, with the possible exception of the Etruscans. As for the Muslim Kingdoms of Spain and Sicily and southern Italy, (and also a stretch of southern France) they were predominantly North African Berbers. We should know the difference.
There are far too many opinions expressed on these topics which have no factual or scientific support. It's not helpful.
We are talking about pre historic times(no written documents), so finding evidence for migrations is probably very difficult for the experts. Many inventions like Copper existed in Europe and west Asia so there was contact between the two regions. You can't ignore the possibilities of trade and admixing through the Mediterranean sea, it doesn't have to be giant cultures migrating from one place to another. Just because there is no archaeological evidence for it doesn't mean we should ignore the idea.
North Africans also mainly decend from the same middle eastern source as did early European farmers and modern west Asians, so north African ancestry in a European population will make them appear to be more west Asian. When I say middle east, I mean west Asia and north Africa.
In that regard, I am sure we'd all be thrilled to get some definitive proof as to the origin of R1b L-23 and as to the direction and timing of gene flow from that point. So far as I know, it doesn't exist.
Oh, and as for the Ashkenazim, I'm dubious about using such a unique population to make general points about the peopling of Europe. Regardless, they came to Europe
with their EEF ancestry; it has nothing to do with any post Neolithic gene flows
into Europe, so their data is irrelevant for that discussion.[/QUOTE]
Angela we are expressing the same view in differnt ways. I agree modern middle easterns are not the same as Stuttgart, but both descend mainly from the same source, which is why Ashkenazi Jews score so much in EEF. Stuttgart had some WHG ancestry and modern middle easterns can have ANE, Sub Saharan, east Asian, or south Asian ancestry.
In that regard, I am sure we'd all be thrilled to get some definitive proof as to the origin of R1b L-23 and as to the direction and timing of gene flow from that point. So far as I know, it doesn't exist.
Don't worry it is safe to assume R1b1a2a L23 came to Europe from west Asia. Evidence in autosomal DNA is the Gedorsia component of K12b which correlates with R1b in Europe.
In Europe about 100% of R1b is either R1b1a2a1a L11(estimated to 5,000 years old) or R1b1a2a L23*(L51-), so not very diverse. In west Asia the majority of R1b is R1b1a2a L23*(L51-), but you also have R1b*(P297-, V8
in Iran, R1b1b M335 in Anatolia, R1b1a2 M269(L23-), and so on. There are also basal R lineages in west Asia; R1*(R1a-, R1b-), R*(R2-, R1-), R1a1-SRY10831.2*(R1a1a M19
. I am trying to show you that Y DNA R and it's descendant R1b have incredible diversity in west Asia, and that R1b probably originated in west Asia.
R1b1a2a L23 must have been the first R1b in Europe and the Germanic-Italo-Celtic branch R1b1a2a1a L11 was born only around 5,000 years ago and spread during the bronze age. It is impossible to accurately say when R1b1a2a L23 first arrived in Europe because there has not been much study on east European R1b. It is safe to assume the LBK and Cardiel farmers lacked R1b, but I guess some east European Neolithic farmers could have had some R1b. The west Asians who brought R1b1a2a L23 to Europe were probably pretty differnt from Stuttgart(largely because of their lack of WHG ancestry and ANE ancestry) and represent another type of middle eastern ancestry for Europeans.
