The Mediterranean route into Europe (Paschou et al. 2014)

I think the points made in this book are important in understanding the route taken in the Neolithic:
See: Ancient East and West by Gocha Tsetskhladze
http://books.google.com/books?id=Qz...e Mediterranean run counter clockwise&f=false

The first point is that the boats at that time had great difficulty in sailing into headwinds.

The season was from late March to late October since that is when there were clearer skies and moderate winds and slighter seas.

Wind and water currents during that sailing season also imposed limitations upon sailing. (I think there is a tendency when creating models of human movement to draw a straight line from one place to another, with insufficient consideration to the challenges that people might have faced in taking such a route due to environmental constraints.)

Some journeys from east directly west were possible by taking advantage of certain wind and water currents at certain times of the
year, but moving north or south mostly involved clawing one's way along the coast using the currents and the morning and evening sea breezes.

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From the movies like Ulysses, Jason and the Argonauts, The Golden Fleece, etc. they show ships sailing along the coast. All those stories mention long journeys lasting months and years while a modern boat would have covered the whole trip in days.

Thnx Sile.

Boy am I rude. Sometimes I just move ahead without acknowledging or thanking people. Must do better.
 
I haven't had time to read the paper yet, but looking at the network analysis (fig.4) it gives the impression that Neolithic farmers spread from continental Italy to France, then to the Basque region/Pyrénées, and then only to Sardinia. This is interesting because I had always assumed that the diffusion progressed from east to west, and that farmers had reached Sardinia directly from the Italian peninsula via Corsica or Sicily/Tunisia. It actually would make sense if the Neolithic colonists had first reached Iberia and migrated by boat from the Balearic islands to Sardinia following the sea currents. After all, the currents go eastward in that part of the Mediterranean, so navigation on primitive boats would have been near impossible from Sicily to Sardinia. From Corsica the currents flow north, so not an option either. The only route is from Iberia.

current.GIF


This is very important because it could mean that Sardinian I2a1a could have come from Iberia in Neolithic times, rather than being a Mesolithic remnant. It would also explain the similarity between the Basques and Sardinians.
Cool map, and can explain spread of farmers/first sailors. It is almost impossible to raw against strong currents in simple boats they had. However it is so close from Sardinia from Corsica and then to main land that it is hard to explain why there was not stronger and more uniform population movements to Sardinia. We have to look for deeper explanation yet.
 
Cool map, and can explain spread of farmers/first sailors. It is almost impossible to raw against strong currents in simple boats they had. However it is so close from Sardinia from Corsica and then to main land that it is hard to explain why there was not stronger and more uniform population movements to Sardinia. We have to look for deeper explanation yet.

I think there must have been some kind of dangerous sea barrier between Corsica and Sardinia that is no longer there. Riptides and shoals of some kind.

Simple little boats can make long sea voyages if you know how to build a boat that can tack against the wind, unless you also have strong currents to content with. But people who hadn't yet learned how to tack against the wind would find sailing the Mediterranean to be a much more difficult business.

I still wonder whether some of the European Neolithic population got there from Africa and the genetic evidence is no longer in North Africa because climatic change caused a mass population movement at some point - North Africa apparently did start drying out during the early Neolithic. And while the trip from Morocco to Spain would have been difficult, the distance isn't very great.
 
Also interesting in this regard is that there's no line from Egypt to the Druse, despite all the talk that there must be an Egyptian influence in the Druse since their religion partly has Egyptian origins.
I think that's probably old, shared, Neolithic ancestry, don't you think?
I think bulk of these connections are. The only substantial population replacement happened in Neolithic.


Despite the fact that the Palestinians have been influenced by subsequent movements from the Sinai and the Arabian peninsula, and have absorbed additional SSA, I'm sure a large component is very old and local to the area. As for the Phoenicians in Lebanon, we're taking about an area that's right in the neighborhood. I wonder how easy it would be to distinguish a Phoenicans from one of those early farmers anyway. Would they have gotten any ANE yet?
It is hard to say. I'm guessing that ANE started to show there in any noticeable numbers with IEs, although I don't think they had mixed with locals well, especially at the coastal regions. Palestinians are very related to Jews (the left over Jews after expulsion from Israel?) and they don't have ANE unless they are Ashkenazi. At the moment I have nothing more than a believe that Jews and Phoenicians are close descendants of Near Eastern Farmers.
However other side of me thinks of Jews as nomads, which can explain their affinity to moving around the world from way back.
 
I think there must have been some kind of dangerous sea barrier between Corsica and Sardinia that is no longer there. Riptides and shoals of some kind.
Islands are only 10km away. You can see Sardinia from Corsica:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.373...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s66lV44efD0Pg2cuNh6hYIQ!2e0

I still wonder whether some of the European Neolithic population got there from Africa and the genetic evidence is no longer in North Africa because climatic change caused a mass population movement at some point - North Africa apparently did start drying out during the early Neolithic. And while the trip from Morocco to Spain would have been difficult, the distance isn't very great.
One can wait for a strong wind from the right direction, I guess.
 
The currents show modern sea levels. If the sea level was lower the currents might be different and those land bridges would be handy in crossing during low tides. Neolithic Era about 10,200 BCE (12,200 years ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic

You can tell how much sea level has risen, go to venice, check the old 1000 year old buildingS, go outside these building, check the concrete/marble steps that where used to enter the boat and you will see 3 to 4 steps are permanently below the current sea levels....that equals about a metre rise in sea level in a thousand years. factor that steady lowering to the bronze age and you get an idea
 
You can tell how much sea level has risen, go to venice, check the old 1000 year old buildingS, go outside these building, check the concrete/marble steps that where used to enter the boat and you will see 3 to 4 steps are permanently below the current sea levels....that equals about a metre rise in sea level in a thousand years. factor that steady lowering to the bronze age and you get an idea
You also have to accommodate for high and low tides. Water can easily rise and fall a meter, five steps.
http://www.myforecast.com/bin/tide.m?city=67449&metric=false&tideLocationID=T2488
 
You can tell how much sea level has risen, go to venice, check the old 1000 year old buildingS, go outside these building, check the concrete/marble steps that where used to enter the boat and you will see 3 to 4 steps are permanently below the current sea levels....that equals about a metre rise in sea level in a thousand years. factor that steady lowering to the bronze age and you get an idea

Where does the "steady lowering" idea come from? There are a number of factors that can affect ocean levels in a specific area, including shifts in the earth's crust in a particular locale.
 
I think there must have been some kind of dangerous sea barrier between Corsica and Sardinia that is no longer there. Riptides and shoals of some kind.

Simple little boats can make long sea voyages if you know how to build a boat that can tack against the wind, unless you also have strong currents to content with. But people who hadn't yet learned how to tack against the wind would find sailing the Mediterranean to be a much more difficult business.

I still wonder whether some of the European Neolithic population got there from Africa and the genetic evidence is no longer in North Africa because climatic change caused a mass population movement at some point - North Africa apparently did start drying out during the early Neolithic. And while the trip from Morocco to Spain would have been difficult, the distance isn't very great.


There's not a total genetic barrier between Corsica and Sardinia. The brand of G2a which Oetzi carries (G2a-L91, or G2a2b) is found in both areas. In Gallura, in northern Sardinia, they speak a Corsican dialect, although that may be of much later provenance. I think that Corsican DNA is a combination of "Sardinian", Ligurian and Tuscan DNA, the later two obviously much later arrivals, and more prominent in the middle and upper classes than in the isolated mountain villages. Corsica just isn't studied very much. If it were, it might cluster somewhere between Sardinians and Italians.

I don't know of any evidence for Neolithic spread from North Africa across the Straits of Gibraltar, but there does seem to be evidence of gene flow in both directions at that point in the Upper Paleolithic with the Solutrean-Oranian interaction. Then, later, there was contact through the Capsian culture of North Africa both with Spain and with southern Sicily, which coincidentally is the second area where North Africa comes very close to Europe. However, I believe the water levels were lower at that time, although I'd have to check to make sure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsian_culture

I suppose my general point is that in places which are very close geographically, contact could be made directly between the northern coast and the southern coast of the Mediterranean, or between Corsica and Sardinia, for example, despite the constraints of wind and sea currents, and more often when sea levels were low. However, the main movement of people, technology, and trade, certainly in the Neolithic, seems to have moved from east to west with a bifurcation in the Middle East, i.e. one flow moving north and west along the northern Mediterranean, and one moving south and then west along the North African coast (and further south into Africa).
 
Corsica is French territory. Napolean was a Corsican. I think Maciamo mentioned that France forbids DNA testing. So for the time being it is anybody's guess.
 
Where does the "steady lowering" idea come from? There are a number of factors that can affect ocean levels in a specific area, including shifts in the earth's crust in a particular locale.

How right you are...each area has to be evaluated independently...irresponsible development also impacts sea level in various places:

See: http://people.umass.edu/latour/Italy/venice_water/
Or, for an update: http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/...e-sinking-five-times-faster-than-thought?lite
"A century ago, St. Marks Square (figure 6), one of the lowest points in the city, flooded about 9 times a year; now it is inundated with water approximately 100 times per year (PBS, 2002).

Subsidence in Venice is caused by both natural and manmade factors. In the 1950s a deep-water channel was dug along the edge of the Venetian lagoon to allow oil tankers to dock at a new refinery. Additionally, land-based industry, near Venice, significantly lowered the ground water level in a large aquifer deep below Venice through overuse of artesian wells. These two manmade events caused subsoil compaction and the rapid sinking of Venice. By the 1970s, Venice had sunk almost 20 centimeters (BBC, 2003). Fortunately when the Venetians realized what was happening in the 1980s, the artesian wells were closed off and the drilling of new wells banned. This helped to slow the sinking. However, Venice is still subsiding at a much slower rate due to a natural process - tectonic plate subduction. Venice lies on a plate in the Adriatic that is being forced downwards and underneath another Italian plate. This has the effect of lowering Venice at a rate of about 1 mm per year (New Scientist, 2003).
 
Where does the "steady lowering" idea come from? There are a number of factors that can affect ocean levels in a specific area, including shifts in the earth's crust in a particular locale.

part of the 2012 congress on the adriatic refrugium ( i think it was held in helsinki)
 
Corsica is French territory. Napolean was a Corsican. I think Maciamo mentioned that France forbids DNA testing. So for the time being it is anybody's guess.

corsica was far longer under genoese hands, Napoleon Bonaparte family was of Italian origin .........poor Italy to have one of the worst criminals in world history .........nearly equal to hitler
 
^ I do not believe what you said.

Napoleon was one of the best. Should it weren't for Napoleon, it would have been far more difficult to start the Greek Revolution of Independence.

I was so much displeased when the great leader lost in Waterloo.

His plan was good: to destroy all bloodthirsty monarchs who oppressed people.

So sad that he lost, really terrible.
 
archeologly revealed a galley buried with people with leprosy on an island in the venetian lagoon with a church

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1182-sunken-venetian-island-to-be-revealed.html#.U5nw3ygY7Sg

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor.../Ships-surface-from-sunken-Venice-island.html

http://www.venicethefuture.com/schede/uk/340?aliusid=340

http://www.salve.it/uk/soluzioni/speciali/boccalama/boccalama2.htm

island disappeared before any modern man ventures..............like the empty of the fresh water basin to cool the chemical plant in maghera ( mainland)........since recently closed down or about to be closed down
 
^ I do not believe what you said.

Napoleon was one of the best. Should it weren't for Napoleon, it would have been far more difficult to start the Greek Revolution of Independence.

A man that wars in all of europe and north africa, send millions of soldiers to their graves in fruitless wars against many nations, destroyed nations completley and gives rule to these nations to family members, never ruled under peace, made himself emperor ( like a dictator) is no great man, a criminal to man yes
 
A man that wars in all of europe and north africa, send millions of soldiers to their graves in fruitless wars against many nations, destroyed nations completley and gives rule to these nations to family members, never ruled under peace, made himself emperor ( like a dictator) is no great man, a criminal to man yes

How can you have peace when everybody attacks you?

Yes, those bloody monarchies should have been completely obliterated.

Feed the queen now.
 

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