New study claims that Irishmen descended from Turkish farmers

[Aberdeen]

The link you posted has nothing to do with eye color / night vision and is just some sensationalist junk article that has long been proven to be trash.

Also the bias in your opinion is ... intentional comedy?

http://www.dukemedicine.org/blog/myth-or-fact-people-light-eyes-are-more-sensitive-sunlight

I don't know what put you in such a nasty mood but in fact a respected news website that specializes in news about science, research and technology is much more trustworthy than a medicine for profit organization. And no - the article is not sensationalist junk and its statement that blue eyes have no adaptive value has not been disproven - you won't find any reputable scientific organization that disagrees with the idea. You may find some "medicine for profit" group that wants to make money from an unscientific idea, but that's not the same thing.

 

[joeyc]

Is this a joke? East Asians like the Chinese are a lot lighter in skintone than any Pakistani. Kalash on average look no different from Punjabis and Pashtuns.

 

[mihaitzateo]

It is true, I agree! If one has ligh blue eyes they are more sensitive to light (I know from my own experience) and albino people have to wear sun glasses because their eyes are extremely sensitive to sun.

WHGs lived in forests where there was less light. And the highest percentage of light eyed individuals is in the territories rich in WHG ancestry.

Not really.
I have brown/light brown eyes (no idea what nuance exactly) and my eyes are very sensitive to sun.
I know enough Romanians blue eyed and most do not have their eyes at all sensitive to sun.I only know 2 Romanians with eyes sensitivity to sun,besides me,one is green eyed,another blue eyed,so eyes color do not matter.
Most romanians are not having their eyes sensitive to sun.
I am not albino either,my hair is medium brown,or dark brown.

 

[mihaitzateo]

Coming back to the thread,as already written here,if 85% of Irish males descend from Anatolian farmers than how come lactose intolerance is very low,at Irish people,which clearly shows Irish people have a diet based on milk?
No idea how many of Irish people can eat milk without any problem,but is at least 85%,numbers are saying,95%,others,90%,lowest I have seen is 85%.
This means these males moved to Ireland and switched from farming to raising sheep and cows,because Ireland is not a good place to practice agriculture.
Question is,what is the route on which they came in Ireland from Anatolia?
Because there is a lot of good land for agriculture on the way from Anatolia to Ireland so why they did not stoped on the way,but they came till Ireland?
And Ireland,considering the climate there,is excelent for raising cows,so I think most of Irish people are descending from herders,not from farmers.

 

[vandalorum]

Coming back to the thread,as already written here,if 85% of Irish males descend from Anatolian farmers than how come lactose intolerance is very low,at Irish people,which clearly shows Irish people have a diet based on milk?
No idea how many of Irish people can eat milk without any problem,but is at least 85%,numbers are saying,95%,others,90%,lowest I have seen is 85%.
This means these males moved to Ireland and switched from farming to raising sheep and cows,because Ireland is not a good place to practice agriculture.
Question is,what is the route on which they came in Ireland from Anatolia?
Because there is a lot of good land for agriculture on the way from Anatolia to Ireland so why they did not stoped on the way,but they came till Ireland?
And Ireland,considering the climate there,is excelent for raising cows,so I think most of Irish people are descending from herders,not from farmers.

Maybe because climate in Anatolia was quite like in Ireland now?

 

[Aberdeen]

Coming back to the thread,as already written here,if 85% of Irish males descend from Anatolian farmers than how come lactose intolerance is very low,at Irish people,which clearly shows Irish people have a diet based on milk?
No idea how many of Irish people can eat milk without any problem,but is at least 85%,numbers are saying,95%,others,90%,lowest I have seen is 85%.
This means these males moved to Ireland and switched from farming to raising sheep and cows,because Ireland is not a good place to practice agriculture.
Question is,what is the route on which they came in Ireland from Anatolia?
Because there is a lot of good land for agriculture on the way from Anatolia to Ireland so why they did not stoped on the way,but they came till Ireland?
And Ireland,considering the climate there,is excelent for raising cows,so I think most of Irish people are descending from herders,not from farmers.

Have you ever been to Ireland? It's a green and pleasant land that's good for farming, including but not limited to raising livestock. Many Irish farmers, even today, practice mixed farming, with crops and livestock. People there eat a lot of grain, potatoes and vegetables, and a lot of dairy as well as lamb, beef and seafood. Having lactase persistence is useful but would only be necessary in famine conditions, which the Irish often experienced because of oppression by the English and not because of climate and soil conditions. The Irish potato famine was a disaster because the English landlords kept exporting meat and grain after the potato crop failed.

 

[Angela]

I did a quick scan through google scholar and some science publications, and it seems to me that, unlike with skin pigmentation, the science with regard to selective pressures on eye color is still in its infancy. It certainly isn't totally clear that it has to do with light eyes being more adaptive in low sun areas, although there are certainly some studies which suggest that and continuing research may bring some light to bear on the issue. (I don't know why, btw, a Duke University study would be assumed to be invalid.)

See this study for some background on iris pigmentation. It seems just from the description of the various parts of the iris and their function that research into the impact of iris color in reflecting some of the light, and differences in contraction time might be fruitful areas of research, but that's a layperson's view so perhaps I'm reading it incorrectly.

http://bashaar.org.il/files/4150.pdf

They mentioned several factors that were new to me, like the possible effect of eye color on reaction time and certain sports. They also cited other literature to the effect that the ability to overcome seasonal affective disorder (SAD), a major depressive disorder, is linked to lighter eye color.

As for the influence of sexual selection, that has always seemed problematic to me because it is so subject to changes in culture. Obviously, if a group rises to power which carries a certain phenotype, that phenotype might and probably will become preferred and there will be sexual selection for it.

However, I don't know how sound it is to transfer these types of judgements as to "attractiveness" 15,000 years into the past to other very foreign cultures. Certainly, even in more modern times, children born with blue eyes in remote African tribes were sometimes killed at birth for being "alien". (That's of course before the total impact of colonialism, which introduced the idea that fair pigmentation is associated with privilege.)

Among groups which normally are lighter eyed and haired at birth and sometimes into youth, I could see, however, where males might be more attracted to females who carry those traits for longer because it might have associations with infantilism and therefore malleability.

 

[Sile]

View attachment 6956

source: http://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask316

is eye colour heritary?

my family example

my father pale green eyes - mother hazel eyes
me - mid green eyes
sister- mid brown eyes

my wife - pale blue eyes............her father grey eyes ............her mother hazel eyes...............her brother grey eyes
all my sons - mid blue eyes

I see some correspondence with "immediate family" genetics but in both cases hazel missed out ..................the main colours are blue or brown eyes

 

[vigilantexplorer]

I looked around quickly and couldn't find any valid information about vision in relation to eye colour. All I found is that blue eyes might be more sensitive, meaning delicate, to strong light.

The light enters an eye through the pupil, the dark center of the eye. The light doesn't enter through iris, so colour of iris shouldn't matter regarding vision sensitivity or colours.

this is as unscientific as the claim blue eyes emerged because of attracitivity..

my mother has blue eyes and has big problems seeing in the dark! you know what, you can go around it making various theories but only fact is blue eyes and green eyes both come from oca2 this is even verified by mainstream science and accepted by most scientists and opticians. a friend of mine has blue eyes and cannot see red and green colours! in my work most of the customers i see with deaf aids are blue eyed. melanin covers everything from eyes to eardrums to brain(neuromelanin) and a lack of it leads to serious problems: http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/06/autism-and-redheads-the-canaries-in-the-epidemic-part-1.html
by the way why do you guys think a blue eyed person needs optical glasses and sunglasses?! because the sunglasses are a substitute for the lack of melanin cover on the eyes!!! they are an artifiacial sunscreen for blue eyes!

give me one example where a blue eyed person sees better in the dark, we can meet up and make an experiment with blue eyed and brown eyed person in a dark forest lets see who will be better at night vision finding hidden objects.. even bats and tarsiers who are nocturnal creatures have brown eyes.
http://biologypop.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/tarsierfood.jpg

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/186125397069988749/
http://www.sweetgeodes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Putins-glasses.jpg
http://buzzcarl.com/images/IMG_9902.jpg

do you think this is for fashion and a coincidence?

 

[vigilantexplorer]

Yes anyone who has been to an optometrist has had the drops put in their eyes that dilate your pupils making them more sensitive to sunlight. Everyone has blue eyes however most of us have a layer of brown pigment covering the blue layer, there is a new procedure that uses uv rays to disintegrate the brown pigment changing your eye color to blue.

http://www.stromamedical.com/



If you look at the GED match Eye colors of the European Hunter Gatherers you can see that they don't actually have blue eyes, they all share a light yellow coloration. To me this shows that there was selection underway for people who had better vision hunting in low light, Europe is already an area with low light but the dense forests would have made things even darker. Combine those adaptations with EEF depigmentation genes and you get blue IMO.

ANE's on the other hand didn't need good vision to see a Mammoth (lol), likewise EEFs food was stationary and didn't require great vision.

are you sane? i mean you advertise to people they should albinize themselves by removal of melanin from their eyes?! whats the next step? peroxidizing their hair and bleaching cream? oh my god this is crazy..

as it would not be sad enough how much health problems low melanated individials have already, now whe should make a fashion trend out of it... :useless:

in my family all light eyed individuals have vision problems need glasses and my granparents both had several surgeries this is not funny at all! technically no one i know with brown eyes has problems with eyes only a handfull with very light brown eyes who inherited weak vision from their parents
those blue eyed people i know without glasses wear mostly contact lenses..

 

[vandalorum]

One is for sure. Light eyes are blue and grey. Blue with gray or green or green with gray is already mixed colour. My eyes colour is grey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_color#Eye_color_chart_.28Martin_Scale.29

 

[LeBrok]

this is as unscientific as the claim blue eyes emerged because of attracitivity..

my mother has blue eyes and has big problems seeing in the dark! you know what, you can go around it making various theories but only fact is blue eyes and green eyes both come from oca2 this is even verified by mainstream science and accepted by most scientists and opticians. a friend of mine has blue eyes and cannot see red and green colours! in my work most of the customers i see with deaf aids are blue eyed. melanin covers everything from eyes to eardrums to brain(neuromelanin) and a lack of it leads to serious problems: http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/06/autism-and-redheads-the-canaries-in-the-epidemic-part-1.html
by the way why do you guys think a blue eyed person needs optical glasses and sunglasses?! because the sunglasses are a substitute for the lack of melanin cover on the eyes!!! they are an artifiacial sunscreen for blue eyes!

It must be a curse on your family, sorry to hear that. I know many blue eye people and they are not crazy about sunglasses. Your case might be related to additional "bad" mutation.

give me one example where a blue eyed person sees better in the dark, we can meet up and make an experiment with blue eyed and brown eyed person in a dark forest lets see who will be better at night vision finding hidden objects.. even bats and tarsiers who are nocturnal creatures have brown eyes.

do you think this is for fashion and a coincidence?

Reading with comprehension problem again? I never claimed that blue eye people can see better in the dark.

 

[Greying Wanderer]

Have you ever been to Ireland? It's a green and pleasant land that's good for farming, including but not limited to raising livestock. Many Irish farmers, even today, practice mixed farming, with crops and livestock. People there eat a lot of grain, potatoes and vegetables, and a lot of dairy as well as lamb, beef and seafood. Having lactase persistence is useful but would only be necessary in famine conditions, which the Irish often experienced because of oppression by the English and not because of climate and soil conditions. The Irish potato famine was a disaster because the English landlords kept exporting meat and grain after the potato crop failed.

"Having lactase persistence is useful but would only be necessary in famine conditions"

Or before standard neolithic crops had been adapted for the conditions in NW Europe.

edit: the "green" bit is partly to do with Atlantic rainfall - which imo is the likely cause of the early neolithic crop problem all along the Atlantic coast

edit2: "The Irish potato famine" Didn't the Irish population treble after the introduction of potatoes? Wouldn't that suggest standard crops were a problem (relatively speaking) before hand.

 

[Greying Wanderer]

I looked around quickly and couldn't find any valid information about vision in relation to eye colour. All I found is that blue eyes might be more sensitive, meaning delicate, to strong light.

The light enters an eye through the pupil, the dark center of the eye. The light doesn't enter through iris, so colour of iris shouldn't matter regarding vision sensitivity or colours.

Sunlight is apparently important in keeping eyes healthy - especially in children. Maybe it is something to do with that?

http://seattletimes.com/html/health/2018653577_chinavision11.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17942181

 

[Greying Wanderer]

Coming back to the thread,as already written here,if 85% of Irish males descend from Anatolian farmers than how come lactose intolerance is very low,at Irish people,which clearly shows Irish people have a diet based on milk?
No idea how many of Irish people can eat milk without any problem,but is at least 85%,numbers are saying,95%,others,90%,lowest I have seen is 85%.
This means these males moved to Ireland and switched from farming to raising sheep and cows,because Ireland is not a good place to practice agriculture.
Question is,what is the route on which they came in Ireland from Anatolia?
Because there is a lot of good land for agriculture on the way from Anatolia to Ireland so why they did not stoped on the way,but they came till Ireland?
And Ireland,considering the climate there,is excelent for raising cows,so I think most of Irish people are descending from herders,not from farmers.

"what is the route on which they came in Ireland"

Quite. If you go back far enough everyone came from protozoa but it's the route in between that is interesting and for the reasons you describe that route was very unlikely to be directly from Anatolia.

 

[Greying Wanderer]

Skin color

If humans need vitamin D and you can get vitamin D through the skin *or* through diet then a population would only need to develop lighter skin if *both* conditions applied i.e. low UV region *and* not enough vitamin D in their diet.


The best source of dietary vitamin D is fish.

So people living in northern latitudes *away from the coast* might have had to develop lighter skin (nb lighter not necessarily light).

Early farmers would have had the same problem.

If different skin lightening genes developed among different populations and if people from those populations later mixed then they might get both sets i.e. one population might just have the farmer ones while another people has both the farmer ones and the interior HG ones.

 

[Aberdeen]

"Having lactase persistence is useful but would only be necessary in famine conditions"

Or before standard neolithic crops had been adapted for the conditions in NW Europe.

edit: the "green" bit is partly to do with Atlantic rainfall - which imo is the likely cause of the early neolithic crop problem all along the Atlantic coast

edit2: "The Irish potato famine" Didn't the Irish population treble after the introduction of potatoes? Wouldn't that suggest standard crops were a problem (relatively speaking) before hand.

It's possible that the earliest kind of wheat may have been affected by moisture problems, but the archeological evidence nevertheless suggests that it was a common crop that helped boost the population during the Neolithic. And barley, peas and flax would have flourished. Widespread lactase persistence seems to have developed later.

As for potatoes, they seem to have been introduced to western Ireland by Spanish cod fishermen in the late 1500s, and were a boon to the Irish population, who had been driven off most of the land by English colonists. However, there were massive potato crop failures from 1845 to 1851, and millions of Irish starved to death or were forced to immigrate while English landlords continued to export meat and grain. If you want to learn something about Irish history, pick an author who isn't English.

 

[Aberdeen]

"what is the route on which they came in Ireland"

Quite. If you go back far enough everyone came from protozoa but it's the route in between that is interesting and for the reasons you describe that route was very unlikely to be directly from Anatolia.

Nobody is saying that Anatolians got into boats and sailed directly to Ireland. But there's plenty of evidence that the ancestors of early European farmers moved through Anatolia and the Balkans on their way to western Europe, and I believe some also migrated along the Mediterranean and Atlantic over the course of many generations.

 

[Angela]

^^I was just about to add that the title of this thread sounds like a news article that came out after one of the seminal genetics papers on this topic. It's not helpful, in my opinion, to spend an inordinate amount of time debating a journalist's uninformed and less than artfully expressed understanding of the movement of people from the Near East into Europe, a movement that brought a total transformation of subsistence strategies and culture, along with a massive infusion of genes.

 

[vigilantexplorer]

Skin color

If humans need vitamin D and you can get vitamin D through the skin *or* through diet then a population would only need to develop lighter skin if *both* conditions applied i.e. low UV region *and* not enough vitamin D in their diet.


The best source of dietary vitamin D is fish.

So people living in northern latitudes *away from the coast* might have had to develop lighter skin (nb lighter not necessarily light).

Early farmers would have had the same problem.

If different skin lightening genes developed among different populations and if people from those populations later mixed then they might get both sets i.e. one population might just have the farmer ones while another people has both the farmer ones and the interior HG ones.

vitamin d theory of light skin adaptaion to low uv to produce more vitamin d is debunked long ago

firstly light eyes and skin repel sunlight not attract it so pale skin does not produce any vitamin d

if light skin would produce more vitamin d these white children would not get a deficiency of vitamin d on a vegan(fishless, dairyless diet)!!! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1028854/How-strict-vegan-diet-children-ill.html

so again adaptation theory is debunked by real science, no light skin does not produce vitamin d light skinned people have usually much lower levels of vitamin d

oca2 is the only responsible for blue eyes blondism and fair skin it for sure never was an adaptation at all.

also brown eyes have better night vision this is why most nocturnal animals have dark eyes! there is even a study which confirmed blue eyes have no advantage in nightvision, you can google it! again all points to oca1b / oca2