Was E1b1 very first inhabitants in Europe 42,000 YPD?...or Saami U5 haplogroup?

[Angela]

All these studies point to G haplogroup males being in Europe a long time before E1b1b's and others showed up. The E1b1b skeleton was found among G haplogroup males. G's were the majority.

For all we know this E1b1b male was a refugee or someone who migrated from North Africa after Eurasians had already established settlements in North Africa. Could have arrived there via a trade route, caravan.

Oh, for goodness sakes, I've never heard such special pleading. You think it's a coincidence that there are all those hot spots of E-V13 in and around Greece and the Balkans?

We also have an E-V13 in Avellaner Cave in northeast Spain (Catalonia) in a Neolithic setting from 5,000 BC.
Marie Lacan et al from 2011:
http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.full

E-V13 and J2 were part of the Neolithic farmer migrations, ok? We don't know if M78, for example, reached Europe in the Mesolithic. It's possible, as it's probably old enough. We just don't know. We have an absolute dearth of Mesolithic and even Neolithic samples from southern Italy, Greece, the islands, etc.

In the latest phylogeny of "E", Trombetta and Cruciani et al , before these dna results were even released, hypothesized specifically that the E-V13 mutation took place in Europe.
http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2015/06/23/gbe.evv118.full.pdf+html

This is their estimate of it's TMRCA8.1kya '95% CI 5.6-10.8kya)
I'd say that's about spot on.

It also had to be pointed out to you that one of the tested Pharaoh mummies, that of Ramses III, was indeed "E"; in fact he was E1b1a.

I think you have some reading to do before you start arguing your points so vehemently and arrogantly.

 

[Garrick]

Oh, for goodness sakes, I've never heard such special pleading. You think it's a coincidence that there are all those hot spots of E-V13 in and around Greece and the Balkans?

We also have an E-V13 in Avellaner Cave in northeast Spain (Catalonia) in a Neolithic setting from 5,000 BC.
Marie Lacan et al from 2011:
http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.full

E-V13 and J2 were part of the Neolithic farmer migrations, ok? We don't know if M78, for example, reached Europe in the Mesolithic. It's possible, as it's probably old enough. We just don't know. We have an absolute dearth of Mesolithic and even Neolithic samples from southern Italy, Greece, the islands, etc.

In the latest phylogeny of "E", Trombetta and Cruciani et al , before these dna results were even released, hypothesized specifically that the E-V13 mutation took place in Europe.
http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2015/06/23/gbe.evv118.full.pdf+html

This is their estimate of it's TMRCA8.1kya '95% CI 5.6-10.8kya)
I'd say that's about spot on.

It also had to be pointed out to you that one of the tested Pharaoh mummies, that of Ramses III, was indeed "E"; in fact he was E1b1a.

I think you have some reading to do before you start arguing your points so vehemently and arrogantly.

According to Trombetta et al, 2015, page 13:

The TMRCA of E-V13 chromosomes (8.1kya;95% CI 5.6-10.8 kya) is consistent with a previous hypothesis about a post- Neolithic expansion of this haplogroup in Europe (Cruciani et al 2004; 2007).


It is consistent with Cruciani et al, 2007, Trombetta et al. say that it is consistent.

Cruciani et al, 2007:

The low E-V13 frequency (0.9%) and microsatellite variance (0.13) in northern Africa do not support an antiquity greater than in western Asia. Thus, the most parsimonious and plausible scenario is that E-V13 originated in western Asia about 11 ky ago, and its presence in northern Africa is the result of a more recent introgression. Under this hypothesis, E-V13 chromosomes sampled in western Asia and their coalescence estimate detect a likely Paleolithic exit out of Africa of E-M78 chromosomes devoid of the V13 mutation, which later occurred somewhere in the Near East/Anatolia.
...

Post neolithic expansion is not 42,000YPD. Which proofs the setter of thread give for 42,000YPD. No one. It is contrary to whole knowledge.

The thread is meaningless.

 

[Angela]

According to Trombetta et al, 2015, page 13:

The TMRCA of E-V13 chromosomes (8.1kya;95% CI 5.6-10.8 kya) is consistent with a previous hypothesis about a post- Neolithic expansion of this haplogroup in Europe (Cruciani et al 2004; 2007).


It is consistent with Cruciani et al, 2007, Trombetta et al. say that it is consistent.

Cruciani et al, 2007:

The low E-V13 frequency (0.9%) and microsatellite variance (0.13) in northern Africa do not support an antiquity greater than in western Asia. Thus, the most parsimonious and plausible scenario is that E-V13 originated in western Asia about 11 ky ago, and its presence in northern Africa is the result of a more recent introgression. Under this hypothesis, E-V13 chromosomes sampled in western Asia and their coalescence estimate detect a likely Paleolithic exit out of Africa of E-M78 chromosomes devoid of the V13 mutation, which later occurred somewhere in the Near East/Anatolia.
...

Post neolithic expansion is not 42,000YPD. Which proofs the setter of thread give for 42,000YPD. No one. It is contrary to whole knowledge.

The thread is meaningless.

Trombetta and Cruciani published their paper before the release of the Nagy paper showing through ancient DNA that, in fact, a definite E-M78 and a possible E-V13 had already made their way into the Lengyel and Sopot cultures by 4700 BC, which is at the transition from the Middle to Late Neolithic, not the Bronze Age. Obviously, that is an expansion from further south or south/east, unless you think they were helicoptered into those areas, or you indeed think they were already there in the Mesolithic.

You are coming dangerously close to posting deliberately obfuscating and misleading posts. Y DNA "E" and YDNA J2, for that matter, were in Europe in the NEOLITHIC.

Is it clear?

In addition, the location of E-M78 and E-V13 in areas that are very close to current hotspots for E-V13 is very suggestive indeed, to say the least.

Like it or lump it, whether it's what was taught in Serbian schools or not, those are the facts.

It's true, however, that there is no proof that yDna "E" was in Europe in the Mesolithic, much less 42,000 years ago, although E-M78 is just barely old enough to have possibly made it into Europe by around 22,000 BC. If we ever get remains from the Greek Islands in the Mesolithic, for example, or Crete, say, or the Dodecanese from that period, it will be very interesting to see what turns up.

 

[Garrick]

Trombetta and Cruciani published their paper before the release of the Nagy paper showing through ancient DNA that, in fact, a definite E-M78 and a possible E-V13 had already made their way into the Lengyel and Sopot cultures by 4700 BC, which is at the transition from the Middle to Late Neolithic, not the Bronze Age. Obviously, that is an expansion from further south or south/east, unless you think they were helicoptered into those areas, or you indeed think they were already there in the Mesolithic.

You are coming dangerously close to posting deliberately obfuscating and misleading posts. Y DNA "E" and YDNA J2, for that matter, were in Europe in the NEOLITHIC.

Is it clear?

In addition, the location of E-M78 and E-V13 in areas that are very close to current hotspots for E-V13 is very suggestive indeed, to say the least.

Like it or lump it, whether it's what was taught in Serbian schools or not, those are the facts.

It's true, however, that there is no proof that yDna "E" was in Europe in the Mesolithic, much less 42,000 years ago, although E-M78 is just barely old enough to have possibly made it into Europe by around 22,000 BC. If we ever get remains from the Greek Islands in the Mesolithic, for example, or Crete, say, or the Dodecanese from that period, it will be very interesting to see what turns up.

Angela, you can see from my older messages that I didn't accept that E-V13 came via Gibraltar, or by sea from Lybia (and I mostly don't accept sea paths in very old times). And it is logical that E-V13 found in middle Europe in the time 5,000-3,400 BC (Lengyel culture). But what this do with the thread and 42,000 years ago?

My opinion always is that E-V13 arrived from Near East/minor Asia, and I wrote about it more time.

And National Geographic thinks so:

 

[Sile]

Angela, you can see from my older messages that I didn't accept that E-V13 came via Gibraltar, or by sea from Lybia (and I mostly don't accept sea paths in very old times). And it is logical that E-V13 found in middle Europe in the time 5,000-3,400 BC (Lengyel culture). But what this do with the thread and 42,000 years ago?

My opinion always is that E-V13 arrived from Near East/minor Asia, and I wrote about it more time.

And National Geographic thinks so:

Natgeno3? next generation out on the 15th of October 2015

 

[Salmon]

Oh, for goodness sakes, I've never heard such special pleading. You think it's a coincidence that there are all those hot spots of E-V13 in and around Greece and the Balkans?

We also have an E-V13 in Avellaner Cave in northeast Spain (Catalonia) in a Neolithic setting from 5,000 BC.
Marie Lacan et al from 2011:
http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.full

E-V13 and J2 were part of the Neolithic farmer migrations, ok? We don't know if M78, for example, reached Europe in the Mesolithic. It's possible, as it's probably old enough. We just don't know. We have an absolute dearth of Mesolithic and even Neolithic samples from southern Italy, Greece, the islands, etc.

In the latest phylogeny of "E", Trombetta and Cruciani et al , before these dna results were even released, hypothesized specifically that the E-V13 mutation took place in Europe.
http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2015/06/23/gbe.evv118.full.pdf+html

This is their estimate of it's TMRCA8.1kya '95% CI 5.6-10.8kya)
I'd say that's about spot on.

It also had to be pointed out to you that one of the tested Pharaoh mummies, that of Ramses III, was indeed "E"; in fact he was E1b1a.

I think you have some reading to do before you start arguing your points so vehemently and arrogantly.

Trombetta study was done using DNA from living people, in modern times. They were using blood and swap samples. They were using living people. The claim is that E-V13 must have happened in Europe/Eurasia because E-V13 is rare in Africa. Possible but what if E-V13 developed in a part of Africa and moved to Europe because the population was displaced?

Ramesses 3 lived in 1155 BC and was not related to Ramesses the first or second. He existed in post-Neolothic times, over 1900 years after the founding of the Dynastic Egypt.

Egyptians were subjugating and displacing Africans for thousands of years by that time.

 

[Salmon]

-please delete this -

 

[Ike]

Trombetta and Cruciani published their paper before the release of the Nagy paper showing through ancient DNA that, in fact, a definite E-M78 and a possible E-V13 had already made their way into the Lengyel and Sopot cultures by 4700 BC, which is at the transition from the Middle to Late Neolithic, not the Bronze Age. Obviously, that is an expansion from further south or south/east, unless you think they were helicoptered into those areas, or you indeed think they were already there in the Mesolithic.

You are coming dangerously close to posting deliberately obfuscating and misleading posts. Y DNA "E" and YDNA J2, for that matter, were in Europe in the NEOLITHIC.

Is it clear?

When did possible become certain? Lets stick to the facts...

 

[Angela]

When did possible become certain? Lets stick to the facts...

It became certain and a FACT the day that samples from ancient bodies in a Neolithic context dated to 6800 BC* came out Y DNA J2 and E. Is that simple enough?

*6800 to 7000 years ago.

 

[Ike]

Ok, so possible E-V13 is now a certain E-V13. Gottcha.

 

[Salmon]

It became certain and a FACT the day that samples from ancient bodies in a Neolithic context dated to 6800 BC came out Y DNA J2 and E. Is that simple enough?

Weren't the 3 bodies from those 2 studies from 5000-3000 BC?

 

[Trojet]

Natgeno3? next generation out on the 15th of October 2015

Where did u get that info or do u have a source? I'm looking forward to this update of the geno chip as the current version is outdated, but haven't heard anything concrete...

 

[Sile]

Where did u get that info or do u have a source? I'm looking forward to this update of the geno chip as the current version is outdated, but haven't heard anything concrete...

its called

Introducing Geno 2.0 Next Generation - A Revolutionary Breakthrough


Will be available only in USA from October 2015 and early 2016 elsewhere. Price is just under $200US not inc freight

Geno 2.0 was 150K AIMs and the Geno 2.0 Next Gen is 750K SNP @$199,

http://shop.nationalgeographic.com/ngs/browse/productDetail.jsp?productId=2003825&gsk&MR21280

 

[Trojet]

its called

Introducing Geno 2.0 Next Generation - A Revolutionary Breakthrough


Will be available only in USA from October 2015 and early 2016 elsewhere. Price is just under $200US not inc freight

Geno 2.0 was 150K AIMs and the Geno 2.0 Next Gen is 750K SNP @$199,

http://shop.nationalgeographic.com/ngs/browse/productDetail.jsp?productId=2003825&gsk&MR21280

Thanks, but that's still NatGeo Geno 2.0 which has been available since 2012 and it still can be ordered. I thought you were talking about NatGeo Geno 3.0

Either way I hope that the next Geno chip (Geno 3.0 or whatever they call it) is on the way. Hopefully the October 2015 date turns out to be correct

 

[Angela]

Weren't the 3 bodies from those 2 studies from 5000-3000 BC?

Nagy provides dates on p. 59 of her dissertation.
http://d-nb.info/1072530740/34

Sopot Culture-5,000 to 4800 cal BC

Lengyel Culture-5,000 to 4300 cal BC

Therefore, the post should have said 6800 years ago (or 7,000 years ago), not 6800 BC. I will edit the post.

 

[Sile]

Thanks, but that's still NatGeo Geno 2.0 which has been available since 2012 and it still can be ordered. I thought you were talking about NatGeo Geno 3.0

Either way I hope that the next Geno chip (Geno 3.0 or whatever they call it) is on the way. Hopefully the October 2015 date turns out to be correct

call it version 3 or next gen matters little , they give you results for all your positive and all your negative SNP, they do not only supply you with positive SNP results like all other testers.

i still do not need to test a new snp found for the last year ........., i just check my natgeno2 results and then advise ftdna in writing, that i was already tested positive or negative for that snp and since i have already transferred results to ftdna , please update ftdna...........which they do , they have no choice.

so from the old 150k SNP to 750k SNP ................it is big