Suspicious loanwords between IE and Turkic

[Alan]

Excluding all linguistic viewpoints, I think that Central Asian Turkic peoples have preserved much better the steppe traditions than for example Western Europeans who are permeated by Mediterranean culture and whatever remains there are of proto-European cultures in Europe.

PIE were never a pred. steppic people to begin with. They were a mountainous people for most. Only the Indo_Iranian branch turned into steppic/mountainous mixed livestyle.

 

[Kristiina]

Let’s have a closer look at the word ”sky” in IE, Altaic and Uralic languages:
Sky

IE
Slovenian: nebó
Polish: niebo
Russian: nébo
Lithuanian: dangus
Latvian: debesis
Icelandic: himinn, loft, ský
German: Himmel
Dutch: hemel
English: sky; heaven
Irish: neamh, spéir
Welsh: ffurfafen, nwyfre, wybr
Breton: oabl; neñv
Albanian: qiell
Latin: caelum
Spanish: cielo
French: ciel
Romanian: cer
Greek: ouranos
Armenian: yerkink’
Pashto: āsmān, džanat
Persian: džav, âsmân
Avestan: ashan, asma
Sanskrit: ākāśa, dyauḥ, didyu, diva, abhra, āṣṭra, bahula, citra, drāpa, soma, go, ha, sairibha, stīrvi, ūma, pṛṣṭha

URALIC
Erzya: menel
Mari: kavá, pəlpóməš
Finnish: taivas
Estonian: taevas
Saami: albmi
Hungarian: eg, menny
Udmurt: in, inbam (
Komi: jenvevt
Nenets: num’’ (nūmʔ)
Selkup: nom, nuvın syynd'ı
Nganasan: ŋúo

TURKIC
Turkish: gök, sema
Chuvash: pələt, tüpe
Bashkir: kük
Uygur: asman
Tuvinian: dēr
Yakut: hallān

Mongol: tenger
Nanai: afqa, apqa
Manchu: abqa
Korean: hanǔl
Japanese: sora, ten

I see a lot of local development everywhere. Moreover, if *dyeus means god in proto-IE, it is even funny that a related word is a standard word for sky in Estonian and Finnish.

 

[arvistro]

Google wiktionary and taevas

 

[Kristiina]

I know the etymology of the word taivas and I am also aware of Germanic connections. However, my point is that it is somewhat funny that Finns and Estonians would have started using an expression like "Oh, there are many birds flying in the juppiter" or "look how blue the deus is!", if you allow me to use an English - Latin analogy.

 

[arvistro]

Well Dievs etimologically comes from Sky (wiktionary Dievs).

 

[Kristiina]

Yes, the word must have passed into Finnic languages when it primarily meant "sky", and among IE languages Sanskrit word "diva" seams to mean day and sky and not god, while Lithuanian and Latvian use other words in the meaning of sky. So, IMO it must have been adopted quite early.

 

[Alpakut]

Based on what?

Haplogroup N.

Are you suggesting that the Yamna Culture was Turkic (or Altaic?). Because that one makes no sense at all. The Yamna Culture is way too old, and way too far in the west for that to work out. As an example, the Yamna people certainly didn't have iron. Why would the Turkic languages have a common word for "iron"? :disappointed:

The Yamna people didn't have iron for good reason :wary2: They didn't lived in the Iron_Age :embarassed: I believe that a proto-Turkic substrate was already present among the Yamna people.

I'm a fence sitter there. I'm not entirely convinced that the Proto-Indo-European *dyeus and the Turkic "tengri" are related (even if the names are similar), but if there's a relationship, then the borrowing is from early Indo-European into Altaic (maybe from early Tocharian?). As I stated, Proto-Indo-European is the older language family (as I stated, the Turkic languages can be much better compared with the Germanic and Romance languages, in terms of relative age, and in terms of mutual similarity).

It's not long since I read that there were even some daydreamers in the past who tried to define both Turkic Tengri and Chinese Tian as an IE loan word. Of course this is not possible, not least due to etymological reasons. Tengri and Tian are too old to be loaned.

 

[RobertColumbia]

Eng. earth, swe. jord - tur. yurt

I guess earth and jord are derivatives of each other. Meaning of yurt is "the place of residency" or "homeland" in Turkic. The main reasoning is that earth, meaning soil, is a place of residency and land is earth.

Eng. sea, proto-gem. saiwaz, dum. see - tur. su

Su means water.

The ones that got my attention so far.

One interesting thing to consider is that Germanic speakers have historically spoken of the place of humanity as not just earth, but Middle Earth, i.e. Midgard, Midhgardhr (Old Norse), Middungeard (Old English), etc. Is there a parallel concept in any Turkic language?

 

[Alpakut]

One interesting thing to consider is that Germanic speakers have historically spoken of the place of humanity as not just earth, but Middle Earth, i.e. Midgard, Midhgardhr (Old Norse), Middungeard (Old English), etc. Is there a parallel concept in any Turkic language?

in our Kazakh tradition it is said that between earth and sky the human being (Är kishi) was created. do you mean something like this? this is very common also in many other world mythologies.

 

[MOESAN]

Let’s have a closer look at the word ”sky” in IE, Altaic and Uralic languages:
Sky

IE
Slovenian: nebó
Polish: niebo
Russian: nébo
Irish: neamh /ne~:v//ne~:w/?, spéir
Welsh: ffurfafen, nwyfre, wybr + NEF /ne:v/
Breton: oabl; neñv /ne~:w/
URALIC
Nenets: num’’ (nūmʔ)
Selkup: nom, nuvın syynd'ı
Nganasan: ŋúo

.

I added some proxi of pronouciation - the celtic forms with nasalisation (present or past) suppose a form: *NEM- a bit different from *NEB- (italic) for "cloud" french "nuée", "nébuleux" ..) what doesn't exclude a common root - the meaning shift between "sky" and "god" is not so surprising. What surprised me is the proximity with some Uralic words... Thanks for a lot of words I ignored;

 

[RobertColumbia]

You know, Turkish is actually a language (and its called that way in English), while Turkic denotes the language family....

Right. This is the same thing happening with the difference between German (a language) and Germanic (a language family that contains German as well as several other languages such as English), Italian (a language) and Italic (a language family), as well as Slovak, Slovenian, and Slavonic (individual languages) and Slavic (a language family). Many other language families do not have this potentially confusing naming feature. For example, no Celtic language has a name that sounds confusingly similar to Celtic, and there are no Semitic languages whose names (at least in English) sound confusingly similar to Semitic.

 

[RobertColumbia]

in our Kazakh tradition it is said that between earth and sky the human being (Är kishi) was created. do you mean something like this? this is very common also in many other world mythologies.

Yes, I think so. The Germanic concept of "Middle Earth" dates from far earlier than Tolkien, being recorded at least as early as the seventh century and quite likely pre-dating that by a significant amount of time. It is very possible that the concept could have come from a shared PIE/Turkic source.

 

[RobertColumbia]

I don't think he is Haplo P-M45 he just list it that way. If he is, he could be so kind and show us the results from the company by blacking his name.

Like this as example.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6224&d=1391459801

What would he have to gain by falsifying his haplogroup? It's not like there are any haplogroup police around here going around and busting "wannabe" haplogroup holders, and that's because having a specific HG doesn't provide any specific benefit - they are what they are, even if they are R (pun intended).

 

[RobertColumbia]

Eng. earth, swe. jord - tur. yurt

I guess earth and jord are derivatives of each other. Meaning of yurt is "the place of residency" or "homeland" in Turkic. The main reasoning is that earth, meaning soil, is a place of residency and land is earth....

In Kurdish "earth" means "erd". But I heard that the term earth/erde/erd might be a Semitic loanword into Indo European.

"erd" means earth, but "akh" means land/ground/soil

In Hebrew (a Semitic language), the word אָ֫רֶץ (erets) means "earth". There could be something interesting here. Maybe there really is a loanword here. In Hebrew, it can mean the physical planet Earth, a specific territory, or can be used specifically to refer to Israel.

The idea of a word meaning both planet Earth as well as a specific territory that is implied via context or expressed directly is found elsewhere too. This is a feature of Spanish's word "tierra" (from Latin "terra"). For example, La Tierra can refer to the whole planet, while the word can also be used in place names like "Tierra del Fuego" (literally "Land of the Fire", more poetically "Land of Fire" or "Fireland") in South America.

 

[Alpakut]

In Hebrew (a Semitic language), the word אָ֫רֶץ (erets) means "earth". There could be something interesting here. Maybe there really is a loanword here. In Hebrew, it can mean the physical planet Earth, a specific territory, or can be used specifically to refer to Israel.

A different example

Hebrew "Torah" (תּוֹרָה) (“instruction, law or teaching”)
Old Turkic törü ("custom, law, statute, tradition")

Is it just me who sees it?

 

[arghyn]

Hi everyone

 

[LeBrok]

Welcome to Eupedia arghyn.

 

[arghyn]

Thank you LeBrok!

 

[RobertColumbia]

...
4. Ocean ~ ozen (means river tho, maybe coz we are very far from any ocean)...

This sort of language drift happens all the time, even between IE languages. For example, Spanish mar (ocean or sea) corresponds to English mere, which is a poetic term meaning lake.

 

[Foxhall]

I don't think it's more than a coincidence. Compare Arabic 'sittah' and 'sab'ah', Hebrew 'shesh' and 'sheva' to French 'six' and 'sept' and German 'sechs' and 'sieben'.