Bones of Macedonian King Philip II, Alexander the Great's father, have been found.

[Yetos]

debate has to do with democracy, and in democracy we learn to accept others opinion, as long as it stated, well based, and possible,
if an opinion is not stable, or not scientific based, then is not debate, it is faith

preaching faith, is not a scientific method, cause science accept mistakes, and is using tools to prove the accepted,
Faith is absolute, correct or mistaken.

many times I felt in such situation,.
to make my dogma science? or to accept science and reject my faith,

simply faith is not science,
and faith is tricky, and must be excluded in judging (crisis from critising, κριτικη)


we can all be Jihand when our faith is insulted,
but non of us becomes Jihand when our science is insulted,
Why?

 

[Yetos]

nothing ...............

 

[Yetos]

Yes, according Oliver Masson based on Pella tablet Macedonian was North West Greek dialect.

Macedonians were Greeks.

And it is interesting that one of woman of Filip II was Scythian.

It is science.

Hmm, it does not fit in propaganda of Enver Hoxha type:

Alexander the Great was Illyrian ^ Illyrians were Albanians => Alexander the Great was Albanian

...
But. Maybe Illyrians are also Scythians and same as Albanians? Perhaps this hypothesis make sense.

If albanians where scythians , then the scythians arrived around the time of Phillip II , which would mean the sarmatians are not pure scythians ( maybe only a percentage) and that the bastanae would be part scythian and part germanic.
IIRC , the bastanae sent 80000 men, women and children to aid the macedonians against their wars against the illyrians coming the north-east.

hmmm

intersting case,

solves a lot of our questions

 

[Yetos]

No. There exist DNA repair mechanisms in biochemistry & genetics, which can repair damaged DNA; for example BER (Base excision repair), DNA polymerases(for long patches or short patches), lygases... As far I can remember, I was working on the DNA polymerase. I extracted the DNA out (from a fruit (banana ;D) and then used DNA polymerase with a special machine..., then I've added the 10% iodine dilution & observed the chromatid entanglement under the microscope...

Any idea how much can recover?

in vergina tomps we have bones, not ashes,
ok we consider bones as the dry stereo fragments, but how much?
outside the are the calciumm phosphates, but how much could left inside?

we speak about an open cremation above woods, and bones gathered and washed, not smashed,
different than modern cremation in a machine,
ok sulfur and carbon get evaporized as gases,
but could inside the bones small amounts be left? μυελος των οστων, bone myelic traces?


ok I know that DNA can not be exctrat after cremation, I agree with 'No'
but I wonder why they ask permission to do DNA tests?

 

[Maleth]

No. There exist DNA repair mechanisms in biochemistry & genetics, which can repair damaged DNA; for example BER (Base excision repair), DNA polymerases(for long patches or short patches), lygases... As far I can remember, I was working on the DNA polymerase. I extracted the DNA out (from a fruit (banana ;D) and then used DNA polymerase with a special machine..., then I've added the 10% iodine dilution & observed the chromatid entanglement under the microscope...

Thank you for the info Verdun. That sounds interesting. I asked the question because a friend of mine contacted a local well qualified coordinator (from the University of Belfast) that is working on the local Megalithic Temples, enquring about dna testing on the bones found on site were no dna has been taken yet.

The reply was that the reason for not having any DNA tests is because the method till now is not well enough advanced to deal with material from anything other than cooler climates. She also mentioned that DNA is very susceptible to change and decay, and is unreliable in warm climates, hence no ancient DNA from places south of the Alps. She also mentioned that things are changing and a possible breakthrough in methods will allow the team many questions we have (generally speaking). Checking diets is far more reliable then DNA to know from which other populations the temple builders came from (in the local case).

However my question is if this was true how come we have dna results of 7000 yr old skeletons found in warmer climates? (!) Sorry Im deviating a little but its also in relation to this subject.

 

[Maleth]

but could inside the bones small amounts be left? μυελος των οστων, bone myelic traces?
ok I know that DNA can not be exctrat after cremation,
but I wonder why they ask permission to do DNA tests?

I read somewhere that the teeth COULD be the most reliable source of DNA in this type of cremations. If not mistaken some types of dna tests have been done even after cremation. The subject is a little confusing, maybe some experts can give a little more light on the subject, and how reliable the whole process is.

 

[Vedun]

As far I know the best preservation occures indeed in the teeth; bones are generally good isolators from the environment around them (water, micro organisms, fungi, insects). When cells break apart after death, the inner content comes out... majority of these substances later mold into the minerals in the bone; hydroxyapatite in the bone (which is produced by Osteocytes - bone cells).
As far I know from my lectures of Human Anatomy & Physiology, I would suggest for your DNA extraction from teeth and from the irregularly shaped bones or flat bones(for example: pelvis, sternum, skull, ribs, spine and blade), because there exist 2 types of red and yellow bone marrow. Red marrow has more cells than yellow marrow... When we are born the red bone marrow prevails, when we grow up (ends when we are about 18 years old) there is bellow 50% of red bone marrow in a mature man or woman, which is replaced by the yellow marrow, which is "yellow" because of the fat... How ever yellow bone marrow can in accidents (bone fractures, bleeding around the bone area) transforms itself into a red bone marrow; I believe we can study or detect fractures and bleeding (if the person for example died because of bleeding) under microscopic, chemical analysis of the marrow...

DNA will be destroyed also because of the temperatures around them... We know that proteins in human body start to coagulate already above 42 degrees Celsius, DNA starts to break apart around the 42,5 degrees Celsius(Phosphates) also; Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine, Thymine around 316-360 degrees Celsius, Deoxyribose (sugar) around 90 degrees, Phosphates around 42,4 degrees..((that's why is the human temperature so important for normal life (biological) functions bellow 41 degrees, otherwise we die (start falling apart)...So, there is a better preservation of your DNA in more cooler climates than in tropical areas...
there exist 2 types of DNA in our cells; mtDNA or mDNA which is located in your mitochondria (which is also called "maternal DNA"; inherited from the mother) and the DNA from the Y chromosome, which is also called "paternal", because it is inherited from fathers to sons...


mDNA is better protected than Y DNA, because it is already surrounded & protected by the more "thicker" membrane or mitochondrial membrane, matrix & Lakunes (special structures in the mitochondria organelles)... Mitochondria in our cells is the indication/proof of archaic symbiosis & evolution of 2 different cells; one microorganism (cell) which penetrated into other cell & both have had benefits from each other...

PS: You gave me an idea to study the partially destroyed DNA because of temperatures...and perhaps make some qualitative tests out of it...

- Some articles about the isolation & analysis of the ancient DNA:

http://szd.si/user_files/vsebina/Zdravniski_Vestnik/2011/marec/171-81.pdf

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/cmulligan/webpage/methodsenzymology.pdf

 

[Sennevini]

So Philippos remains were found cremated; are those of the woman cremated too?

 

[Maleth]

So Philippos remains were found cremated; are those of the woman cremated too?

article says 'Along with the cremated remains of Philip II, the burial, commonly known as Tomb II, also contained the bones of a woman warrior, possibly the daughter of the Skythian King Athea' although not clearly put, I presume it was cremated too.

 

[Maleth]

As far I know the best preservation occures indeed in the teeth; bones are generally good isolators from the environment around them (water, micro organisms, fungi, insects). When cells break apart after death, the inner content comes out... majority of these substances later mold into the minerals in the bone; hydroxyapatite in the bone (which is produced by Osteocytes - bone cells).
As far I know from my lectures of Human Anatomy & Physiology, I would suggest for your DNA extraction from teeth and from the irregularly shaped bones or flat bones(for example: pelvis, sternum, skull, ribs, spine and blade), because there exist 2 types of red and yellow bone marrow. Red marrow has more cells than yellow marrow... When we are born the red bone marrow prevails, when we grow up (ends when we are about 18 years old) there is bellow 50% of red bone marrow in a mature man or woman, which is replaced by the yellow marrow, which is "yellow" because of the fat... How ever yellow bone marrow can in accidents (bone fractures, bleeding around the bone area) transforms itself into a red bone marrow; I believe we can study or detect fractures and bleeding (if the person for example died because of bleeding) under microscopic, chemical analysis of the marrow...

DNA will be destroyed also because of the temperatures around them... We know that proteins in human body start to coagulate already above 42 degrees Celsius, DNA starts to break apart around the 42,5 degrees Celsius(Phosphates) also; Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine, Thymine around 316-360 degrees Celsius, Deoxyribose (sugar) around 90 degrees, Phosphates around 42,4 degrees..((that's why is the human temperature so important for normal life (biological) functions bellow 41 degrees, otherwise we die (start falling apart)...So, there is a better preservation of your DNA in more cooler climates than in tropical areas...
there exist 2 types of DNA in our cells; mtDNA or mDNA which is located in your mitochondria (which is also called "maternal DNA"; inherited from the mother) and the DNA from the Y chromosome, which is also called "paternal", because it is inherited from fathers to sons...


mDNA is better protected than Y DNA, because it is already surrounded & protected by the more "thicker" membrane or mitochondrial membrane, matrix & Lakunes (special structures in the mitochondria organelles)... Mitochondria in our cells is the indication/proof of archaic symbiosis & evolution of 2 different cells; one microorganism (cell) which penetrated into other cell & both have had benefits from each other...

PS: You gave me an idea to study the partially destroyed DNA because of temperatures...and perhaps make some qualitative tests out of it...

- Some articles about the isolation & analysis of the ancient DNA:

http://szd.si/user_files/vsebina/Zdravniski_Vestnik/2011/marec/171-81.pdf

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/cmulligan/webpage/methodsenzymology.pdf

Thanks for that info and links Verdun. You surely are well informed. Your experiment sounds interesting and let us know how it goes.

I am still wondering though what method does Marie Lacan (example) use? she had results from some locations in the south of Europe, while others claim that from the alps downwards its too risky to have correct results with ancient dna (!). Who is right and who is wrong? I wont comment on DNA extracted from Egyptian mummies because those were much better preserved.

 

[Dianatomia]

It would be great if they could test Philip's genome as well as his Scythian wife (Alexander's mother). This way we could get Alexander's two haplogroups and infer his autosomal composition.

Alexander's mother was not Scythian. The Scythian woman was another wife of Philip. He had several wives.
Alexander's mother, Olympias, was from a Molossian tribe from Epirus, which was a Greek tribal state.

I didn't know that Philip had a Scythian wive. In any case, would be interesting to find out about Philips haplogroup.

 

[King Bardhyl]

Alexander's mother was not Scythian. The Scythian woman was another wife of Philip. He had several wives.
Alexander's mother, Olympias, was from a Molossian tribe from Epirus, which was a Greek tribal state.
I didn't know that Philip had a Scythian wive. In any case, would be interesting to find out about Philips haplogroup.

Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn (February 26, 1869 – November 7, 1957) was a British classical scholar and a writer. He wrote extensively on the Hellenistic world, particularly on Alexander the Great.
"Alexander certainly had from his father (Philip II) and probably from his mother (Olympia) Illyrian, i.e., Albanian, blood."

Who told you that Molossoi were Greek tribe? Wikipedia?

Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn, of the British Academy, regarded worldwide as having written the definitive work on Alexander the Great, states in the opening paragraph of his book Alexander the Great that “Alexander certainly had from his father (Philip II) and probably from his mother (Olymbia) Illyrian, i.e. Albanian, blood!”*

 

[Dianatomia]

Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn (February 26, 1869 – November 7, 1957) was a British classical scholar and a writer. He wrote extensively on the Hellenistic world, particularly on Alexander the Great.
"Alexander certainly had from his father (Philip II) and probably from his mother (Olympia) Illyrian, i.e., Albanian, blood."

Who told you that Molossoi were Greek tribe? Wikipedia?

Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn, of the British Academy, regarded worldwide as having written the definitive work on Alexander the Great, states in the opening paragraph of his book Alexander the Great that “Alexander certainly had from his father (Philip II) and probably from his mother (Olymbia) Illyrian, i.e. Albanian, blood!”*

Wikipedia, Brittanica. Anything of the like will do. It is basically common knowledge that Ancient Epirus was inhabited by Greek speakers since the Neolthic. There are always counter opinions in history I suppose. Especially when nationalism gets mixed in.

Anyway, Sir William Woodthorpe has a nice hypothesis. But it is mostly fair speculation of his time. In the early 20th century historians had rather limited evidence regarding the Ancient Macedonians. There's been many excavations since, continuing to this day. Image is getting pretty clear about their Greekness.
You never know though. Maybe Alexander had some Illyrian blood too, maybe Thracian, maybe Hittite. Who is to say for sure?

 

[Yetos]

Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn (February 26, 1869 – November 7, 1957) was a British classical scholar and a writer. He wrote extensively on the Hellenistic world, particularly on Alexander the Great.
"Alexander certainly had from his father (Philip II) and probably from his mother (Olympia) Illyrian, i.e., Albanian, blood."

Who told you that Molossoi were Greek tribe? Wikipedia?

Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn, of the British Academy, regarded worldwide as having written the definitive work on Alexander the Great, states in the opening paragraph of his book Alexander the Great that “Alexander certainly had from his father (Philip II) and probably from his mother (Olymbia) Illyrian, i.e. Albanian, blood!”*

from probably to certain is far dinstance,

besides soon we know, surely in the next 5-10 years,

see you then Lazar... back to Marlok

mire sevini Δερβιτσανη


ΑΥΤΟΧΘΟΝΕΣ a Greek word autochthonos

ΑΥΤΟΧΘΟΝΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΑΡΧΕΓΟΝΟΣ ΕΛΛΑΣ

guess who?

 

[King Bardhyl]

Wikipedia, Brittanica. Anything of the like will do. It is basically common knowledge that Ancient Epirus was inhabited by Greek speakers since the Neolthic. There are always counter opinions in history I suppose. Especially when nationalism gets mixed in.

Anyway, Sir William Woodthorpe has a nice hypothesis. But it is mostly fair speculation of his time. In the early 20th century historians had rather limited evidence regarding the Ancient Macedonians. There's been many excavations since, continuing to this day. Image is getting pretty clear about their Greekness.
You never know though. Maybe Alexander had some Illyrian blood too, maybe Thracian, maybe Hittite. Who is to say for sure?

Why you do not open a thread about Epir and let`s discuss there. But with one condition, to make a civilized discussion, no nationalism. Ok?

He also researched extensively on the history of the Greco-Bactrians and Indo-Greeks, thereby documenting a nearly lost area of history. In his book The Greeks in Bactria and India, Tarn relied on classical Western and Indian sources, as well as numismatics, to give a multi-faceted account of their dynastic rule and conquest.

I don`t think that Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn was a speculator.
About ancient macedonian i have expressed my opinion here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ical-discoverie-in-Makedonian-tomps-off-topic

 

[Dianatomia]

Why you do not open a thread about Epir and let`s discuss there. But with one condition, to make a civilized discussion, no nationalism. Ok?

He also researched extensively on the history of the Greco-Bactrians and Indo-Greeks, thereby documenting a nearly lost area of history. In his book The Greeks in Bactria and India, Tarn relied on classical Western and Indian sources, as well as numismatics, to give a multi-faceted account of their dynastic rule and conquest.

I don`t think that Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn was a speculator.
About ancient macedonian i have expressed my opinion here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ical-discoverie-in-Makedonian-tomps-off-topic

There´s too many junk about these kind of topics all over the internet. I hate to start another one about Epirus.

As for Sir William Woodthorpe, ofcourse he speculates. Historians, good or bad, speculate to fill in the missing dots. I argue that he would have had a different opinion today regarding the Macedonians. As a good historian, he would follow the evidence.

 

[motzart]

They definitely have Phillip's bones because extensive analysis has been done on the injuries he suffered, I don't think this would have been possible from a bunch of ashes.

 

[Maleth]

They definitely have Phillip's bones because extensive analysis has been done on the injuries he suffered, I don't think this would have been possible from a bunch of ashes.

The article clearly states that they are cremated remains. Do not confuse current cremation practice where a dead body is turned to ashes (including bones). The burning of the dead body would leave lots of bones (harder to burn completely). They used to put the remains in caskets or urns and put offerings with them with some kind of burial ritual.

Modern cremation is turning the whole body into ash. During the process (since DNA is our interest) would have been highly damaged during the cremation process, even if bone pieces are still visible (and not turned to ash)