Hellens or Romei?

[Gorgonzola]

i do not see about religion,
the irish monks speak about language

I don't see where they mentioned language.

I think we are walking around the bush here. Durres, previously Epidamnos, was founded by Greeks and there was also a Greek presence there until the late Middle ages.

There is no evidence of greeks living in Durres in the middle ages, but on the other side we have alot of albanian principalities in the entire area of epirus, thats why the second name for the albanians at the time became Epirotes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_principalities

The Byzantine Greeks never referred to other Orthodox non-Greek speaking peoples as Greek/Romios. Could you offer a source where it says that Albanian speakers were referred to as Greeks?

Yes of course. (Ch. Kohler, Recueil des historiens des Croiades, Paris 1906, vol. II, p. 487.)
(V. Tapkova-Zaimova, Lâ idee byzantine de lâ unite du monde et lâ Etat Bulgare,Sofia 1966, p. 228.)
(K.Fasheri Etnogjeneza e popullit shqiptar)
(The History of Greece: From Its Conquest by the Crusaders to Its Conquest by the Turks, and of the Empire of Trebizond: 1204-1461-George Finlay)

In the last book it also shows the ones who used the name illyrians for the albanians in the middle ages (Mazaris ;George Pachymeres ;Nicephorus Gregoras.etc) but also macedonians (Chalcocondylas).
You se that the name was not really important as even though albanoi,albanite was standart there were used other names by different authors.

 

[Yetos]

I don't see where they mentioned language.

”Inhabitatur enim Latinis, Grecis, Judeis perfidis, et barbaris Albanensibus”

correct GREEKS lived in Dyrrachion
not only speak but live,

There is no evidence of greeks living in Durres in the middle ages,

1322 AD GREEK LIVED IN DYRRACHIUM AND WERE SECOND MOST POPPULAR COMMUNITY AFTER AROMANI or ITALIANS (LATINS)

except f you believe that 1322 is not middle ages,

1 century before kastrioti
and after kastrioti no Greek there, why?
ask the sons of Vallavan Pasha.

 

[Dianatomia]

There is no evidence of greeks living in Durres in the middle ages, but on the other side we have alot of albanian principalities in the entire area of epirus, thats why the second name for the albanians at the time became Epirotes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_principalities



Yes of course. (Ch. Kohler, Recueil des historiens des Croiades, Paris 1906, vol. II, p. 487.)
(V. Tapkova-Zaimova, Lâ idee byzantine de lâ unite du monde et lâ Etat Bulgare,Sofia 1966, p. 228.)
(K.Fasheri Etnogjeneza e popullit shqiptar)
(The History of Greece: From Its Conquest by the Crusaders to Its Conquest by the Turks, and of the Empire of Trebizond: 1204-1461-George Finlay)

In the last book it also shows the ones who used the name illyrians for the albanians in the middle ages (Mazaris ;George Pachymeres ;Nicephorus Gregoras.etc) but also macedonians (Chalcocondylas).
You se that the name was not really important as even though albanoi,albanite was standart there were used other names by different authors.

There is a full view of the first book online here: http://books.google.nl/books?id=WUA...il des historiens des Croisades Vol 2&f=false

I can't seem to find anything on Albanian speakers being referred to as Greeks. Perhaps you can be more specific.

On a side note, a good a reference on the topic is the Byzantine Greek historian Michael Attaleiates. He was the first historian (1043) to have ever referred to Albanians (albanoi). The context is interesting. According to him Arbanitai were the subjects of the Duke of Dyrrachium which was under control by the Byzantine Greeks. It is clear there was at least a Greek oligarchy in Durres in the late middle ages.

 

[Gorgonzola]

1322 AD GREEK LIVED IN DYRRACHIUM AND WERE SECOND MOST POPPULAR COMMUNITY AFTER AROMANI or ITALIANS (LATINS)

except f you believe that 1322 is not middle ages,

1 century before kastrioti
and after kastrioti no Greek there, why?
ask the sons of Vallavan Pasha.

I don't need to ask noone, everything that i wrote here is referenced from the books i gave.Durres has always been inhabited by the albanians, stop making up statistics.
The albanians at the time even had principalities in the entire area of Epirus.

 

[Dianatomia]

I don't need to ask noone, everything that i wrote here is referenced from the books i gave.Durres has always been inhabited by the albanians, stop making up statistics.
The albanians at the time even had principalities in the entire area of Epirus.

The issue at hand here is Durres and whether there were Greeks living there as the quotes of the monks indicate. In medieval times there were many very short lived principalities in the central Balkans. In general terms though the despotate of Epirus where most of Albania was part of was in Byzantine Greek hands. But also Serbs and Italians managed to rule it for a while, after it was conquered by the Turks.

 

[Yetos]

I don't need to ask noone, everything that i wrote here is referenced from the books i gave.Durres has always been inhabited by the albanians, stop making up statistics.
The albanians at the time even had principalities in the entire area of Epirus.

When before Vallavan pasha or after?

 

[trdbr1234]

To add one more thing, Albanian speakers of Greece were called Greeks before 1500, and speakers of Kione were called Romei. How the powers that be can just change history!

 

[Sakattack]

To add one more thing, Albanian speakers of Greece were called Greeks before 1500, and speakers of Kione were called Romei. How the powers that be can just change history!

Not true.

Be aware that at that period of time (Ottoman Rule) the inhabitants of Greece did not distinguish from each other ethnically, but in terms of religion - in most cases - and in terms of class. So we have Christians and Muslims, peasants and lords (with many names).

Linguistically, we have 3 languages: greek (for the majority), turkish (for the rulers/archons and their families - even though that many were speaking greek) and arvanite for the arvanite communities. People that had contacts for professional or other reasons with all of them, usually were able to use all the languages. Was not uncommon. Only if they were about to refer to each other by this quality (not the issue in most cases), they used the terms Romioi (Ρωμιοί), Arvanites (Αρβανίτες) and Turks (Τούρκοι). But was not really common.

All of the peasants (greek speaking, arvanite speaking and even turkish speaking) were usually called with the derogatory adj rayas (ραγιάς).

Later on, after the Greek enlightenment, the word Hellene (Έλληνας) started to get in use and was referring to all of the non Muslim population. That of course include the Arvanites, but not the Muslim Arvanites, who were called Turkalbanians (Τουρκαλβανοί).

 

[trdbr1234]

Not true.

Be aware that at that period of time (Ottoman Rule) the inhabitants of Greece did not distinguish from each other ethnically, but in terms of religion - in most cases - and in terms of class. So we have Christians and Muslims, peasants and lords (with many names).

Linguistically, we have 3 languages: greek (for the majority), turkish (for the rulers/archons and their families - even though that many were speaking greek) and arvanite for the arvanite communities. People that had contacts for professional or other reasons with all of them, usually were able to use all the languages. Was not uncommon. Only if they were about to refer to each other by this quality (not the issue in most cases), they used the terms Romioi (Ρωμιοί), Arvanites (Αρβανίτες) and Turks (Τούρκοι). But was not really common.

All of the peasants (greek speaking, arvanite speaking and even turkish speaking) were usually called with the derogatory adj rayas (ραγιάς).

Later on, after the Greek enlightenment, the word Hellene (Έλληνας) started to get in use and was referring to all of the non Muslim population. That of course include the Arvanites, but not the Muslim Arvanites, who were called Turkalbanians (Τουρκαλβανοί).

Just to be correct, by Greek speaking you mean Kione speaking. Before 1800, the Kione have historically been known as Romei. This is un-disputable! However, Albanians were also known as Greeks, Epirotans, Macedonians, Albanians, and such. All these names were interchangeably used to describe Albanian speakers. The Serbian Empire was a union of Serbs and Greeks to counter Bulgarian and Byzantine influences. (remember the Kione were still known as Romei here and were heirs of the Byzantines). It is also known that Albanians were one of the most powerful people in this region at the time supplying European militaries as well as local rulers with men. In addition, Albanian refugees in Italy and abroad were known as Greeks! Their settlements were known as Greek settlements! Theres also some studies being done now that are studying some of the early Ottoman archives. Theyre indicating that not only traditional Arvanite settlements but the entirety of Peloponnese was Albanian speaking before and just after Ottoman conquest.

 

[Sakattack]

Just to be correct, by Greek speaking you mean Kione speaking.

No, i mean Modern Greek. Not even Medieval Greek, which was spoken some centuries prior to that, up to 1500s.

Koine Greek, which you falsely mentioned, was their predecessor and was spoken till circa 300AD.

Before 1800, the Kione have historically been known as Romei. This is un-disputable!

No. Was either Koine Greek, either Greek. It's speakers were called Romii (Ρωμιοί) at some periods, which was the synonym of Greek (Γραικός). The term Hellene (Έλληνας), as I told you, was not in use after 400AD and was only referring to non Christian Greeks prior to that and after the raise of Christianity. This was the reason that was abandoned actually...

However, Albanians were also known as Greeks, Epirotans, Macedonians, Albanians, and such. All these names were interchangeably used to describe Albanian speakers.

No. Absolutely not, sorry. Check your sources and my previous post.

The Serbian Empire was a union of Serbs and Greeks to counter Bulgarian and Byzantine influences. (remember the Kione were still known as Romei here and were heirs of the Byzantines). It is also known that Albanians were one of the most powerful people in this region at the time supplying European militaries as well as local rulers with men. In addition, Albanian refugees in Italy and abroad were known as Greeks! Their settlements were known as Greek settlements! Theres also some studies being done now that are studying some of the early Ottoman archives. Theyre indicating that not only traditional Arvanite settlements but the entirety of Peloponnese was Albanian speaking before and just after Ottoman conquest.

???

Either complete lack of historical knowledge, or just naive propaganda? In any case, nonsense.

Please check your sources.

 

[LABERIA]

(*) The common Greek language in the last quarter of the 20th century was neither a restored version of the tongue of the popular heroes of the Greek revolution, nor the demotic of the diaspora intellectuals. It was passed through the filter of the Katharevousa, just as national ideology passed through the filter of the "Hellenization" process. In the Greek language through the 16 to the 18th centuries the word "Hellenic" meant the language of ancient Greece. In Greek today, the word "Hellenic" means modern Greece and one needs to add the adjective "ancient" to refer to the language of the classical era. In the academic programs in the English speaking world, though, "Greek" refers to the classical language programs. During the 19th and 20th centuries, modern Greece was "Hellenized" and "Hellenism" acquired a modern Greek version. (p. 229) The tourist who travels today in Greece recognizes in the regions visited the names of places encountered in ancient Greek literature, mythology and history. But the visitor does not know that this map of ancient Greece has been constantly redesigned over the last 170 years, that is, since the beginning of the Greek state. (p. 230)

The modification of the place names began just after the constitution of the Greek state in the early 1830's, and went hand in hand with the reorganization of the administration of the country and its divisions into prefectures, municipalities and parishes. The people attempting the renaming of spaces were conscious of the ideological importance of this action. The renaming of space was not achieved in a single attempt but was a long process that went on for decades. It took place each time a new region was integrated into the Greek state. This was the integration of Thessaly (1881), of Macedonia (1913), and of Thrace (1920). Every time they carried out a reform of the local administration -- until as recently as 1998, when many municipalities and communities were reunited with the so-called Kapodistrian plan "new" Greek classical names, previously unknown to the local inhabitants, made their appearance. Which were the toponyms that had to disappear? According to the Greek authorities, they were the toponyms that were "foreign or did not sound good", in other words those that were in "bad Greek". (pp. 230-231)

The middle of the 19th century was the stage of a conflict between the Greek intelligentsia and Fallmerayer, who maintained that, in the middle ages, Greece was inhabited by Slavs and Albanian peoples. As a consequence, Greek intellectuals were prompt to erase all the Slavic and Albanian names which could support the rival arguments. In 1909 the government-appointed commission on toponyms reported that one village in three in Greece (30% of the total) should have its name changed (of the 5,096 Greek villages 1,500 were considered as "speaking a barbaric language"). (pp. 231-232) After the Balkan wars (1912-1913), new reasons were added to the previous ones. Names ought be changed so as not to "give rise to damaging ethnological implications to the Greek nation, of a sort which could be used against us by our enemies". The new enemy was the revisionism of the northern borders acquired after the Balkan wars, through the use of minority issues. (p. 232)

(Hellenisms: Culture, Identity, and Ethnicity from Antiquity to Modernity, Edited by Katerina Zacharia)

 

[Sakattack]

@Laberia

Nothing against what you wrote. It is well know.

But has nothing to do with that your compatriot stated above. Pure nonsense with 0 historical accuracy.

I am not willing to take part in a blind nationalistic conv, with biased arguments and agendas. A lot of topics is full of that, enough

PS: Fallmerayer's antigreek opinions as well as his motives, are also well known.

 

[LABERIA]

@Laberia

Nothing against what you wrote. It is well know.

But has nothing to do with that your compatriot stated above. Pure nonsense with 0 historical accuracy.

I am not willing to take part in a blind nationalistic conv, with biased arguments and agendas. A lot of topics is full of that, enough

PS: Fallmerayer's antigreek opinions as well as his motives, are also well known.

Hahahahahaha. Fallmerayer anti-greek? Why you think so?

 

[Sakattack]

Search, read and find out

Sent from my Robin

 

[LABERIA]

Search, read and find out

Sent from my Robin

Ah, so you personally, don`t have any idea?

 

[Sakattack]

I was pretty clear. Please stop trying to drag me into an "e-fight", I won't bite.

Have a nice evening.

Sent from my Robin

 

[trdbr1234]

No, i mean Modern Greek. Not even Medievel Greek, which was spoken some centuries prior to that, up to 1500s. Kione Greek, which you falsely mentioned, was their predecessor and was spoken till circa 300AD.

I dont understand what you're disagreeing on really. What and who is Greek here is being put into question. And you weren't "Greek" before 1800's, nor was your language called Greek in Medieval times. It is hypothesized that the language you speak stemmed from Kione. That's a more fitting tittle for your language and would avoid confusion in this discussion.

No. Was either Koine Greek, either Greek. It's speakers were called Romii (Ρωμιοί) at some periods, which was the synonym of Greek (Γραικός). The term Hellene (Έλληνας), as I told you, was not in use after 400AD and was only referring to non Christian Greeks prior to that and after the raise of Christianity. This was the reason that was abandoned actually...

Synonymy is not saying anything. All you're saying is that you want it to be synonymous. In reality, you were Romei! And the rest is more assumptions. Ridiculous how the history of modern Greece is built on these assumptions, isn't it?

No. Absolutely not, sorry. Check your sources and my previous post.

Skenderbeu was knows as prince of the Macedonians, Epirotans, and Albanians. In addition, he claimed decent from Pirro and Aleksander.

And lets not forget, the Kione were still called Romei here!

???

Either complete lack of historical knowledge, or just naive propaganda? In any case, nonsense.

Please check your sources.

What exactly is nonsense?

Serbian Empire claimed to be rulers of Serbians and Greeks. I fail to see how the Romei in Byzantine can be considered Greek when you were Romei.

Dude, check the names of the towns in Italy where Arberesh live. Aside the ones that were recently changed to signify Albanian decent for political reasons, they can all be translated to either Greek village or Arberesh village. Yet, they all spoke Albanian! Not only that, but the majority of them decent from the region of Poloponese, which they refer to Morea!


The only nonsense here is how the Kione suddenly became "Greek" post 1800's. It's mind boggling really.

 

[Sakattack]

I dont understand what you're disagreeing on really. What and who is Greek here is being put into question. And you weren't "Greek" before 1800's, nor was your language called Greek in Medieval times. It is hypothesized that the language you speak stemmed from Kione. That's a more fitting tittle for your language and would avoid confusion in this discussion.





Synonymy is not saying anything. All you're saying is that you want it to be synonymous. In reality, you were Romei! And the rest is more assumptions. Ridiculous how the history of modern Greece is built on these assumptions, isn't it?




Skenderbeu was knows as prince of the Macedonians, Epirotans, and Albanians. In addition, he claimed decent from Pirro and Aleksander.

And lets not forget, the Kione were still called Romei here!







What exactly is nonsense?

Serbian Empire claimed to be rulers of Serbians and Greeks. I fail to see how the Romei in Byzantine can be considered Greek when you were Romei.

Dude, check the names of the towns in Italy where Arberesh live. Aside the ones that were recently changed to signify Albanian decent for political reasons, they can all be translated to either Greek village or Arberesh village. Yet, they all spoke Albanian! Not only that, but the majority of them decent from the region of Poloponese, which they refer to Morea!


The only nonsense here is how the Kione suddenly became "Greek" post 1800's. It's mind boggling really.

Indeed it's boring.

In your case I would start ASAP some history lessons and maybe some English ones because you don't seem to understand. For instance, I posted the links of Koine Greek, Medieval Greek and Modern Greek from Wikipedia, just to read what are you talking about, and you just ignored it. You came back again with your own definitions

Honestly, it's really rare to see SO MANY mistakes in just two posts (your previous one is even worse). I am not your teacher, nor your father to try to educate you and I am not gonna start a "discussion" on this, arguing about the obvious, because your level is really low. It's even worse, though, that you don't seem to realise it.

Please stop embarrassing your self, it's kinda busy forum.

Sent from my Robin

 

[trdbr1234]

Indeed it's boring.

In your case I would start ASAP some history lessons and maybe some English ones because you don't seem to understand. For instance, I posted the links of Koine Greek, Medieval Greek and Modern Greek from Wikipedia, just to read what are you talking about, and you just ignored it. You came back again with your own definitions

Honestly, it's really rare to see SO MANY mistakes in just two posts (your previous one is even worse). I am not your teacher, nor your father to try to educate you and I am not gonna start a "discussion" on this, arguing about the obvious, because your level is really low. It's even worse, though, that you don't seem to realise it.

Please stop embarrassing your self, it's kinda busy forum.

Sent from my Robin

Aside from trying to offend my intelligence, do you have anything to add to this discussion?

If not, I hope some Arvanita in Greece read these posts and see what they've done to them and their country. Aristidh Kola is a good read every Arvanita should have in their homes. Have a good day!

 

[Sakattack]

Aside from trying to offend my intelligence, do you have anything to add to this discussion?

If not, I hope some Arvanita in Greece read these posts and see what they've done to them and their country. Aristidh Kola is a good read every Arvanita should have in their homes. Have a good day!

The attempt to spread false info and propaganda, is bad.
The attempt to spread SUCH inaccurate info and to make SO naive propaganda, is just ridiculous.

Have nothing personal against you or against Albanians, my brother's wife is Albanian and my nephews are halfAlbanian. I have some Albanian friends too.

Better end this discussion now, though, doesn't go any further. And a friendly advices: read some stuff.

Have a nice evening.

Sent from my Robin