Hellens or Romei?

[Robert6]

If Pelasgians were close to Etrurians or to Basque, then most possibly they had R1b and not G2a

 

[King Bardhyl]

Do you have Albanian records from Middle Ages saying this? So who do you know what Albanians of Middle Ages thought of themselves?

I'm not convinced that you understand something of genetics. Regarding history, I sincerely invite you to not deal with this. To speak about something need to read books, not to see the covers of books.

John Hobhouse

British traveller and writer, John Cameron Hobhouse (1786-1869), also known as Lord Broughton, was born near Bristol. He was educated at Westminster School and attended Trinity College, Cambridge, where he founded the Whig Club and an Amicable Society. It was at Cambridge that he met and became an intimate friend of the poet Lord Byron, with whom he travelled in 1809-1810 to Albania, Greece and Turkey, in particular to Janina (Ioannina) and as far north as the court of Ali Pasha in Tepellenè (Tepelena). Hobhouse later became a member of parliament, served as secretary for war in the cabinet of Earl Grey in 1832 and held positions in later governments. The memoirs of his travels to Albania with Byron (whom he does not mention) were published in the volume “A Journey through Albania and Other Provinces of Turkey in Europe and Asia to Constantinople during the Years 1809 and 1810,” London 1813.


“…it certain that the Christians, who can fairly be called Albanian, are scarcely, if at all, to be distinguished from Mahometans. They carry arms, and many of them are enrolled in the service of Ali, and differ in no respect from other . There is a spirit of independence and a love of the country, in the whole people, that, in a grater measure, does away the vast distinction, observable in other parts of Turkey, between the followers of of two religions. For when the natives of other provinces, upon being asked who they are, will say, “we are Turks” or, we are “Christians.” A man of this country answers, “I am an Albanian.”


You see?

“They are strewn with the wreckage of dead Empires–past Powers–only the Albanian “goes on for ever.”
- Edith Durham

 

[LeBrok]

I'm not convinced that you understand something of genetics. Regarding history, I sincerely invite you to not deal with this. To speak about something need to read books, not to see the covers of books.

John Hobhouse

British traveller and writer, John Cameron Hobhouse (1786-1869), also known as Lord Broughton, was born near Bristol. He was educated at Westminster School and attended Trinity College, Cambridge, where he founded the Whig Club and an Amicable Society. It was at Cambridge that he met and became an intimate friend of the poet Lord Byron, with whom he travelled in 1809-1810 to Albania, Greece and Turkey, in particular to Janina (Ioannina) and as far north as the court of Ali Pasha in Tepellenè (Tepelena). Hobhouse later became a member of parliament, served as secretary for war in the cabinet of Earl Grey in 1832 and held positions in later governments. The memoirs of his travels to Albania with Byron (whom he does not mention) were published in the volume “A Journey through Albania and Other Provinces of Turkey in Europe and Asia to Constantinople during the Years 1809 and 1810,” London 1813.


“…it certain that the Christians, who can fairly be called Albanian, are scarcely, if at all, to be distinguished from Mahometans. They carry arms, and many of them are enrolled in the service of Ali, and differ in no respect from other . There is a spirit of independence and a love of the country, in the whole people, that, in a grater measure, does away the vast distinction, observable in other parts of Turkey, between the followers of of two religions. For when the natives of other provinces, upon being asked who they are, will say, “we are Turks” or, we are “Christians.” A man of this country answers, “I am an Albanian.”


You see?

“They are strewn with the wreckage of dead Empires–past Powers–only the Albanian “goes on for ever.”
- Edith Durham

This is precious lol. I'm talking about Middle Ages and you deliver the proof of Albanian "self recognition" from nineteenth century!
I think we had enough of your arrogance, impertinence, nationalism, misinformation, ignorance and no respect to members of Eupedia. You are banned. And yes, for plagiarism too. You plastered someone elses beautiful book about Albania without a slightest credit to your country man who has spent years making this book.
I'm sure Maciamo will elect to delete Discover Albania thread not to risk copyright lawsuit.

 

[albanopolis]

If Pelasgians were close to Etrurians or to Basque, then most possibly they had R1b and not G2a

Pelasgians were certainly I1+I2. The I haplogroup is one of the oldest in Europe who survived the ice age. One of the best places to survive was the coastline of Adriatic, ionian sea (ionian=ours in albanian). G2 and J2 are also possible mixed with I

 

[Dianatomia]

Had the peoples in the central Balkans of which the Albanians claim decent created cities like Rome, Alexandria, Constantinople, Athens and the like, then perhaps we wouldn´t have to cope with this envy of Albanians on Greeks on Forums like these.

Romioi or Hellenes?
Hellenes or Danaans?

 

[albanopolis]

Had the peoples in the central Balkans of which the Albanians claim decent created cities like Rome, Alexandria, Constantinople, Athens and the like, then perhaps we wouldn´t have to cope with this vanity of Albanians on Greeks on Forums like these.

Romioi or Hellenes?
Hellenes or Danaans?

Its a valid question to ask about decree name change by Greeks.
Greeks had in their medieval churches the works of antiquity. And in those books was spoken about the Hellenic period of civilization and medieval Greeks never bothered to call themselves Hellene because they did not feel Hellene. They felt Romei!
Athens in 1820 was Arvanites inhabited. Greeks had abandoned it for whatever reason. After Arvanites wan the war, Greeks outsmarted and betrayed them. Most of Arvanites ended up killed behind their back. Then Greeks started to change street names from Albanian to Hellenic.
The argument that because of Rome Greeks felt Romei is an aromatic fart.
Rome stood at least 100 years more in Albania, the major cities of Albania spoke Latin and Albanians never felt Romei, Why did Greeks?
Then a reasonable answer is that by 1820 Greek population was so mixed up with other ethnicities so much that Hellenism did not make sense.
You are Hellene as much as Skopjans are Macedonians.
Do you accept the fact that existing antique population of Macedonia mixed with incoming Slavs?
If you do then they are partly Macedonians also. Maybe 20% or 30%. But so do you? You are just 32% Hellenes. The rest are Romei. How come a Romei population clams authenticy of Hellenism?
So if you see in this prism the question of Romei is a legitimate one.
Forumer's here are going insane that Illyrian and Albanian are two different things, but Romei and Hellene is the same thing! Really?

 

[Yetos]

Its a valid question to ask about decree name change by Greeks.
Greeks had in their medieval churches the works of antiquity. And in those books was spoken about the Hellenic period of civilization and medieval Greeks never bothered to call themselves Hellene because they did not feel Hellene. They felt Romei!
Athens in 1820 was Arvanites inhabited. Greeks had abandoned it for whatever reason. After Arvanites wan the war, Greeks outsmarted and betrayed them. Most of Arvanites ended up killed behind their back. Then Greeks started to change street names from Albanian to Hellenic.
The argument that because of Rome Greeks felt Romei is an aromatic fart.
Rome stood at least 100 years more in Albania, the major cities of Albania spoke Latin and Albanians never felt Romei, Why did Greeks?
Then a reasonable answer is that by 1820 Greek population was so mixed up with other ethnicities so much that Hellenism did not make sense.
You are Hellene as much as Skopjans are Macedonians.
Do you accept the fact that existing antique population of Macedonia mixed with incoming Slavs?
If you do then they are partly Macedonians also. Maybe 20% or 30%. But so do you? You are just 32% Hellenes. The rest are Romei. How come a Romei population clams authenticy of Hellenism?
So if you see in this prism the question of Romei is a legitimate one.
Forumer's here are going insane that Illyrian and Albanian are two different things, but Romei and Hellene is the same thing! Really?

ok

better read again what word Ελλην meant in East roman empire,

THEY FELT GREEKS, AND THEY WERE GREEKS,
BUT THEY WERE AFRAID FROM GUYS LIKE YOU, AND CODEX THEODOSIANUS, AND CHURCH,
SO WORD ΕΛΛΗΝ WAS TABBOO, IT MEANT SUICIDE.
SIMPLY THEY USE THE WORD RUM ΡΩΜΙΟΣ AS CERTIFICATION OF NOT PAGAN,

you never read codex theodosianus, and rest codexes,

IT IS LIKE a GORANI IN ALBANIA SAY I AM SLAV

 

[LeBrok]

Forumer's here are going insane that Illyrian and Albanian are two different things,

Obviously you didn't supply irrefutable proof of your hypothesis. Do we know what language Illyrians spoke, was is proto Albanian? Can you present genetic continuity of Illyrians into Albanians? If not genetic, try cultural continuity, the language, religion, food, music, etc.
The Illyrian-Albanian notion could be true as well, but there is not enough evidence to prove it, or any evidence at all, except wishful thinking of some Albanians.

but Romei and Hellene is the same thing! Really?

Could you quote a post here saying that Romei and Hellene are exactly same thing. Perhaps more important question is "Why your brain invents inexistant things?".
Unlike Illyrian-Albanian question, we know from hundreds of ancient sources that today's Greeks cary cultural continuity from ancient Hellenes. Even if only in form of language. I'm sure we will have also genetic evidence soon pointing to Hellenes as mostly their ancestors.

More and more it becomes obvious to me that you are here not to look for knowledge or the truth, but to find a ways to degrade and attack Greeks.

 

[Ike]

Taranis post might satisfy you, not me who knows the composition of today's Greek state. There are assimilated Turks there, Gypsies, Arvanites, Slavs, Vlahs, Arabs, Armenians, Buggars, Avars, Huns,Vandals. In total there could be 7-8 million inhabitants of non Hellenistic heritage.

You do realize that if Albanians were autochthonous they would have been Romei too?

 

[albanopolis]

You do realize that if Albanians were autochthonous they would have been Romei too?

Had they been Romei because of Rome they should have had something culturally inherited from Rome. Greeks I know have nothing inherited from them, not Catholicism ( Albanians are catholic from Rome by the way) not aesthetic Latin scripture, nothing. Had they had cultural links to Rome they should have had something.They could have had some cultural affectations at least. Average Greek I know hate the west. They despise America and Germany,hate Italians and they look down on Jews.
An American friend of mine told me that Greeks only the stomach have with the west, but their hearts and minds are with Russia. They are in Nato out of fear of Turkey, otherwise they would have been in military alliance with Russia. But since Russian military is a joke,they entered alliance out of convenience not conviction. They were afraid Russian military could not be a match for Turkey's.
So, its clear the name Romei came from a Normandic tribes that entered Hellenes in the dark ages. The only other Romani I know are gypsies, but might have been another one that I don't know.

 

[Taranis]

Had they been Romei because of Rome they should have had something culturally inherited from Rome. Greeks I know have nothing inherited from them, not Catholicism ( Albanians are catholic from Rome by the way) not aesthetic Latin scripture, nothing. Had they had cultural links to Rome they should have had something.They could have had some cultural affectations at least.

You do know that the difference between "Catholicism" and "Orthodox" Christianity only emerged during the Middle Ages, and that this was mainly based on a power play between the Franks and the Holy Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire, right? Greek was the administrative language of the eastern Mediterranean since the days of Alexander's conquests (the only other widely-used language, in the Near East at least, was Aramaic, which was also the every-day language of the people in Roman Judaea). And when the Romans absorbed the Hellenistic states one by one they kept that system. It was a natural evolution upon the demise of the western Roman Empire that Greek would be the language of the Byzantine Empire if most of their population spoke Greek. Furthermore, Greek was the language of Christianity, this is what all the scripture was written in (including the Septuagint, that translation of the Old Testament from the Hellenistic), and Christianity was de-facto the state religion of the Byzantine Empire. The transformation from the eastern portion of the Roman Empire to the entity that the historians call the "Byzantine Empire" was a seamless one.

Average Greek I know hate the west. They despise America and Germany,hate Italians and they look down on Jews.
An American friend of mine told me that Greeks only the stomach have with the west, but their hearts and minds are with Russia.

Mind your words and really, don't generalize before you make such accusations.

They are in Nato out of fear of Turkey, otherwise they would have been in military alliance with Russia. But since Russian military is a joke,they entered alliance out of convenience not conviction. They were afraid Russian military could not be a match for Turkey's.

You are aware that there was this epoch of history called the "Cold War", during which the Soviet Union, which had emerged victorious from World War II, and the possibility of an outbreak of World War III "at any moment now" (including the prospect of atomic armageddon) loomed over Europe?

So, its clear the name Romei came from a Normandic tribes that entered Hellenes in the dark ages. The only other Romani I know are gypsies, but might have been another one that I don't know.

The name "Roma" is etymologically unrelated, its a false twin.

 

[albanopolis]

You do know that the difference between "Catholicism" and "Orthodox" Christianity only emerged during the Middle Ages, and that this was mainly based on a power play between the Franks and the Holy Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire, right? Greek was the administrative language of the eastern Mediterranean since the days of Alexander's conquests (the only other widely-used language, in the Near East at least, was Aramaic, which was also the every-day language of the people in Roman Judaea). And when the Romans absorbed the Hellenistic states one by one they kept that system. It was a natural evolution upon the demise of the western Roman Empire that Greek would be the language of the Byzantine Empire if most of their population spoke Greek. Furthermore, Greek was the language of Christianity, this is what all the scripture was written in (including the Septuagint, that translation of the Old Testament from the Hellenistic), and Christianity was de-facto the state religion of the Byzantine Empire. The transformation from the eastern portion of the Roman Empire to the entity that the historians call the "Byzantine Empire" was a seamless one.



Mind your words and really, don't generalize before you make such accusations.



You are aware that there was this epoch of history called the "Cold War", during which the Soviet Union, which had emerged victorious from World War II, and the possibility of an outbreak of World War III "at any moment now" (including the prospect of atomic armageddon) loomed over Europe?



The name "Roma" is etymologically unrelated, its a false twin.

What? Average Greek is not anti western?
What world do you live in?
When Merkel visited Athens lats year, they met her to a secrete location by helicopter for talks. Greeks had taken the streets with axes to meet her.
How many times a Pope has visited Greece? A Pope feels a lot comfortable visiting Turkey a country where 101% of people are Muslims than Greece. Popes have never attempted to visit Greeks since anti west feelings run high.
When you don't respect Pope, the head of spirituality of the west then how can you be western oriented?
I am convinced that because of Romei heritage, genetics of Greeks which express itself in behavior of its people is anti west. Every country tryed to help USA in Afghanistan but Greece.

 

[Ike]

You don't understand. If Albanians are autochthonous, like Greek, then I see no reason why, according to your theory, Albanians would not also be:

assimilated Turks there, Gypsies, Arvanites, Slavs, Vlahs, Arabs, Armenians, Buggars, Avars, Huns,Vandals. In total there could be 7-8 (1-2) million inhabitants of non Hellenistic (Albanian) heritage.

Do you claim it to be true, or you suggest any other theory why the Romei from the territory that is today referred as Albania would not be influenced by this phenomena just as same as their neighbouring Romei from the territory that is today referred as Greece?

 

[Yetos]

What? Average Greek is not anti western?
What world do you live in?
When Merkel visited Athens lats year, they met her to a secrete location by helicopter for talks. Greeks had taken the streets with axes to meet her.
How many times a Pope has visited Greece? A Pope feels a lot comfortable visiting Turkey a country where 101% of people are Muslims than Greece. Popes have never attempted to visit Greeks since anti west feelings run high.
When you don't respect Pope, the head of spirituality of the west then how can you be western oriented?
I am convinced that because of Romei heritage, genetics of Greeks which express itself in behavior of its people is anti west. Every country tryed to help USA in Afghanistan but Greece.

you have 'strange' view of what is WEST,

WEST is not Pope of Rome, neither Mercel,
in Afganistan Greece send 600 troops, in Anti-Somalian piracy send 2 boats, etc etc

in you think like that, there is inside EU parliament a coalition, with Italian Pepe Grillo and English Farage (sorry if spell wrong)
Does this makes England or Italy anti-West?
in North Europe are mostly protestants, does this make North Europe anti-West?

at least can you explain us what is WEST? fo you?

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

you have 'strange' view of what is WEST,

WEST is not Pope of Rome, neither Mercel,
in Afganistan Greece send 600 troops, in Anti-Somalian piracy send 2 boats, etc etc

in you think like that, there is inside EU parliament a coalition, with Italian Pepe Grillo and English Farage (sorry if spell wrong)
Does this makes England or Italy anti-West?
in North Europe are mostly protestants, does this make North Europe anti-West?

at least can you explain us what is WEST? fo you?

Where is west? _(-the hobbit from middle earth asked the Golum... -From the lord of the chimps.)

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

1) Ζεύς ήν, Ζευς εστί, Ζεύς έσσεται... (Τhe Peleiades to the oracle of Dodonae)

2) O Kύριος, ο Ών, ο Ήν, και ο Έρχόμενος... ( to john of Apocalypse)

trnslt 1) Zeus was, Zeus is, Zeus will be...
2) the same instead of Zeus= ( θεός =theos=god) but as -Κύριος (lord) an epithet for a person and a god;

From Pelasgians to Greeks to Helleenes to Romans to Νeohelleenes... to the Stars! - (no west neither east, only up!)

 

[albanopolis]

I don't know, personally I have doubts about the coherence of Greek population. Fallmerayer noticed that too. There is no day when Greeks don't curse Fallmerayer for saying there are no Hellenes in Greece. Most are Albanians and Slavs.
Rome left Greece in the 5th century, it means 1200 years latter Greeks still felt Romans?

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

I don't know, personally I have doubts about the coherence of Greek population. Fallmerayer noticed that too. There is no day when Greeks don't curse Fallmerayer for saying there are no Hellenes in Greece. Most are Albanians and Slavs.
Rome left Greece in the 5th century, it means 1200 years latter Greeks still felt Romans?

I agree. We are the greek speaking Slavalbanians! Nothing closer to the greeks.
ok?... Maybe happy now?

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

I could never doubt a person what or how it defines itself.
Only with the Greeks these things happened!

The Greeks are not the Greeks because all the others around the Greeks are more Greeks than the surrounded Greeks -which they learn greeks from whom by the way?
What you really want to prove? Could you possible agree that you would also be happy to consider yourself... maybe as a Greek;

 

[Taranis]

I don't know, personally I have doubts about the coherence of Greek population. Fallmerayer noticed that too. There is no day when Greeks don't curse Fallmerayer for saying there are no Hellenes in Greece. Most are Albanians and Slavs.

A funny coincidence that Greek (Ελληνικα) is the official language of Greece (Ελλας).

Rome left Greece in the 5th century, it means 1200 years latter Greeks still felt Romans?

Had you actually read my earlier post, you would have noticed that this statement of yours is completely ignorant of history. Rome never "left Greece" in the 5th century. The eastern half of the Roman Empire continued seamlessly as the Byzantine Empire. (I might repeat to say that this is a modern term used by historians (another term is "Eastern Roman Empire"), but the key issue is that the Byzantine Empire was a continuation of the Roman Empire, in Greek language, under Christian religion, and it certainly did not end in the 5th century, but in 1453, when the Ottoman Empire conquered Constantinople.

As for the supposed "non-coherence", there was no doubt population movement during the Hellenistic, Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman periods, in so far it would not surprise anybody that modern Greeks are more mixed than the Greeks of the 5th century BC. But to claim "modern Greeks are no real Greeks, Albanians are the real heirs" is moronically absurd.

I give you that modern Greece has little continuity with classical Greece other than the Greek language (classical Greece was polytheistic, for one), but, it has a great deal of continuity with the medieval Byzantine Empire (modern Greek is closer to medieval Greek, but that shouldn't surprise anybody, either?), and notably religion.

You do not understand where modern Greece comes from if you ignore the period between 476 (demise of the western roman empire) and 1453 (conquest of constantinople by the Ottomans).