What haplo was among people of Keltiminar and among people of Pit-Comb ware cultures?

[Robert6]

Ok, but Pit Comb area from Finland to Turkmenistan is 4000 km. I thought that should be enough space for other haplogroups like R1b within Pit Comb Ware peoples? And then Pit Comb Ware extended beyond the Urals, while in South Urals R1b already starts to become strong.
R1b M73 barely exists west of the Urals, but there is a strong trail down to Afghanistan via Central Asia:

And then in the Eupedia map for R1b in general, see the concentration in Turkmenistan (~Keltiminar region).
However I don't know the variance.

I don't think that R1b-M73 is local in west part of central Asia it is from Ordos and Uyghuria,
R1b-M73 is among Kypsak subtribe of Bashkirs,
Qangli-Kipchak subtribe of Karakalpaks,
KaraQypshaq subtribe of Kazakhs,
Kipshak subtribe of Noghays,
Kumandins(Cuman Kipchaks) subtribe of Altayans,
and among Mongoloid Hazara in Afghanistan
Cuman-Kipchaks came from Uyghuria(west China)



Before the existence of Yamna culture
the Combed ware(Pit-Comb ware) and Keltiminar cultures were almost neighboring.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Yamna-en.svg

 

[bicicleur 2]

Ok, but Pit Comb area from Finland to Turkmenistan is 4000 km. I thought that should be enough space for other haplogroups like R1b within Pit Comb Ware peoples? And then Pit Comb Ware extended beyond the Urals, while in South Urals R1b already starts to become strong.
R1b M73 barely exists west of the Urals, but there is a strong trail down to Afghanistan via Central Asia:

And then in the Eupedia map for R1b in general, see the concentration in Turkmenistan (~Keltiminar region).
However I don't know the variance.

this map in not complete, because people further east were not included in the study

10 % of Uyghur are R1b, also Turkmenistan has a lot of R1b
I wonder wether they are M73 as well.
In that case it would mean Tocharians.

 

[bicicleur 2]

The interesting thing is that Maeotians had many Fish(source of vitamin D) in their diet (and beacause of that were more fertile?), like the people of Keltiminar Pit-Comb-Ware and Corded Ware cultures

acording to David Anthony, before invention of the wheel (before Yamna) people on the Pontic steppe lived near the big rivers, and ate a lot of fish too

 

[bicicleur 2]

What haplogroup was among people of Keltiminar culture and among people of Pit-Comb Ware culture?
Your opinions on this?


And here is some help from Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelteminar_culture
Scientists hold that Kelteminar culture is related to the Pit–Comb Ware culture


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit–Comb_Ware_culture
Some of this region was absorbed by the later Corded Ware horizon.

Kelteminar ended 3500 BC
What happened to those which were not absorbed by corded ware?

 

[Robert6]

Kelteminar ended 3500 BC
What happened to those which were not absorbed by corded ware?

Keltiminar culture existed until the coming of Tazabagjab culture,
Tazabagjab culture came in the XV century BC, to Uzbekistan.
(Tazabagjab culture is part of Andronovo horizon).



Descedants of Pit-Comb ware culture are
1)Marianovskaya culture(was in forest steppe Ukraine and in eastern Polesie)
2)"Textile" ceramic culture was in the East and North regions of Pit-Comb ware
(i.e. exept the Western part of Pit-Comb ware which was in Corded ware)


Marianovskaya culture(in Russian)
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Марьяновская_культура

"Textile" ceramic culture(in Russian)
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Культура_сетчатой_керамики

 

[Silesian]

Ok, but Pit Comb area from Finland to Turkmenistan is 4000 km. I thought that should be enough space for other haplogroups like R1b within Pit Comb Ware peoples? And then Pit Comb Ware extended beyond the Urals, while in South Urals R1b already starts to become strong.
R1b M73 barely exists west of the Urals, but there is a strong trail down to Afghanistan via Central Asia:

And then in the Eupedia map for R1b in general, see the concentration in Turkmenistan (~Keltiminar region).
However I don't know the variance.

Eastern R1b [L51-] Z2103+Z2105+ L277+ & L584+ and Z2106+ and Khazakstan
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/alash/default.aspx?section=yresults
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx
Odd R1b-Z2106+ rare showing in Bhutan and Han Chinese.

 

[Sile]

Why Bronze age?
Cimmerians Scythians Sarmatians and after them Alanians started to expand in Iron ages they all had Iron and Steel weapons, Iron Akinakes for example is the archeological marker of Scythians and of Medes.
Cimmerians first Iron age new comers to Pontic steppes, they smashed out the Bronze age western steppes people.

Because 1200BC bronzeage migrations changed the landscape of the ancients. By the iron-age the people had relatively settled down until the barbarian invasions of 400AD

 

[Robert6]

Because 1200BC bronzeage migrations changed the landscape of the ancients. By the iron-age the people had relatively settled down until the barbarian invasions of 400AD

What?
In 1200BC was the collapse of Bronze age, the Sea people were invading all over the known world, nothing could settle down after that.

After them in late Bronze Age, Barbaric invasion of Sygines in 9-10 centuries BC from Ordos (China), towards Lurestan(Iran) and after that with Iron weapons they invaded Hungary.
Invasion of Dorians with Iron weapons in 9-10 centuries BC to Greece.
Invasion of Cimmerians in 8-9 centuries BC to South Caucasus and Anatolia,
Invasion of Scythians in 6-8 centuries to Palestine, to Syria, to India, to Urartu, to Sistan(Sacaestan in Southern Iran), to eastern Anatolia(Capaedocia), to Caucasus, to Pontic Steppe.
Medes conquered many places in early Iron age.
e.t.c.

 

[Sile]

What?
In 1200BC was the collapse of Bronze age, the Sea people were invading all over the known world, nothing could settle down after that.

After them in late Bronze Age, Barbaric invasion of Sygines in 9-10 centuries BC from Ordos (China), towards Lurestan(Iran) and after that with Iron weapons they invaded Hungary.
Invasion of Dorians with Iron weapons in 9-10 centuries BC to Greece.
Invasion of Cimmerians in 8-9 centuries BC to South Caucasus and Anatolia,
Invasion of Scythians in 6-8 centuries to Palestine, to Syria, to India, to Urartu, to Sistan(Sacaestan in Southern Iran), to eastern Anatolia(Capaedocia), to Caucasus, to Pontic Steppe.
Medes conquered many places in early Iron age.
e.t.c.

you start in the iron-age............I will start in the late bronze-age .......end of discussion

so I expect no discussion of the doric invasion and replacement of the myceneans in greece in late bronze-age

 

[Robert6]

Dorians had Iron weapons.

 

[Sile]

Dorians had Iron weapons.

Dorians replaced Myceneans in 1100BC before iron age weapons emerged around 800BC

 

[Robert6]

Dorians replaced Myceneans in 1100BC before iron age weapons emerged around 800BC

Iron weapons emerged 18 century BC in central Anatolia, but I don't know exactly when Iron weapons were in south Balkans.

About Dorian invasiaon
The problem is that there are no traces of any Dorians anywhere until the start of theGeometric period about 950 BC. This simple pottery decoration appears to be correlated with other changes in material culture, such as the introduction of iron weapons and alterations in burial practices from Mycenaean group burials in tholos tombs to individual burials and cremation. These can certainly be associated with the historical Dorian settlers, such as those of Sparta in the 10th century BC.

 

[Sile]

Iron weapons emerged 18 century BC in central Anatolia, but I don't know exactly when Iron weapons were in south Balkans.

About Dorian invasiaon
The problem is that there are no traces of any Dorians anywhere until the start of theGeometric period about 950 BC. This simple pottery decoration appears to be correlated with other changes in material culture, such as the introduction of iron weapons and alterations in burial practices from Mycenaean group burials in tholos tombs to individual burials and cremation. These can certainly be associated with the historical Dorian settlers, such as those of Sparta in the 10th century BC.

show me proof that ironage began 1800BC

 

[Robert6]

show me proof that ironage began 1800BC

In 2005, metallurgical analysis by Hideo Akanuma of iron fragments found at Kaman-Kalehöyük in 1994 and dating to c. 1800 BCE revealed that some of these fragments were in fact composed of carbon steel; these currently form the world's earliest known evidence for steel manufacture.^[1][2]

 

[bicicleur 2]

In 2005, metallurgical analysis by Hideo Akanuma of iron fragments found at Kaman-Kalehöyük in 1994 and dating to c. 1800 BCE revealed that some of these fragments were in fact composed of carbon steel; these currently form the world's earliest known evidence for steel manufacture.^[1][2]

most iron was of poor quality and production was not efficient
only 10th/11th century BC there was know how to make good quality iron with correct carbon content in an efficient way
iron ore was abundant
wherever this know how spread, iron age started

can you tell more about iron age Dorians?

 

[Robert6]

most iron was of poor quality and production was not efficient
only 10th/11th century BC there was know how to make good quality iron with correct carbon content in an efficient way
iron ore was abundant
wherever this know how spread, iron age started

Purushanda features again in the stories of the campaigns of the 17th century BC Hittite ruler Anitta.^[4] The Purushandan kingdom appears to have been a significant rival ofKanesh, the kingdom ruled by Anitta. The Hittite king launched a war against Purushanda but according to the Anitta Text, a Hittite account of later date, the Purushandan king surrendered to the Hittite army:^[4]
When I ... went into battle, the Man of Purushanda brought gifts to me; he brought to me a throne of iron and a sceptre of iron as a gift. But when I returned to Nesa [Kanesh] I took the Man of Purushanda with me. As soon as he enters the chamber, that man will sit before me on the right.^[5]

+
In the tomb of Egyptian pharaoh Tutankhamun (c. 1350 BC. ) was found one iron dagger, apparently given to him by the Hittites

 

[Robert6]

can you tell more about iron age Dorians?

"Dorieus"(Dorian) ~ Lumberjack/Woodcutter
The importance of a such men (Lumberjacks/Woodcutters) is higher in the time of Iron age.