Slavic R1a clades.

31. Of the Croats and of the country they now dwell in


Great Croatia, also called 'white', is still unbaptized to this day
I don't dispute White Croatia existed, but where and how big is the unknown. The map that you posted is no proof. It was made by some hobbyist in recent years.
 
Is there a possibility that Croatia was just a geographic region? Hrbat means ridge, so it could denote Carpates, while Hrvats (Croats) could be Slavs from Carpates (i.e. Slovakia)?

carte_carpates_mini.jpg
 
Why don't you explore "Genetics" section of Eupedia to learn more about haplotypes and their clades.


I repeat.........Croats haplogroup R1a represented almost exclusively by the Central Eurasian subclade Z280 .........I. Rozhansky2013/10/18 geneticist and expert for R1a haplogroup



Most Croatians and others in dinaric area have R1a Z280 CTS3402....

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/dinaric_alps_dna/default.aspx?section=ymap

There is a smaller part of the other types R1a but in the majority is R1a Z280 CTS3402...





 
[/FONT][/COLOR] I don't dispute White Croatia existed, but where and how big is the unknown. The map that you posted is no proof. It was made by some hobbyist in recent years.





Here you have on the Croatian language only part of toponyms and hydronym which Slavs and Croats brought from Carpathians

http://www.kapitaltrade.hr/wp-content/uploads/Toponimi-s-Karpata.jpg

.... there was White Croatia particularly in the southern Poland and wider ... there's a source of Croatian I2a haplotype and probably Croatian R1a haplotype, although it is not yet certainly to say for R1a.....

Which are exactly the borders of White Croatia it difficult to determine, this map is obviously based on the names of places and some few historical records that mention Croats in this area, or same names of villages and towns that exist in Croatia....
 
.... there was White Croatia particularly in the southern Poland
There are no White Croats in Poland. There is no region in Poland with this name either.
You can only find White Croatia on Austro-Hungarian maps, because it was their invention to place it in Malopolska, around Krakow.
 
There are no White Croats in Poland. There is no region in Poland with this name either.
You can only find White Croatia on Austro-Hungarian maps, because it was their invention to place it in Malopolska, around Krakow.

Mother of Pope Ivana Pavla II is from the south Poland declared as White Croat...

Croatian main haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356/Z16983 has origin in the southern Poland....

R1a Z280 haplotype which has a majority of Croats with R1a has a large percentage in southern Poland....

It is assumed that Porphyrogenitus mentioned Croats in this area...

Near the town Lviv in southwest Ukraine have been found cities of White Croats, Ukrainian children come there with school trips for exploring the life of White Croats....



Writer Bruno of Querfurt even stated that Red Croatia was neighbour to Kievan Rus' and White Croatia, as well as that Croats were found between the Bug and Dniester rivers.

The most important and earliest major manuscript with information on early Rus' history and of the East Slavs is Nestor's Primary Chronicle, written in the late 11th and early 12th centuries. It is a history of Kievan Rus' from about 850 to 1110 and lists the twelve Slavic tribal unions who by the 9th century settled between the Baltic Sea and the Black Sea. These tribal unions were Polans, Drevlyans, Dregovichs, Radimichs, Vyatichs, Krivichs, Slovens, Dulebes (later known as Volhynians and Buzhans), White Croats,

Some of the north eastern Croats are mentioned as living near the Sozh river which lies within Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, as well as the Oka river which is near modern day Moscow. Remnants of Croats that did not migrate south to today's Croatia circa. 6th and 7th centuries.

In 992 Russian prince Vladimir the Great during his south and western campaigns went against the Croats who still remained near the western border of modern day Ukraine, as well as the Polish marches and other Slavic peoples. Those Croats were also still pagan as Vladimir had just only very recently converted to Christianity.



..Leaving Igor in Kiev, Oleg attacked the Greeks. He took with him a multitude of Varangians, Slavs, Chuds, Krivichians, Merians, Polianians, Severians, Derevlians, Radimichians, Croats, Dulebians, and Tivercians......All these tribes are known as Great Scythia by the Greeks.......The Russians hung their shields upon the gates as a sign of victory, and Oleg then departed from Constantinople...So Oleg came to Kiev, bearing palls, gold, fruit, and wine, along with every sort of adornment....
 
A very old Czech version legend involving two brothers is also known in the Czech Republic. As described by Alois Jirásek in Staré pověsti české, two brothers came to Central Europe from the east: Čech and Lech. As in the Polish version, Čech is identified as the founder of the Czech nation (Češi pl.) and Lech as the founder of the Polish nation. Čech climbed up the mountain Říp, looked around the landscape and settled with a tribe in the area, whereas Lech continued to the lowlands of the north. The two brothers who founded the early Czech and Polish nations lived in Charvátská země (Pronounced the same and meaning Harvatska country, ie: the early White Croatia/Hrvatska) Alois Jirásek believed that this was the original homeland of the Slavs - north of the Tatra Mountains and the basin of the Vistula.


The first chapter of the Old Czech Legends begins: In the Tatras, in the plains of the river Vistula, stretched from time immemorial Charvátská country, part of an initial large Slavic country. Probably this is the territory of the White Croats (Bili Chorvati) that ranged from Ostrava to Lviv and also to Kievan Rus'. It is also known from legends that Kiev with his brothers (Kije and Chorivem) co-founded (each on its hill) Šček (probably Forefather Čech) Some researchers believe that the Slavniks belonged to the White Croats.


Another well known early Slavic legend is the Czech legend of St.Wenceslaus, regarding the early 10th century Czech Duke Wenceslaus. We find that when his mother Drahomira was mourning his death, her other son Boleslav tried to murder her and so she fled to the Croats/Croatia. This would most likely refer to the still present "White Croats" who still inhabited Silesia and/or parts of northern Bohemia rather than the Croatian Kingdom already formed to the south.
 
Mother of Pope Ivana Pavla II is from the south Poland declared as White Croat...
Yes, because this was Austro-Hungarian document. It was A-H political maneuver. They didn't occupy Poland, but they liberated "White Croats" instead. A-H documents didn't say Polak ethnicity, but Bialy Chorwat. That's why polish people from around Kakow ended up classified as White Croats when arrived in USA.

Croatian main haplotype I2a1b2a1a3A356/Z16983 has origin in the southern Poland....
Could you support this with more information?

R1a Z280 haplotype which has a majority of Croats with R1a has a large percentage in southern Poland....
Look at maps M558 and 458 above and you will see that Croats corresponds better with Czechs.

The most important and earliest major manuscript with information on early Rus' history and of the East Slavs is Nestor's Primary Chronicle, written in the late 11th and early 12th centuries. It is a history of Kievan Rus' from about 850 to 1110 and lists the twelve Slavic tribal unions who by the 9th century settled between the Baltic Sea and the Black Sea. These tribal unions were Polans, Drevlyans, Dregovichs, Radimichs, Vyatichs, Krivichs, Slovens, Dulebes (later known as Volhynians and Buzhans), White Croats,
White Croats might have been in the area but we can't pinpoint the location. Czechs and Silesia is the best guess for me.

Some of the north eastern Croats are mentioned as living near the Sozh river which lies within Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, as well as the Oka river which is near modern day Moscow. Remnants of Croats that did not migrate south to today's Croatia circa. 6th and 7th centuries.
Possibly

If you can read polish here are opinions of polish historians and buffs.
http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=14293
 
A very old Czech version legend involving two brothers is also known in the Czech Republic. As described by Alois Jirásek in Staré pověsti české, two brothers came to Central Europe from the east: Čech and Lech. As in the Polish version, Čech is identified as the founder of the Czech nation (Češi pl.) and Lech as the founder of the Polish nation. Čech climbed up the mountain Říp, looked around the landscape and settled with a tribe in the area, whereas Lech continued to the lowlands of the north. The two brothers who founded the early Czech and Polish nations lived in Charvátská země (Pronounced the same and meaning Harvatska country, ie: the early White Croatia/Hrvatska) Alois Jirásek believed that this was the original homeland of the Slavs - north of the Tatra Mountains and the basin of the Vistula.


The first chapter of the Old Czech Legends begins: In the Tatras, in the plains of the river Vistula, stretched from time immemorial Charvátská country, part of an initial large Slavic country. Probably this is the territory of the White Croats (Bili Chorvati) that ranged from Ostrava to Lviv and also to Kievan Rus'. It is also known from legends that Kiev with his brothers (Kije and Chorivem) co-founded (each on its hill) Šček (probably Forefather Čech) Some researchers believe that the Slavniks belonged to the White Croats.


Another well known early Slavic legend is the Czech legend of St.Wenceslaus, regarding the early 10th century Czech Duke Wenceslaus. We find that when his mother Drahomira was mourning his death, her other son Boleslav tried to murder her and so she fled to the Croats/Croatia. This would most likely refer to the still present "White Croats" who still inhabited Silesia and/or parts of northern Bohemia rather than the Croatian Kingdom already formed to the south.
These legends were written down around Twelve century or even later. Thats 700 years after Czech and Lech events. For 700 years they were transferred orally from generation to generation. Tell me how accurate they can be?
 
I can sense a big dose of romanticism in your writing.

These are other documents wich exist and could be taken into consideration ... This is not Romanticism....

When in the southern Poland and wider is mentioned Poland and when the same question applies to the Czech, Slovakia and Ukraine ...Which are historical borders of these countries and in which documents it is written ..
 
These legends were written down around Twelve century or even later. Thats 700 years after Czech and Lech events. For 700 years they were transferred orally from generation to generation. Tell me how accurate they can be?


Would someone remembered Croatian country around the Vistula if does not exist ....
 




https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results

typ-d.jpg




https://www.familytreedna.com/public/dinaric_alps_dna/default.aspx?section=ymap



I. Rozhansky kaže:
2013/10/18

Croats haplogroup R1a represented almost exclusively by the Central Eurasian subclade Z280 (as in the eastern Slavs and Carpathians).

A Croats, Slovenes, and as, most likely, the Serbs dominated by several branches of subsidiaries which have a common label Sneap CTS3402

http://pereformat.ru/2013/10/kolybel-evropejskoj-civilizacii/


I2a1b2a1aS17250/YP204
• • • • • • • •I2a1b2a1a* -
• • • • • • • •I2a1b2a1a1Z16971
• • • • • • • •I2a1b2a1a2Y4882
• • • • • • • •I2a1b2a1a3A356/Z16983

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html

So far, most or all of those who are negative for S17250 have patrilineage
originating near the Carpathians, particularly southeastern Poland and
extreme western Ukraine.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2014-05/1400615460


Even though there are not so many results for the new SNPs for people from Croatia and Serbia, many of these people belong to the "Dinaric-South" group as defined by STRs and I think most of "Dinaric-South" will belong to what our project calls the I-Z16983/A356 group.


I2a1b2a1aS17250/YP204 is ancestor of I2a1b2a1a3A356/Z16983

 
Would someone remembered Croatian country around the Vistula if does not exist ....
Can you produce, pre Austro-Hungarian invasion in 1772, map of Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth with region of White Croatia on it?
 
I recall being told about a TV show on HRT (Croatian national TV channel) about mythic homeland of the Croats. The group went filming towards Slovakia and Poland, but I don't remember the outcome of that search...
 
It can be that M458 (east Slavs - Antes) are refugees from Kyiv region (Polans) far west to Elbe river (via Greater Poland / Wielkopolska and theirs Polanie) and stayed "West Slavs"?
And Slo- Veneti (Venedi) people M558 ("Słowińcy" in Poland, Slovency in Slovenia, Slovaci in Slovakia for example) are still expanded from Elbe to Don (or even Volga) river and to Balkans in different proportions?
Czech Republic has quite small percents descendants of slo-Veneti and quite big number refugees from Ukrainian Kyiv Polans (after Khazars, Huns and others invasions). If genetic data are accurate of course.
Poles, Slovenes and Slovaks have a similar number of slo-Veneti descendants in the whole national population scale = 22%, 32%, 19% while Czechs - 3,5%
Poles, Slovaks and Czechs have big number of Kyiv "Antes" refugees = 30%, 27%, 19% while Slovenes only 4%.
 
I think M558 was the most popular R1A clade also in all three Baltic states. There was one study claiming in Lithuania most of R1A being Z280 (Z92-). Second Z92+ and third M458. And on other forum there was a user who claimed similar distribution was for Estonia with M558 being the main clade (according Underhill he said?). Since around 40% of clades are R1a, and close to 50% are M558 (at least on that study with Lith sample, and being main R1A in Estonia), then in Baltics it should be similar to Poles, Slovenes, Slovaks (c.a. 18-20%).
 

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