New big paper on Catalan Y-DNA

Phoenicians and their Carthaginian successors controlled a fair bit of eastern Spain for a long time, and would presumably have left a considerable genetic footprint. We can argue about what that genetic footprint would have been and the extent to which subsequent historical events would have modified their genetic imprint, but most of eastern Iberia was partially populated by them at one point. It was much more than the occasional trading post. And recognizing the historical accounts of the Carthaginian use of allies and mercenaries in its wars with Rome doesn't mean we should ignore the fact that those same histories mention Hannibal leading his elephants and Carthaginian heavy infantry into Italy. If you have a fear that Carthaginian blood might run in your veins, you should keep those fears to yourself until we have a better idea of what Carthaginian DNA consisted of.

There was no important Phoenician presence in Iberia except in some coastal areas of the south. The Phoenicians were very dependent on the sea for their business. We are not talking about a military power here, but people whose "empire" was based on international trade. As for the Carthaginians, their empire was rather short lived, and the fact that they had to rely heavily on conscripts and mercenaries from other nations to keep their armies well stocked with manpower pretty much tells us that they must not have been very interested in heavily colonizing other lands with their own people. Like most military conquerors throughout history, they were interested in controlling other lands, not in repopulating them with their own folk. As for the comment about "fears" of Carthaginian/Phoenician DNA, it would be best directed at the users who brought these people up in the first place, specially one who got really angry and in denial when it was shown that they were around his country as well.
 
You are still on ignore, but I feel I must comment. Many Iberians have Near Eastern/Levantine DNA entering from the Maghreb...DNA tests prove it, and also history does...Cadiz was founded by Phoenicians...first colony I believe. You have seriously got to get over it.

It's not to say all Iberians do; but the DNA is there...I've studied genealogy for a while; the Basques are the only guaranteed population who have the lowest admixture.




The Phoenicians, Arabs and Sephardic Jews were forced to assimilate. Some of them were threatened with execution by the Roman Catholics. Where did these people run off to; once the Romans came? Back to Lebanon and Israel?


And by the way ... haplogroup R2 is highest in India. So it could have been brought to Iberian peninsula by the Roma people.

If I was really on "ignore" you would not see my posts.

Near Eastern/Levantine DNA is higher in Europe the more East you go, not West. So you should be directing your strange preoccupation with this subject towards those countries, not Spain. I wonder then why you only target Iberians when you have much more "fertile ground" for this topic elsewhere?

The Phoenicians, Arabs and Jews were only small minorities in Iberia, and the last two were in fact heavily expelled by the Inquisition, to top it off. As if that wasn't enough, the Jews who decided to convert to Christianity and stay were very often suspected of remaining "secret Jews" (Crypto Jews) and faced constant harassment and persecution by the same institution. Guess what a lot of these converts did as a result? Yep, the natural thing to do when you have someone constantly bothering you and you can't do much else to stop it: they got fed up and actually ended up leaving Spain for lands where the authorities were not as fixated with them, which included Portugal, the Netherlands, Italy and the Americas.

As for R2, considering how old it is, it could have come with a number of people who also could have brought it elsewhere in Europe.
 
Not to be exactly. Roma lack R2. Only once has R2 been found in Roma group and this was from Roma in Tajikistan which can be explained with that they gained it from locals there. Since R2* is frequent in Tajikistan and is not found in any other Roma group. European Romas have no R2. They have more typical European Haplogroups + H1a.

And about R2 in India. Well it is just the same story as R1a* there. Allot of foundereffect in a huge society but not really much diversity. South_Central Asia has bigger diversity. To be exactly regions like Afghanistan and Pakistan. They have both R2* and R2a* (most common subclade in Western Asia).

So R2 might have different origin in Iberia. Now that I think of. Aren't the Alans documented in Iberia? Ossetians have ~5% R2a.
But also European Jews have quite some R2a. Another explanation is indeed Phoenicians.

Could this be because R2 in India seems predominant in the "upper castes"? Gypsies then would obviously have little of it as they are not from this caste.

As for the Alans: Yes, they were in Spain, and they came from the Caucasus:

Alani_map.jpg

Yet another people you can arbitrarily use to attribute this haplogroup to. It all depends on what the given agenda is.
 
You were on ignore but, I have the option to click to see your posts or not. And I will probably unignore you; as I am beginning to believe this is a major misunderstanding. But I wasn't trouble-making; people took my comments way too seriously. I was just trying to get people to reassure that I was right or wrong in my analysis.

Anyway, I was basically trying to get others here to help reassure myself, of these theories and speculations of Iberians. I never meant to come across as Anti-Iberian or offend people; and I didn't believe literally that they had Arabic admixture. (This was just a saying; like a folk-tale that I had heard from Europeans.) I had thought that this was common-knowledge among Spaniards and Portuguese in their history; for some of them to know they have Phoenician or Arabic admixture. And from my own experiences; I can say Iberians, at least the ones down South; some of them do look like they have a bit of Near Eastern/Maghrebi mixture. But many will disagree.

In my (very amateurish) analogy; a lot of them (Southern Portuguese; Andalusians) look European mixed with Lebanese; in terms of phenotype.

feria_flamencas.jpg

11418676406_e0fe40efcf.jpg

People from the Near East; especially the Lebanese, have a low quantity of Blondism in their populations, as well. (In fact if you google Lebanese people on google images; you will find that the Lebanese look more European than Southern Iberians, ironically. Or look very similar.)
 
I don't understand this "Near East" aversion, honestly. The Near East and Europe are very different in terms of culture and civilization, but there is a huge overlap in terms of genes.
This is a chart from Haak et al 2015:
Lazaridis and Haak resnorm table.JPG

All Europeans except those from far eastern Europe and the Baltic areas are over 50% EN. That's EN not EEF.

The English have 63.8% of it, the Czechs 62.2%, the Norwegians 63.8% (the Germans probably somewhere around there but maybe higher in the south), the French 75.9%. The northern strip of Spain has 80.6%. The rest of Spain has 73.3% but then they needed 12.7% Bedouin to get a good fit, and, as that was used as a proxy for the early farmers in Lazardis et al, is mostly EN too, just with some small trace SSA. I don't know where the NA alleles go, but probably some goes into WHG, some into EN, or maybe the rest of it goes into Bedouin. The northern Italians look like the northern Spanish more or less, the Sicilians like most of the Spaniards but with some more Bedouin, and the Tuscans are in between. The difference between northern Europe and southern Europe in terms of EN seems to be that northern Europe has about 63% and southern Europe has around 80% or more. The Europe that created the Roman and Greek civilizations, the Renaissance, both the Italian one and the northern one, the later Agricultural Revolution, the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution, and on and on, was a Europe composed of people who were at least 60% EN (and some 80%) in terms of genetics.

So do some Europeans truly despise over half of their ancestry? Really? So there's going to be some sort of competition, and whoever has less of it is somehow better? Better in what way? Certainly not in terms of accomplishments or contributions to European Civilization. At least for young American hobbyists, don't they mandate a year long course in Western Civilization anymore?

Or is the issue when it came? Some of it came from the early EEF farmers, some of it came with Yamnaya migrations, some of it came perhaps in other Bronze Age migrations, or, God forbid, in the Iron Age. I don't know what makes a source with the Phoenicians so objectionable when it's the same alleles that came with Bronze Age migrations from the steppe, just not mixed with EHG. Is it just the association of the Phoencians with Semitic languages? Of course, it's probably the trace SSA that is left from the Moorish invasions that makes that invasion so unthinkable.

Honestly, if people can't handle what the genetic data shows and incorporate it into their world view and sense of identity then maybe they just shouldn't bother to be involved at all. It's the same thing I tell anyone who gets their own genome tested. If you don't think you could handle certain results, don't test.
 
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attachment 7118 from post#85 unviewable ( as I am not a member.......a member of what?)
 
The Alans are documented in Iberia; yes. They may have dispersed G2a around the peninsula possibly. I can see that on the G2a maps. Not sure if it's been there since the Neolithic or it was brought with the Alans. Maybe both possibilities. I would have to look up R2 in the population of Alans and Caucasian people in order to confirm a Caucasian origin. Do you have sources?

It's P2* on the list.

https://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/caucasus.pdf
 
Near Eastern/Levantine DNA is higher in Europe the more East you go, not West. So you should be directing your strange preoccupation with this subject towards those countries, not Spain. I wonder then why you only target Iberians when you have much more "fertile ground" for this topic elsewhere?

Not entirely correct. First of all "Near Eastern" does not equal Levantine. Ancient Levantine Near Eastern Farmer ancestry is greater in Southwest Europe+Italy. Peaking in Sardinia going towards Iberia and Italy and getting weaker from there into any directions in and outside Europe. This is why Greeks for example have genetically more Yamna ancestry than Southwest European.

However ancient Zagros_Taurus/Caucasus Near Eastern Pastoralist DNA peaks in Southeast Europe, from the Balkans all the way into Italy, from North Caucasus into East Europe and from Central Europea over to Northwest Europe. It is weakes in Southwest Europe.

If we take both ancestries together however together however than the East has more Western Asian genes compared toB Southwest. The Western Asian DNA in Southwest Europe being almost completely Levantine like while the Western Asian DNA in Italy and Soueastern Europe showing stronger traces Yamna Zagros_Taurus pastoralist DNA.
 
attachment 7118 from post#85 unviewable ( as I am not a member.......a member of what?)

Were you logged on? Try it again.

Sile, I do have a name, btw.
 
Were you logged on? Try it again.

Sile, I do have a name, btw.

I had to have been logged on to write my post


still does not work, below is message
[h=2]vBulletin Message
[/h]Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator
 
? P2 is part of the E haplogroup

? P2 is the old name of R2.

P is ancestral to R and Q. Is there some misunderstanding?
 
I had to have been logged on to write my post


still does not work, below is message
vBulletin Message


Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator

Same here.
 
Okay guys, I dumped some of my attachments...see if it works now. I thought this was all over already...
Lazaridis and Haak resnorm table.JPG
 
You were on ignore but, I have the option to click to see your posts or not. And I will probably unignore you; as I am beginning to believe this is a major misunderstanding. But I wasn't trouble-making; people took my comments way too seriously. I was just trying to get people to reassure that I was right or wrong in my analysis.

Anyway, I was basically trying to get others here to help reassure myself, of these theories and speculations of Iberians. I never meant to come across as Anti-Iberian or offend people; and I didn't believe literally that they had Arabic admixture. (This was just a saying; like a folk-tale that I had heard from Europeans.) I had thought that this was common-knowledge among Spaniards and Portuguese in their history; for some of them to know they have Phoenician or Arabic admixture. And from my own experiences; I can say Iberians, at least the ones down South; some of them do look like they have a bit of Near Eastern/Maghrebi mixture. But many will disagree.

In my (very amateurish) analogy; a lot of them (Southern Portuguese; Andalusians) look European mixed with Lebanese; in terms of phenotype.

View attachment 7119

View attachment 7120

People from the Near East; especially the Lebanese, have a low quantity of Blondism in their populations, as well. (In fact if you google Lebanese people on google images; you will find that the Lebanese look more European than Southern Iberians, ironically. Or look very similar.)

I am not sure if you are doing this deliberately or what is going on, but you go from sounding more or less "normal" to going back to making outlandish claims that have all the look of someone wanting to provoke others. To pretend that Lebanese look more "European" than southern Iberians is a nice example of this lunacy and "out of touchness" with reality. Once again I have to call your bluff. "Lebanese people" in Google Images:

https://www.google.com/search?q="le...a=X&ei=K0nxVPj7DYGfyAT2hYDoBQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ


"Andalusian people" ("Andaluces" in Spanish, which is a search term that will bring up more balanced results, not American tourists' ideas about the subject, which is basically Gypsies dancing Flamenco) on Google Images:

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=i...0.msedr...0...1c.1.62.img..0.1.72.ZRbZmhGVsOg

And for a proper perspective, also Google Images results for "Greek people" for samples of another southern European population:

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=i...msedr...0...1c.1.62.img..1.14.873.FQ5kqEhFfm4

Unless you are severely blind, there is no way anyone could possibly claim that on average Lebanese look more "European" than Andalusians. Looking at pictures of large numbers of both peoples will clear up the matter very quickly. As logic and common sense dictate, Lebanese look like what they are: Levantines. Andalusians are just rather average southern Europeans.
 
I am not sure if you are doing this deliberately or what is going on, but you go from sounding more or less "normal" to going back to making outlandish claims that have all the look of someone wanting to provoke others. To pretend that Lebanese look more "European" than southern Iberians is a nice example of this lunacy and "out of touchness" with reality. Once again I have to call your bluff. "Lebanese people" in Google Images:

https://www.google.com/search?q="le...a=X&ei=K0nxVPj7DYGfyAT2hYDoBQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ


"Andalusian people" ("Andaluces" in Spanish, which is a search term that will bring up more balanced results, not American tourists' ideas about the subject, which is basically Gypsies dancing Flamenco) on Google Images:

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=i...0.msedr...0...1c.1.62.img..0.1.72.ZRbZmhGVsOg

And for a proper perspective, also Google Images results for "Greek people" for samples of another southern European population:

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=i...msedr...0...1c.1.62.img..1.14.873.FQ5kqEhFfm4

Unless you are severely blind, there is no way anyone could possibly claim that on average Lebanese look more "European" than Andalusians. Looking at pictures of large numbers of both peoples will clear up the matter very quickly. As logic and common sense dictate, Lebanese look like what they are: Levantines. Andalusians are just rather average southern Europeans.
There was no provoking ... I'm not provoking anyone. I was just giving you a perspective. All you are doing is insulting people and self-projecting; also while denying the genetic evidence and perspectives people give you. You are seeing intentions that aren't there; and calling me and others out, based on your own prejudices..

And you accuse people without any basis or reasoning; and twist peoples' words, to fit-in with your delusional view. That is how I know you have a guilt-complex regarding this issue. It is a fact that Southern Iberians have Phoenician and Arabic ancestry; as well as Sephardic Jewish...did you not read Maciamo's thread? It doesn't matter the percentage of admixture; but it is definitely there, and definitely significant.

Keep up with these predetermined beliefs and baseless accusations against people; this is called slander and defamation. Don't think I am insulting or setting you up now; I am just being blunt. If you have a problem with someone disagreeing with you; then don't go out of your way trying to make them look bad. Keep your statements to yourself. end.
 
? P2 is the old name of R2.

P is ancestral to R and Q. Is there some misunderstanding?

I know P is father of R and Q and M and S

but P2 is a SNP of E haplogroup
 
There was no provoking ... I'm not provoking anyone. I was just giving you a perspective. All you are doing is insulting people and self-projecting; also while denying the genetic evidence and perspectives people give you. You are seeing intentions that aren't there; and calling me and others out, based on your own prejudices..

And you accuse people without any basis or reasoning; and twist peoples' words, to fit-in with your delusional view. That is how I know you have a guilt-complex regarding this issue. It is a fact that Southern Iberians have Phoenician and Arabic ancestry; as well as Sephardic Jewish...did you not read Maciamo's thread? It doesn't matter the percentage of admixture; but it is definitely there, and definitely significant.

Keep up with these predetermined beliefs and baseless accusations against people; this is called slander and defamation. Don't think I am insulting or setting you up now; I am just being blunt.

No, of course it is you and no one else who is trying to provoke a reaction when you write ridiculous things like this: In fact if you google Lebanese people on google images; you will find that the Lebanese look more European than Southern Iberians, ironically.

And also stop trying to be disingenuous by trying to conjure up anything that Maciamo says as if it was some sort of God-given truth. He did not give any definitive answers, just possible explanations. And by the way, he also uses similar possible explanations for other populations, including the British people that you pretend to be related with:

There may also have been Near Eastern merchants, like the Jews, whose diaspora started soon after the Roman conquest of Britain. Ancient Mediterranean people would have carried mostly haplogroups such as E1b1b, J1, J2a, and to a lower extent also G2a and T.

http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/britain_ireland_dna.shtml

Which is of course perfectly easy to back up with historical and archaeological sources, as it is well known that the Roman conquest of Britain (at a time when its armies alone were predominantly made up of non-Romans, unlike its earlier armies) brought people from all over the empire there, including from Africa and the Near East. Example:

http://www.theguardian.com/culture/charlottehigginsblog/2009/oct/13/hadrians-wall

So, will we see you anytime soon going into threads about Brits carrying your bizarre fixation with Near Eastern DNA and telling them how they are not "white" or "European" too? Somehow I am 99.9% sure you won't.

You are not fooling anyone, kid. Your little obsession with southern Iberians is pretty self-evident. Give it a rest.
 
I know P is father of R and Q and M and S

but P2 is a SNP of E haplogroup

I see, but back in 2004 p2* was the name used for R2.

And as I see they have changed the names once again. Few Years ago R2 was typically divided into R2a and R2*. But now most of these R2 are under R2a* too (R2a1 vs R2a1a vs R2a2 etc).

In East Europe R2/a seems to be mostly connected to Jewish, North Caucasic/Ossetian and Turkic people. I don't know about West Europe.

The only R2 sample from Iberia on the ftDNA map is found in Galicia. And surname is Fernandez.
 
And also stop trying to be disingenuous by trying to conjure up anything that Maciamo says as if it was some sort of God-given truth. He did not give any definitive answers, just possible explanations.
Oh really?

Anyway the presence of haplogroup R2 in Catalonia confirms that some people of Phoenician descent ended up in Catalonia. Nobody else could have brought R2.

So, will we see you anytime soon going into threads about Brits carrying your bizarre fixation with Near Eastern DNA and telling them how they are not "white" or "European" too? Somehow I am 99.9% sure you won't.
Because there is no reason to. LOL. Please stop with this.

What you are doing is called "slander" with your baseless accusations and ad hominem attacks. If you keep this up; there may be repercussions.
 

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