New big paper on Catalan Y-DNA

[Drac II]

No, they weren't. Cause I'm talking about recent admixture due to migration centuries ago. Early European Farmers have nothing to do with current European ethnicity. All Caucasians have EEF. And this also has absolutely nothing to do with the Y-DNA haplogroups in Andalusia and Southern Portugal that suggest a recent Levantine ethnic contribution...such as J1 or Q1b...or mtdna U6....which you have failed to explain their presence/origin.

Again, learn to read, because when Maciamo/Eupedia considers things like Jews or other Middle Eastern immigrants in Britain during Roman times as a possible source for the presence of some of the Near Eastern DNA found there, for example, he is obviously not talking about things from prehistoric times.

And no, there is no proof whatsoever that any of those haplogroups in southern Iberia must be from recent times either. Once again, Maciamo/Eupedia is simply offering possible explanations, not definitive answers. The only one who keeps failing to provide any proof of the sort is you.

 

[Alan]

As for comments that Levantines look more European than Spaniards or other southern Europeans, it's patently absurd and meant to provoke certain people, and comments like that need to STOP.

tbh I thought that he mean some Lebanese can look in the North Europeans eyes more "European" than average South Iberians.

I agree to claim that Lebanese look more "European" than Europeans is absurd.

 

[Drac II]

Well I'm not the one who is being willfully ignorant. There is no provocation whatsoever...the DNA evidence is there, and people are too lazy to acknowledge it.


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.shtml


J1 in Iberia:

Based on very limited data, the main Lebanese subclades of J1 appear to be J1-YSC234 and J1-YSC76. Both subclades have also been found in Sicily, Andalusia and Portugal, which suggests that they were already found among the Phoenicians. However, since the Arabs conquered the same regions as those colonised by the Phoenicians, it is too early to reach such a conclusion.



http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_Q_Y-DNA.shtml

Q1b:

Q1b1a (L245): found in the Middle East, among the Jews, in Central Europe and in Sicily

Q1b1a1 (L272.1): found in Sicily (probably Phoenician)

Once again, words like "probably" and "suggests" seem to fly over your head. This is not "proof" of anything, merely a suggestion based on something that is plausible, but not necessarily the only answer.

Oh, and notice Central Europe also listed in the middle of a haplogroup (Q1b1a) typically found among Jews of the Middle East and Sicilians. Nice way of shooting yourself in the foot there. Instead of accusing others of being "lazy" you should try to follow your own "advice" and actually bother reading your own sources.

 

[Alan]

not all J1 in Iberia is "Semite" type. notice that roughly half of it is not J1c3d but belong to other subclades probably brought in by Alans.

 

[Melancon]

Once again, words like "probably" and "suggests" seem to fly over your head. This is not "proof" of anything, merely a suggestion based on something that is plausible, but not necessarily the only answer.

Oh, and notice Central Europe also listed in the middle of a haplogroup (Q1b1a) typically found among Jews of the Middle East and Sicilians. Nice way of shooting yourself in the foot there. Instead of accusing others of being "lazy" you should try to follow your own "advice" and actually bother reading your own sources.

Continuous ad hominem provocative arguments deserve no response. I did not shoot myself in the foot because I did not claim whether Central Europeans had Levantine admixture or not.

"This is not "proof" of anything, merely a suggestion based on something that is plausible, but not necessarily the only answer."

So what is your conclusion? That it's all just a bunch of misinformation? That you probably know more than the genealogists do? By the way, Maciamo does not get his theories and information from himself. He gets them from an external source.

 

[Melancon]

not all J1 in Iberia is "Semite" type. notice that roughly half of it is not J1c3d but belong to other subclades probably brought in by Alans.

That is most likely a reality. But there is a good chance that many subclades are Levantine in origin. Naturally and understandably; it is easy to get confused.

 

[Drac II]

Continuous ad hominem provocative arguments deserve no response. I did not shoot myself in the foot because I did not claim whether Central Europeans had Levantine admixture or not.

Yes, you did, in the other thread your intentions were very clear, you wanted to single out southern Iberians as the only "non-Europeans" on the continent and this based on a rather twisted attempt to use Maciamo/Eupedia's conjectures for your own agenda. You might be changing your tune now, though, as you have been forced to read other things that Maciamo/Eupedia also say about other areas of Europe regarding this topic.

 

[Melancon]

Yes, you did, in the other thread your intentions were very clear, you wanted to single out southern Iberians as the only "non-Europeans" on the continent and this based on a rather twisted attempt to use Maciamo/Eupedia's conjectures for your own agenda. You might be changing your tune now, though, as you have been forced to read other things that Maciamo/Eupedia also say about other areas of Europe regarding this topic.

There was no agenda. As I said before; it was only speculation that I had heard from other Europeans. I did not mean "Arabs" literally; it was a metaphor from the rumors I had heard. It is not important whether or not Southern Iberians have Levantine admixture; but if there was genetic evidence, it would be an interesting footprint of history.

What's the agenda? The only non-Europeans on the continent. I don't understand what you are talking about...

 

[Drac II]

There were no such claims. I was repeating what had already been posted here. But you are too lazy to consider the evidence. You are delusional.

You misunderstand everything I say; and continue pushing your own agenda, while being willfully ignorant. Near Eastern farmers (EEF) have nothing to do with current ethnicity. And you accuse me of being Anti-Iberian and provocative based on my own humble analysis and perspectives; so therefore you are the one who is provoking people; not I. And you accuse not only me, but also Sile of being prejudiced against Phoenicians or Carthaginians; when in reality this is probably (most likely) your own tendency. It would explain to me why you are so defensive against this possible reality. (For Iberians to have this admixture.)

I have always wanted to know these things for myself, because as I always said before; Europeans have always told me that Andalusians, Southern Portuguese (southern Iberians) weren't "white European" like they were. I don't have to be an anti-iberian to admit that...


You said that Maciamo merely gives possible explanations...not confirmations. But that he made one mistake with Y-DNA R2...But apparently I am someone who can't make mistakes either. So you therefore have contradicted yourself, by continuously accusing, attacking and provoking me with baseless arguments...

Do you believe anything some clueless people tell you? There's Europeans/Americans/Australians who also say the same thing about Greeks, Southern Italians, Albanians, Bulgarians, Romanians, etc. not being "white European".

 

[Melancon]

Do you believe anything some clueless people tell you? There's Europeans/Americans/Australians who also say the same thing about Greeks, Southern Italians, Albanians, Bulgarians, Romanians, etc. not being "white European".

I have interviewed and talked to Spaniards and Andalusians Spaniards myself who have admitted to me to believing that they have non-European admixture...

 

[Drac II]

There was no agenda. As I said before; it was only speculation that I had heard from other Europeans. I did not mean "Arabs" literally; it was a metaphor from the rumors I had heard. It is not important whether or not Southern Iberians have Levantine admixture; but if there was genetic evidence, it would be an interesting footprint of history.

What's the agenda? The only non-Europeans on the continent. I don't understand what you are talking about...

I am referring to what you were claiming in the other thread, parts of which you also carried into this thread. But like I said in the previous post, maybe you are changing your opinion now that you have been shown a number of things regarding the subject. Things are not as clear-cut as you might have thought.

 

[Drac II]

I have interviewed and talked to Spaniards and Andalusians Spaniards myself who have admitted to me to believing that they have non-European admixture...

You can also find people from other countries in Europe thinking the same thing. Does it make it true, though? Don't underestimate how ignorant some people can be about their own origins/history.

 

[Sile]

Excellent post, one of the most thoughtful I've seen on this page. I always find it amusing how so many threads on Eupedia turn to the classic, heated debate about the presence of the "undesirable" Moorish/Arabic/Jewish/Carthaginian elements in the genetic makeup of Iberians. On one side, you always have non-Iberians more or less subtly attempting to provoke Spaniards and Portuguese with statements or hints that Iberians have a close genetic affinity with those peoples from the southern and eastern shores of the Mediterranean; offering them furious battle, the Iberians, always so incredibly ready to bite the bait and so eager to prove at all costs that they have not a single drop of non-European blood - alternatively, when against the ropes, they "accuse" others of having undesirable blood too, as if not to be alone and "drag" others down with them (typically, Italians), even if NO ONE is talking about these other ethnic groups.

As I've mentioned here before, most people just don't want to associate themselves with "inferiors" (economically, socially, culturally, technologically etc); they only want to be related to the "winners". That's why so many Anglophones (especially genealogists) claim Norman ancestry, even if the Norman genetic impact in England was probably as minimal as the one left by Moors in Spain; that's why Indians of higher castes claim to be Aryans, even if they are thoroughly mixed with native Dravidian populations; that's why many Latin Americans, particularly from Spanish-speaking countries, try to associate themselves with Spain, even if they are, on the most part, mixed with Native Americans and/or Africans (this phenomenon is less common in Brazil, because Portugal, much smaller than Spain in every aspect, doesn't really evoke a great deal of interest or of admiration among Brazilians); that's why Iberians will gladly accept - or at least, will not refute - someone saying that they have partial Visigothic or Suevi blood, but will have a heart attack if someone mentions anything about Moors, and so on.

Self-esteem. It all comes down to that.

I know what you mean...I am trying to figure out how the berber/moors built all those dozens of huge buildings in Spain in so few years and leave no genetic marker............maybe they used only women so no genetic marker could remain

I think Drac is only dreaming of his world for spain

 

[Melancon]

Do you believe anything some clueless people tell you? There's Europeans/Americans/Australians who also say the same thing about Greeks, Southern Italians, Albanians, Bulgarians, Romanians, etc. not being "white European".

Why does it seem like you have a problem with Iberians having Levantine admixture, anyway? I believe that you are holding an agenda of your own and are self-projecting. It is a reality that some Spaniards have Levantine admixture; some Sephardic Jews were forced to convert to Roman Catholicism or be executed. History shows that this is true and so do genetics. It seems to me you may be self-projecting your own prejudices onto others and accusing others.

 

[Melancon]

Excellent post, one of the most thoughtful I've seen on this page. I always find it amusing how so many threads on Eupedia turn to the classic, heated debate about the presence of the "undesirable" Moorish/Arabic/Jewish/Carthaginian elements in the genetic makeup of Iberians. On one side, you always have non-Iberians more or less subtly attempting to provoke Spaniards and Portuguese with statements or hints that Iberians have a close genetic affinity with those peoples from the southern and eastern shores of the Mediterranean; offering them furious battle, the Iberians, always so incredibly ready to bite the bait and so eager to prove at all costs that they have not a single drop of non-European blood - alternatively, when against the ropes, they "accuse" others of having undesirable blood too, as if not to be alone and "drag" others down with them (typically, Italians), even if NO ONE is talking about these other ethnic groups.

As I've mentioned here before, most people just don't want to associate themselves with "inferiors" (economically, socially, culturally, technologically etc); they only want to be related to the "winners". That's why so many Anglophones (especially genealogists) claim Norman ancestry, even if the Norman genetic impact in England was probably as minimal as the one left by Moors in Spain; that's why Indians of higher castes claim to be Aryans, even if they are thoroughly mixed with native Dravidian populations; that's why many Latin Americans, particularly from Spanish-speaking countries, try to associate themselves with Spain, even if they are, on the most part, mixed with Native Americans and/or Africans (this phenomenon is less common in Brazil, because Portugal, much smaller than Spain in every aspect, doesn't really evoke a great deal of interest or of admiration among Brazilians); that's why Iberians will gladly accept - or at least, will not refute - someone saying that they have partial Visigothic or Suevi blood, but will have a heart attack if someone mentions anything about Moors, and so on.

Self-esteem. It all comes down to that.

This is the funniest post ever. A bunch of Iberians being uptight about their own heritage and arguing over nonsense.

 

[Drac II]

I know what you mean...I am trying to figure out how the berber/moors built all those dozens of huge buildings in Spain in so few years and leave no genetic marker............maybe they used only women so no genetic marker could remain

I think Drac is only dreaming of his world for spain

You seem puzzled by things that have very simple answers: by taking over already existing buildings (like Cathedrals) and using them for themselves, by using local labor to build new ones (done by virtually every empire in history), as well as aided by an ever increasing number of natives who converted to Islam. The exact same reason why you have dozens and dozens of such Islamic buildings all over the Middle East, North Africa, the Balkans and even parts of Asia. Or do you seriously think they were all built by "Arabs"? Before they invaded other areas of the world, spreading their religion in the process, there were no Islamic buildings anywhere but in the Arabian Peninsula. By the 8th century AD there were already Mosques in places as far apart as Cordoba and Xi'an (China.)

 

[Drac II]

Why does it seem like you have a problem with Iberians having Levantine admixture, anyway? I believe that you are holding an agenda of your own and are self-projecting. It is a reality that some Spaniards have Levantine admixture; some Sephardic Jews were forced to convert to Roman Catholicism or be executed. History shows that this is true and so do genetics. It seems to me you may be self-projecting your own prejudices onto others and accusing others.

I am bothered by manipulation, exaggerations and lies, and what you are trying, or were trying, to do is just that, or at least that is certainly the impression it gave. I don't know from where some people are getting this ridiculous idea that Iberians should be the only people in the world who have to stay quiet and do nothing when someone comes around and starts making incorrect claims or saying deliberate lies about their history, looks and/or genetics. When someone tries to do the same to other nationalities no one makes any such bizarre comments and objections when they defend themselves and set the record straight. It seems some people are deeply bothered only when Iberians do it, as if they should accept any nonsense claims thrown at them. Sorry, but this is highly unrealistic and it just ain't gonna happen. You bet Iberians will have a saying in such matters.

About the Jews: they were only like 1 - 3% of the population of the Iberian Peninsula. Even if all of them had been "absorbed" (which they weren't), they would hardly have been a significant demographic contribution to the Iberian gene pool.

 

[Maleth]

As I've mentioned here before, most people just don't want to associate themselves with "inferiors" (economically, socially, culturally, technologically etc); they only want to be related to the "winners".

Self-esteem. It all comes down to that.

I believe that there was nothing inferior in Southern Spain during the Moorish occupation at that time and age. (Time and age is not something that people can digest easily by the way) but very much to the contrary. Flourishing arts, education, maths, astrology, medicine and farming techniques all way ahead of what is known to be found in the rest of Europe during this era.

The Alhambra is an architectural marvel in itself that not even queen Isabelle who was adamant to remove every trace of moorish occupation simply could not do it. The region was a well known intellectual and learning centre in the known world, so hardly inferior. If sofa google searching amateur 'historians' compare the moors of Spain at the time with the latest Radical Islam news item on main stream media then I can understand the confusion.

 

[Melancon]

I am bothered by manipulation, exaggerations and lies, and what you are trying, or were trying, to do is just that, or at least that is certainly the impression it gave. I don't know from where some people are getting this ridiculous idea that Iberians should be the only people in the world who have to stay quiet and do nothing when someone comes around and starts making incorrect claims or saying deliberate lies about their history, looks and/or genetics. When someone tries to do the same to other nationalities no one makes any such bizarre comments and objections when they defend themselves and set the record straight. It seems some people are deeply bothered only when Iberians do it, as if they should accept any nonsense claims thrown at them. Sorry, but this is highly unrealistic and it just ain't gonna happen. You bet Iberians will have a saying in such matters.

About the Jews: they were only like 1 - 3% of the population of the Iberian Peninsula. Even if all of them had been "absorbed" (which they weren't), they would hardly have been a significant demographic contribution to the Iberian gene pool.

There was no manipulation and lies. Do you really think I care enough about Iberians to lie about them? You are paranoid.

But your insecurities really give people on this board something to laugh about. Look kid, Stop with the baseless accusation against people; I don't care and I'm sure others certainly don't either.

 

[Degredado]

I believe that there was nothing inferior in Southern Spain during the Moorish occupation at that time and age. (Time and age is not something that people can digest easily by the way) but very much to the contrary. Flourishing arts, education, maths, astrology, medicine and farming techniques all way ahead of what is known to be found in the rest of Europe during this era.

The Alhambra is an architectural marvel in itself that not even queen Isabelle who was adamant to remove every trace of moorish occupation simply could not do it. The region was a well known intellectual and learning centre in the known world, so hardly inferior. If sofa google searching amateur 'historians' compare the moors of Spain at the time with the latest Radical Islam news item on main stream media then I can understand the confusion.

I agree with you. When I spoke of societies that tend to be regarded by some as "inferior", in one way or another, I meant that from a contemporary perspective. Muslims once had the largest empire in the world, were the leading people in sciences and education and had Europe's most thriving learning center in Cordoba. But how many people know or remember that today? In our days, when people think of the Middle East or Africa, they mostly think of religious fanaticism, economic issues, shocking cultural habits, endless wars, dictatorships, political instability... many people feel uncomfortable to associate themselves with that.

There's another factor: the Moors were eventually utterly defeated and expelled from Iberia. If this hadn't happened, i.e., had the Moors managed to successfully lock themselves in their castles without ever being expelled (as was the case with the Normans in England) and if the current elites of Spain still traced their origins to those Moorish invaders, I have no doubts that the average Iberian would feel much less awkward about the Moorish legacy in Spain, for the simple fact that it would (still) be the legacy of conquerors.