Origins of the Armenians during the Bronze Age

Armenian language is closer to Greek language than to other languages.
Today Greeks of Greece are a mix of Roman Slavic and some descedants of Ancient Greeks.
So we should look to Magna Grecia(South Italy)
You can find G2a-M406 E1b-V13 and G2a-L140*
and among western and central Armenians and among Southern Italians(Magna Grecia)
and in Greece


Also Armenians have UHG which are "Unknown"(Balkanian and west Anatolian) hunter gatherers more than other southern Caucasians
UHG is part of EEF
EEF corelates with G2a

Part of Z2103 is among Armenians from Indo-Iranized population that earlier was "Proto-Eastern Caucasians",
"Proto-Eastern Caucasians" came from Siberia and are part of Dene-Caucasians,
the other part of Z2103 is possibly from Urartians(also Dene-Caucasians)
 
Alan said:
It is likely that some Sumerians went North and admixed. It is unlikely that they became Urartains, Urartains are generally connected to Hurrians. Hurrians and Urartains are connected to Northeast Caucasic tongues (Lezgian as example) with Indo_Iranian charecteristics. Sumerian is an isolated language, therfore not ancestral to Urartaen.
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See Eric Hamp's 2012 map...

Eastward expansion and no slingshot around Balkens. If Greeks arrive in Greece at 3rd millennium bc then Armenian would have a much older presence in timeline.
 
That later point doesn't fit time line. If you look at timeline, Armenian exist before Iranian presence. It would mean that the roles you assign are reverse. There is Iranian contact but at a much later date.

I beleive everyone is trying their best to place Armenian much later in the timeline contrary to the evidence which points to a much earlier date.
 
Robert6 said:
Phrygians came to Anatolia in 1600-1700 BC or even earlier
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nop

Historically they left just with the raise of Makedonian Kingdom meaning 750 BC, leaving behind Mygdonians
but evidences show same time with Dorian descend 1000-900 BC (911 BC)

Certainly after Troyan War which dates after 1200 BC
 
Hauteville said:
Phrygians were also related to ancient Thracians and Macedonians for ancient Greek tradition. For Eric Hamp they were instead a branch of Italo-Celts. Now it seems that Phrygian language was close to ancient Greek.
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Vrygian and Greek were isotones,
but Greeks call them Thracians,

not Celts but Thracians,
by their remain vocabulary
Tios Bakhos Διος Βακχου slavic Bog (God)
Bekos Germanic? bread Brot Slavic Pekara !!!

by times they connect them with Brigandi or with Burgundi, but since closer to Yamnaa I personaly belive that both Brigandi and Burgundi came from Thracian Brygians
 
Arame said:
The Balkanic theory was once very popular because it was thought that the origin of IE is in Balkan. So many linguists tried to reconstruct the routes of migrations for various languages. The evidence for Armenian was weak. Just a sentence from Herodotus and some toponomic links.
The Armenian language didn't help to understand the Phrygian inscriptions. Despite the fact that the hypothetical split of Phrygian and Armenian occured less than 1000 years ago. Less than the split of Romance languages. Later it appeared that Phrygian is much closer to Greek, so perhaps it was the an old split of proto-Greek people.

Now with Yamna R1b-Z2013 there is a further evidence that the South Caucase and Yamna have much closer and direct contacts than was thought before. And there is no a need to make a circle around Black Sea to come to Armenia from Yamna.

Also look at the mtDNA of Yamna people and compare it with South Caucasus.

p.s. I answered about this questions in more detaled way here. eupedia.com/forum/threads/28916-The-Indo-European-migrations-to-Armenia
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there 2 major hypothesis in minor asian balkan caucas origin of IE,
1 is the Greco-Aryan the language from wich Homeric sprunk
2 is the Armenian hypothesis which is connecting Thracian and Armenian to an older language,

in both theories indo-Hettit is consider as a foreign language to area
 
Yetos said:
nop

Historically they left just with the raise of Makedonian Kingdom meaning 750 BC, leaving behind Mygdonians
but evidences show same time with Dorian descend 1000-900 BC (911 BC)

Certainly after Troyan War which dates after 1200 BC
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No, the Phrygians were in western Anatolia before the Deucalion's Flood (and not only, the Bryges were also in Balkans)
Annakos King of Phrygians lived in Anatolia before the ~1500BC


Also the Phrygians helped Troyans
when the Axaioi Danaoi Mirmidones and others attacked them
 
Robert6 said:
No, the Phrygians were in western Anatolia before the Deucalion's Flood (and not only, the Bryges were also in Balkans)
Annakos King of Phrygians lived in Anatolia before the ~1500BC


Also the Phrygians helped Troyans
when the Axaioi Danaoi Mirmidones and others attacked them
Click to expand...

bryges bythini are mentioned to enter minor asia after Troyan war,
Gordium Γορδιον was build after 1200 BC meaning after Troyan war and took its high peak at 900-700 BC same times when Dorians descend to damaged S Greece from sea peoples, and same time that Sea peoples moved to West, and same time Argeiad Makedonians raise their Kingdom assimilating Mygdonians and Bottiaeans,

there is also the Moschoi(thracian in minor Asia) Moeschoi(moesian in Romania/bulgaria) case, and the possible connection with Mucenae and Myssia (the 4 Mycenae or 4 Muca or Mossia, compare Scottish Mc,)
a word that stll found in Armenian. (from Duridanovic work)

the assyrians call them Mushki
Makedonian infatry wear Brygian cap and claim relativity since they both lived for centuries beside,
Alexander respect and sacrifice to Gordion


but there is a mention that king Priam of troy raid against amazon with king Mygdon, in Homer's Iliad

but Mygdonia was next to Makedonia and assimilated by them before 5th century BC
 
Yetos
Excuse me I didn't understand Your point quite well. Where is in Your opinion the most probable origin of Indo-European languages?

P.S. I am relying on Yamna-Steppe theory.
 
Arame said:
Yetos
Excuse me I didn't understand Your point quite well. Where is in Your opinion the most probable origin of Indo-European languages?

P.S. I am relying on Yamna-Steppe theory.
Click to expand...


for me?
or about the linguistic theories?

for me is among Laz and Leyla teppe,

but the Linguistic Hypothesis have nothing to do, they just combine languages to a relativity to find previous forms
so the 2 compinations that are connecting Balkans with minor Asia, at least in Linguistic field are
Greco-Aryan Hypothesis
Armenian Hypothesis (Thracian)
so if I take the Armenian Hypothesis, there might be a possible genetic relativity among Thracians and Armenians
that is what I want to say,

I hope I did not confuse you more,
 
Ok thanks Yetos. Now I understand Your point.
I have also some data in support of Leyla Tepe, but because this is another Big story so I don't want to start such a discussion here. I am waiting the result of ancient DNA from Armenia. Just now I am relying on the mainstream Steppe theory.

For the connection of Armenians and Balkans and Greece in general I am not denying such affinities. Hrachya Martirosyan is speaking about a general Mediterenean substatum that unites Armenian, Greece and even Latines. Greco-Aryan unity is also a possibilty. So all this are possibilities. But saying that Armenian language appeared after 1200 BC is a ultimate impossibility from every point ( linguistic, genetic ).
 
Probably a bit earlier but for sure after 1200. They found the Hittite empire either collapsed or collapsing and took over it.
 
Phrygian is closely related to Greek as is Paeonian and of course Macedonian, if it is even to be considered a separate language. I would not discount what Herodotus is saying about the linguistic and cultural affinity of the Armenians and the Phrygians. Today it is proven that Greek and Armenian are more closely related to each other than to any other language, despite the massive Iranian loanwords into Armenian. I have personally met Eric Hamp years ago who assured me that Greek and Armenian are sharing a vast lexicon and he jokingly mentioned a few including Arni (young sheep) which in Armenian is something like warnu, or similar (many years since), and he believed in what he calls a Greco-Armenian Group.
 
Thracian cannot be proven related to Armenian, and there is simply no lexical or other proof of it. It can be proven to be related to Greek and Greek has been proven to be related to Phrygian, therefore Armenian is related to Phrygian, something that makes sence on a historical point too.
 
eismakedon said:
Phrygian is closely related to Greek as is Paeonian and of course Macedonian, if it is even to be considered a separate language. I would not discount what Herodotus is saying about the linguistic and cultural affinity of the Armenians and the Phrygians. Today it is proven that Greek and Armenian are more closely related to each other than to any other language, despite the massive Iranian loanwords into Armenian. I have personally met Eric Hamp years ago who assured me that Greek and Armenian are sharing a vast lexicon and he jokingly mentioned a few including Arni (young sheep) which in Armenian is something like warnu, or similar (many years since), and he believed in what he calls a Greco-Armenian Group.
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Arni a Greek word?
Have you any source text even at koine that says the lamp Arni and not Amnos?

Ι admit I am surprised, since in all Ancient texts I read I find the word amnos αμνος,
Although it exists in Modern Greek, but in ancient,,, that is why I ask a text,
I really apreciate such text, cause can help a lot
 
nothing just misshandle
 
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