further continuation of Haak paper 2015

Maciamo said:
Keep in mind that there is very little genetic data from France at the moment. I wouldn't be surprised if P312 had a higher genetic diversity in France. The Alps are difficult to cross, so P312 more likely went straight from Germany to France (no natural border except the Rhine).
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Lame excuse.

There are more French samples aviable than Italian ones.

Look how the map shows that L21 and DF27 have the highest diversity in France, and both came from the Italian P312.
 
Maciamo said:
The Alps are difficult to cross
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Not anywhere. There are many passages: one between France and Italy near the coast (Provence/Cote d'Azur and Liguria). Others between Italy and Switzerland (Piedmont, Lombardy and Canton Ticino), Italy and Austria (Trentino-Alto Adige, Veneto, Friuli and Styria, Tyrol, Carinthia) and Italy and former Yugoslavia.
 
Frequencies of SLC45A2 (rs16891982 - skin pigmentation) among Europeans

Frequencies of Allele G for light skin.

Norwegians: 98%
Poles: 98%
Finns: 96%
North Italians from Verona: 94%
Spaniards from Madrid: 92%
Greeks from Thessaloniki: 86%
Spaniards from all over Spain (including islanders): 82%
Germans from Lower Saxony (which ironically is in reality one of the lightest areas of Germany): 66%

Source: ALFRED alleles and 1000genomes.
 
giuseppe rossi said:
It's more likely that R1b-DF27 arrived in Iberia from Italy, rather than from Central Europe.

The highest diversity of R1b-P312 is in Italy.

Early_R1b_Copper_Age_Migrations_v02.png


Didn't they find Tuscan like farmers in Iberia lately?

It looks like modern Iberians are mostly a mix of Sardinian/Tuscan like neolitich/copper age farmers and local Mesolitich hunther gatherers, who had already elevated levels of ANE admixture.
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2200 BC the tin mines in Cornwall were under controll of Wessex culture (Bell Beaker), a broadskulled invading elite group that married local women, and their skulls gradually became narrower
+/- 1000 BC the broadskulled Goidels invaded the British Isles and took over power
so I suspect L21 arrived on the British Isles not earlier than +/- 1000 BC
 
bicicleur said:
2200 BC the tin mines in Cornwall were under controll of Wessex culture (Bell Beaker), a broadskulled invading elite group that married local women, and their skulls gradually became narrower
+/- 1000 BC the broadskulled Goidels invaded the British Isles and took over power
so I suspect L21 arrived on the British Isles not earlier than +/- 1000 BC
Click to expand...

We can't know for sure until more ancient DNA from the isles is aviable.
 
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Expredel said:
If lactose persistence arose in R1b we would find it in Spain, and the R1b V88 distribution in Africa doesn't match the lactose persistence distribution in Africa.

The best explanation is lactose persistence spreading with Germanic migrations and their milk drinking culture around 500 BC. Milk consumption is highest in Sweden. This seems really rather obvious.
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There was a recent study about lactase persistence in Africa which is very informative:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3980415/

Lactase persistence in Africa derives from five separate mutations, only one of which is the European variant, or 13910T. The authors maintain that three of the others spread from the general area of the Levant/Arabia and one arose in East Africa. They have high frequency in pastoralist societies. So, there is nothing uniquely "European" about mutations for Lactase Persisence or selection for them in such societies.

In western Africa, the Hausa, a Chadic speaking equestrian based society of pastoralists, who consume a lot of milk products, including fresh milk, have levels of 20-40% R1b, but all of it is V88, for which a steppe origin and Indo-European connection has never, to my knowledge, been posited. It may be true that they were pastoralists even in the Levant or Anatolia, but would they necessarily be the only haplogroup in Anatolia that kept cattle? Anyway, the frequency of 13910T in them is either 13.90 or 22.92 percent. They also show a frequency of 11.55% of the 14010 derived allele for Lactase Persistence.

The Fulani, also pastoralists who incorporate milk products into their diet, but in their case Niger Congo speaking, have a frequency of 14.3% for R1b V-88, but a frequency of the European 13910T variant of from 11 to 39% depending on the area and the study. They also have from 12 to 14% frequency of the 14010 Lactase Persistence variant.

On the other hand, the Oudelme of Cameroon are 95% V88 but in the one test done for the presence of lactase persistence alleles, their score was 0. Now, that seems a little odd to me, so perhaps they have some, but anyone who wants to draw any conclusive correlation between the presence specifically of R1b V88 and the "European" variant of a Lactase Persistence mutation is going to have to do more research.

Oh, and the drawing of a correlation is made more difficult by the data on North Africans. The "European" Lactase Persistence variant has frequencies in Mozabite Berbers of 22,7% and in general Algerians of 33.3%, depending on the study. Their level of R1b is, from a quick search, only about 3%, all of it V-88. There's no data for other areas.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
This isn't Haak 2015.
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what is this then, his brother ..the other haak

from Haak 2005 paper
[h=3]Ancient DNA from the First European Farmers in 7500-Year-Old Neolithic Sites[/h]
to

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/10/304#B3

to

Brotherton 2013 paper on H mtdna

to

laz paper

to

Haak 2015 paper

to this I posted above , are all connected, they slowly have been working on them and will continue to work on them.
 
2 years ago, this paper ( below )
Ancient Europeans Mysteriously Vanished 4,500 Years Ago
by Tia Ghose, Staff Writer | April 23, 2013 11:09am ET
skeleton excavated from a grave in Sweden
DNA taken from ancient European skeletons reveals that the genetic makeup of Europe mysteriously transformed about 4,500 years ago, new research suggests. Here, a skeleton, not used in the study, but from the same time period, that was excavated from a grave in Sweden.
The genetic lineage of Europe mysteriously transformed about 4,500 years ago, new research suggests.
The findings, detailed today (April 23) in the journal Nature Communications, were drawn from several skeletons unearthed in central Europe that were up to 7,500 years old.
"What is intriguing is that the genetic markers of this first pan-European culture, which was clearly very successful, were then suddenly replaced around 4,500 years ago, and we don't know why," said study co-author Alan Cooper, of the University of Adelaide Australian Center for Ancient DNA, in a statement. "Something major happened, and the hunt is now on to find out what that was."
The new study also confirms that people sweeping out from Turkey colonized Europe, likely as a part of the agricultural revolution, reaching Germany about 7,500 years ago.
For decades, researchers have wondered whether people, or just ideas, spread from the Middle East during the agricultural revolution that occurred after the Mesolithic period.
To find out, Cooper and his colleagues analyzed mitochondrial DNA, which resides in the cells' energy-making structures and is passed on through the maternal line, from 37 skeletal remains from Germany and two from Italy; the skeletons belonged to humans who lived in several different cultures that flourished between 7,500 and 2,500 years ago. The team looked a DNA specifically from a certain genetic group, called haplogroup h, which is found widely throughout Europe but is less common in East and Central Asia.
The researchers found that the earliest farmers in Germany were closely related to Near Eastern and Anatolian people, suggesting that the agricultural revolution did indeed bring migrations of people into Europe who replaced early hunter-gatherers.
But that initial influx isn't a major part of Europe's genetic heritage today.
Instead, about 5,000 to 4,000 years ago, the genetic profile changes radically, suggesting that some mysterious event led to a huge turnover in the population that made up Europe.

which continued until the Haak paper of 2015.
With both papers and everything in between indicating that people and markers from pre 4500BC do not match markers from post 4500BC to today , why do we pursue this nonsense of motala, oetzi etc.
Clearly the Neolithic markers found in central germany by Haak and all others markers are the original europeans and do not match anything from Gamba and the hungarian or yamnya finds.

All I see is that any markers belonging to the group K-526 ( which is ydna Q, R, M , S ) are the first "barbarian invaders" of Europe.

Do we have a list of markers from older than 4500BC somewhere?
 
Sile
Instead, about 5,000 to 4,000 years ago, the genetic profile changes radically, suggesting that some mysterious event led to a huge turnover in the population that made up Europe.
Click to expand...

Well something important also happened in Armenia at this period. The population turnover was not as huge as elsewhere because mountains helped the ancient population to survive. But we see a clear change in archaeology (except some mountains regions ). This period was the decline of Kur-Arax culture.
 
Sile said:
The complere indo-european language tree in this article ...................used by Haak and Co.
http://www.theleadsouthaustralia.com.au/industries/research-development/ancient-skeletons-hold-the-key-to-origins-of-the-spread-of-indoeuropean-language/


since Anatolian is the first and Albanian is the second, then clearly Albanian originated somewhere in or near anatolia ............my opinion
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Strange language tree. That is if it is supposed to show which language branched off after which.

Italic and Celtic branching off separately. Armenian branching AFTER Italic/Celtic, BEFORE Germanic.
Tocharian branching of from Tocharo-Balto-Slavic after Germanic.

And Balto-Slavic just sitting there till the end. Also what I find strange, maybe just because of me not being pro is that Indo-Iranian is so many language groups away from Balto-Slavic. Although maybe it is just because I always compared Sanscrit to Lithuanian, and in all articles those are compared. But Sanscrit is no more a language. If we compared modern Indo-Iranian languages they might have been miles away. Further than say Germanic.

Ok, maybe off topic here, since this is linguistics thing :)
 
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