expansion of E-V13 : a mystery

The designation of the find as "E1b1b1a1b" is a direct quote from the paper.

Going by this chart in Wiki, E1b1b1a1b* is E-V13. Does that clarify matters? It would definitely be good if they could reanalyze the sample and give a snp designation so we know the specific subclade, but unless this chart is wrong, isn't it definitely E-V13? Does anyone know if Ray Banks has a chart like this and if it differs?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68

This might still be a sub-clade of E-V13 that went extinct, of course, but we have so few ancient Neolithic samples, when you think of it, that there's no way of knowing yet, and certainly not if we don't get very refined subclade identification.
 
In the italian region, E-V13 appears more frequent in mountainous areas (Liguria, Abruzzo, Friuli Venezia Giulia). I think that this has to do with the indoeuropean expansion, and the progressive retreat of "post-neolithic" populations in "safer" areas (the indoeuropean takeover of Europe must have beeen very traumatic, IMHO). It's quite high in Apulia, too, but Apulia was invaded by Illyrians from the western Balkans if I'm not wrong, and E-V13 appears high in some balkanic areas (where its carriers found a refugee, in analogy with what probably happened in Italy?).

There may be something to that, but I don't think we yet know how much of the original E-V13 Neolithic clade survived. The numbers that reached central and western Europe might have been small. We need refined subclade testing of any ancient E-V13 we find, and refined subclade testing of modern samples before we come to any conclusions, in my opinion. Unfortunately, there isn't enough money to go around, and most of the money is going to R1b research, and it's largely R1b people who are getting tested.

I think what may also or perhaps even more likely be the case is that a lot of the E-V13 is a Metal Ages spread from the Balcans and generally from the southeast. The expansion, anyway, seems to date from that time, and that's where E-V13 is most concentrated.

This is one map of E-V13 in Europe:
Haplogroup-E-V13.gif


That doesn't look like it tracks the mountains particularly. There's no particularly high presence down the stretch of the Apennines, for example, as there is for some G2a.

Here's the Wiki map of E-V68 the parent, for what it's worth:
HgE1b1b1a2.png


It looks to me like a Neolithic entry that might have gotten very lucky in the Metal Ages and had an expansion. It might track a bit with this autosomal spread shown in Cavalli-Sforza, which in turn looks a bit like Greek colonization east, west, and north:

Particularly on the Wiki map of E-V68 it just looks like it hopped across the Adriatic.

Edit to add Cavalli Sforza autsomal map 4:
pc4.jpg
 
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The designation of the find as "E1b1b1a1b" is a direct quote from the paper.

Going by this chart in Wiki, E1b1b1a1b* is E-V13. Does that clarify matters? It would definitely be good if they could reanalyze the sample and give a snp designation so we know the specific subclade, but unless this chart is wrong, isn't it definitely E-V13? Does anyone know if Ray Banks has a chart like this and if it differs?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68

This might still be a sub-clade of E-V13 that went extinct, of course, but we have so few ancient Neolithic samples, when you think of it, that there's no way of knowing yet, and certainly not if we don't get very refined subclade identification.

the paper is dated 2011
checking isogg 2011 http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpE11.html it appears E-V13 was E1b1b1a1b, but E-V13 was derived directly from E-M78 then as Z1919 and L618 were not known yet
I wonder if the individual couldn't have been Z1919 or L618 instead
we really should know which SNPs were confirmed
 
In the italian region, E-V13 appears more frequent in mountainous areas (Liguria, Abruzzo, Friuli Venezia Giulia). I think that this has to do with the indoeuropean expansion, and the progressive retreat of "post-neolithic" populations in "safer" areas (the indoeuropean takeover of Europe must have beeen very traumatic, IMHO). It's quite high in Apulia, too, but Apulia was invaded by Illyrians from the western Balkans if I'm not wrong, and E-V13 appears high in some balkanic areas (where its carriers found a refugee, in analogy with what probably happened in Italy?).

you mean the Messapians?
 
It looks to me like a Neolithic entry that might have gotten very lucky in the Metal Ages and had an expansion. It might track a bit with this autosomal spread shown in Cavalli-Sforza, which in turn looks a bit like Greek colonization east, west, and north.

That is what it looks like to me too, especially as the estimated TMRCA is only some 4000 years.
It definately seems to have been part of the Greek colonization east, west, and north. But that does not explain the whole wide distribution across Europe like it is know.
It seems E-V13 participated in multiple expansions, but on the other hand, how many times can one get lucky? Unless you have some very good carts?
 
There may be something to that, but I don't think we yet know how much of the original E-V13 Neolithic clade survived. The numbers that reached central and western Europe might have been small. We need refined subclade testing of any ancient E-V13 we find, and refined subclade testing of modern samples before we come to any conclusions, in my opinion. Unfortunately, there isn't enough money to go around, and most of the money is going to R1b research, and it's largely R1b people who are getting tested.

I think what may also or perhaps even more likely be the case is that a lot of the E-V13 is a Metal Ages spread from the Balcans and generally from the southeast. The expansion, anyway, seems to date from that time, and that's where E-V13 is most concentrated.

This is one map of E-V13 in Europe:
Haplogroup-E-V13.gif


That doesn't look like it tracks the mountains particularly. There's no particularly high presence down the stretch of the Apennines, for example, as there is for some G2a.

Here's the Wiki map of E-V68 the parent, for what it's worth:
HgE1b1b1a2.png


It looks to me like a Neolithic entry that might have gotten very lucky in the Metal Ages and had an expansion. It might track a bit with this autosomal spread shown in Cavalli-Sforza, which in turn looks a bit like Greek colonization east, west, and north:

Particularly on the Wiki map of E-V68 it just looks like it hopped across the Adriatic.

Edit to add Cavalli Sforza autsomal map 4:
pc4.jpg

Your map PC4 is why natgeno2 and 23andme refer to people from this area as "GREEK" in their AuDNa
 
In the italian region, E-V13 appears more frequent in mountainous areas (Liguria, Abruzzo, Friuli Venezia Giulia). I think that this has to do with the indoeuropean expansion, and the progressive retreat of "post-neolithic" populations in "safer" areas (the indoeuropean takeover of Europe must have beeen very traumatic, IMHO). It's quite high in Apulia, too, but Apulia was invaded by Illyrians from the western Balkans if I'm not wrong, and E-V13 appears high in some balkanic areas (where its carriers found a refugee, in analogy with what probably happened in Italy?).

Is E-v13 also known as E-M35? ........because than is what is in Friuli-Venezia-giulia
 
Sorry, forgot to post the fourth Cavalli Sforza autosomal map. I've corrected the original post.
pc4.jpg


I'd like to know what specific subclade of E-V13 is present in Liguria, which doesn't much match this autosomal spread. Here is the E-V13 map again:
Haplogroup-E-V13.gif



I wonder if it's possible that the Ligurian branch is mostly the Neolithic Cardial related one? After all, that's the route that Cardial took into more western areas of Europe...i.e. along the northern littoral of the Mediterranean from Italy and then down into Spain among other areas. The frequency in Sicily is in the interior plain, so perhaps as Mars suggested the Neolithic strains retreated before subsequent migrations?

1195px-European-middle-neolithic-en.svg.png


Certainly, Liguria isn't significant in that Cavalli Sforza spread out from the Balkans, although perhaps it's possible it's a spread along the coast from Massalia? So, maybe the yDna track is there, but not much of an autosomal one?
 
In the italian region, E-V13 appears more frequent in mountainous areas (Liguria, Abruzzo, Friuli Venezia Giulia). I think that this has to do with the indoeuropean expansion, and the progressive retreat of "post-neolithic" populations in "safer" areas (the indoeuropean takeover of Europe must have beeen very traumatic, IMHO). It's quite high in Apulia, too, but Apulia was invaded by Illyrians from the western Balkans if I'm not wrong, and E-V13 appears high in some balkanic areas (where its carriers found a refugee, in analogy with what probably happened in Italy?).

Mars how do we know that E-V13 is more frequent in mountainous areas? Do we really know the methodology used? What I mean is even if this is so, Isn't most of Italy under this type of terrain? Example in Sicily the biggest hot spot of E-V13 is Piazza Aremeria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piazza_Armerina If not mistaken that could not be really considered Mountain terrain. Would you have an idea were the samples would be taken from?
 
This is what Dienekes has to say about the ancient E-V13 found in the Burial cave of North East Spain. I am not sure if further more refined tests would be able to change this view.

The Ave07 haplotype was also compared with current Eb1b1a2 haplotypes previously published (10–14). It appeared identical at the seven markers tested to five Albanian, two Bosnian, one Greek, one Italian, one Sicilian, two Corsican, and two Provence French samples and are thus placed on the same node of the E1b1b1a1b-V13 network as eastern, central, and western Mediterranean haplotypes (Fig. S1).

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/11/y-haplogroups-e-v13-and-g2a-in.html

Having said that 7 Marker match is not a great deal to go with, so all is possible
 
Mars how do we know that E-V13 is more frequent in mountainous areas? Do we really know the methodology used? What I mean is even if this is so, Isn't most of Italy under this type of terrain? Example in Sicily the biggest hot spot of E-V13 is Piazza Aremeria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piazza_Armerina If not mistaken that could not be really considered Mountain terrain. Would you have an idea were the samples would be taken from?
It was simple speculation, since I know those regions - Liguria, Abruzzo and Friuli - have rough and not easy to access mountainous areas, and Maciamo stated that native neolithic populations often took shelter in areas like those, after the arrival of the indoeuropeans.
 
You have to be very careful in assuming high e1b1b levels in Sicily are all or mostly E-V13. Generally they're not. In Sicily & most parts of western Italy (Liguria & north excepted) E-V13 is less than 50% of all e1b1b samples. Unless you have a study breaking down the e1b1b by subclade, don't assume it is E-V13. E-V13 is more common in the east of Italy. lt hugs the coast & areas east of the Appenines. The way it tracks mountains & more isolated areas in much of Europe (Eastern Europe, Western Spain) is not the pattern seen in Italy. Probably because Italy is simply not exposed to invasion in the same way the east of Europe is. The real division in Italy is the Appenine range itself. E-V13 is generally lower in the mountains of Italy (in both the north & south). It is roughly 7-9% of mountain samples. This holds for mountainous regions in both the north the south of Italy. Coincidentally (or not so coincidentally) this 7-9% number is not much different from the frequency with which E-V13 is found in the Alps (Austria, Switzerland, etc). But as stated, in coastal areas, E-V13 is very high in the north. It's actually not any lower than it is in the southeast (15% or so). Rimini, Genoa, Venice, all coastal northern Italian cities where E-V13 is 15%+. In the few spots in Sicily where e1b1b is 30-40%, E-V13 may be 15% or so, but keep in mind that in Sicily on the whole, e1b1b is roughly 20% of all samples, & of that e1b1b only about 7-8% is E-V13. The opposite is true in the north & the east. E1b1b might be 16% or 17% or 14% or 12% in the north or the east of Italy, depending on the region, but circa 70 or 80% of that e1b1b is E-V13 (that's double the rate in Sicily). So if e1b1b is 14% in one of those regions, 11-12% is E-V13, which is a relatively high E-V13 rate. In fact E-V13 rates are significantly higher in the east & north of Italy, than in Sicily, the south-west & central west of Italy, despite Sicily & the southwest having very high rates of e1b1b.
 
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You have to be very careful in assuming high e1b1b levels in Sicily are all or mostly E-V13. Generally they're not. In Sicily & most parts of western Italy (Liguria & north excepted) E-V13 is less than 50% of all e1b1b samples. Unless you have a study breaking down the e1b1b by subclade, don't assume it is E-V13. E-V13 is more common in the east of Italy. lt hugs the coast & areas east of the Appenines. The way it tracks mountains & more isolated areas in much of Europe (Eastern Europe, Western Spain) is not the pattern seen in Italy. Probably because Italy is simply not exposed to invasion in the same way the east of Europe is. The real division in Italy is the Appenine range itself. E-V13 is generally lower in the mountains of Italy (in both the north & south). It is roughly 7-9% of mountain samples. In the North this is not all that different from the E-V13 rate just north of Italy in the Alps (Austria, Switzerland). But as stated, in coastal areas, E-V13 is very high in the north. It's actually not any lower than it is in the southeast (15% or so). Rimini, Genoa, Venice, all coastal northern Italian cities, E-V13 is 15%+. In the few spots in Sicily where e1b1b is 30-40%, E-V13 may be 15% or so, but keep in mind that in Sicily on the whole, e1b1b is roughly 20% of all samples, & of that e1b1b only about 7-8% is E-V13. The opposite is true in the north & the east. E1b1b might be 18% or 17% or 14% or 12% in the north or the east of Italy, in certain areas, cities, or regions, but circa 80% of that e1b1b is E-V13 (that's double the rate in Sicily). So if e1b1bis 14% in one of those regions, 11-12% is E-V13, which is a relatively high E-V13 rate. In fact it's significantly higher than Sicily taken as a whole.
I do not know where you get your numbers from .............but in north-italy the bulk ( 85% ) of E-M35 are the equivalent of E-L117 ...............E-V13 is further down and only a very few in studies are noted as this marker ...........there are many branches that came out of E-M35 , not just E-V13
 
You have to be very careful in assuming high e1b1b levels in Sicily are all or mostly E-V13. Generally they're not. In Sicily & most parts of western Italy (Liguria & north excepted) E-V13 is less than 50% of all e1b1b samples. Unless you have a study breaking down the e1b1b by subclade, don't assume it is E-V13. E-V13 is more common in the east of Italy. lt hugs the coast & areas east of the Appenines. The way it tracks mountains & more isolated areas in much of Europe (Eastern Europe, Western Spain) is not the pattern seen in Italy. Probably because Italy is simply not exposed to invasion in the same way the east of Europe is. The real division in Italy is the Appenine range itself. E-V13 is generally lower in the mountains of Italy (in both the north & south). It is roughly 7-9% of mountain samples. In the North this is not all that different from the E-V13 rate just north of Italy in the Alps (Austria, Switzerland). But as stated, in coastal areas, E-V13 is very high in the north. It's actually not any lower than it is in the southeast (15% or so). Rimini, Genoa, Venice, all coastal northern Italian cities, E-V13 is 15%+. In the few spots in Sicily where e1b1b is 30-40%, E-V13 may be 15% or so, but keep in mind that in Sicily on the whole, e1b1b is roughly 20% of all samples, & of that e1b1b only about 7-8% is E-V13. The opposite is true in the north & the east. E1b1b might be 18% or 17% or 14% or 12% in the north or the east of Italy, in certain areas, cities, or regions, but circa 80% of that e1b1b is E-V13 (that's double the rate in Sicily). So if e1b1bis 14% in one of those regions, 11-12% is E-V13, which is a relatively high E-V13 rate. In fact it's significantly higher than Sicily taken as a whole.
For every claim you make please post a link to the precise paper where the data can be found.The page number would be helpful as well. If the material is in a chart please provide a link or reproduce it.
 
I do not know where you get your numbers from .............but in north-italy the bulk ( 85% ) of E-M35 are the equivalent of E-L117 ...............E-V13 is further down and only a very few in studies are noted as this marker ...........there are many branches that came out of E-M35 , not just E-V13
Sure. Boattini et al: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065441. Go into Table S1 & S2. Breaking down the numbers is easy, but the patterns are quite clear. E-V13 is heavy in the coastal east & the coastal north.
 
I can't explain Cavalli Sforza's autosomal line exactly, but I'll say this: often the creation of maps like this are based upon arbitrarily chosen lines of equal "something". The boundaries are therefore artificial. Because an area is slightly over a line or slightly under a line may not really tell you that much. In truth, the gradients are gradual. The lines make the gradual gradients seem like boundaries or jumps, even though they're not really. Although a town 100 miles east might be within some different zone, the actual genetic differences between the areas might be infinitessimal. The map is by and large meant to show a particular pattern. In doing so however, it sacrifices precision for conceptual understanding. I share your thoughts on the possible neolithic Cardial connection to Liguria. However, until someone actually looks at the V-13 from the area, it is pure speculation as to how far in time it goes back. Nevertheless, here is my crude map on possible Cardial movements. I think the maritime route around Sicily seems significantly less likely, although we're talking about large time spans so who really knows? Still, I think V-13's distribution tracks a land movement along the eastern Appenines & into the Po Valley.
 

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I think you're confused regarding the table. Northwest Italy is area 1. In this area 9.3% of all haplos are E-V13. The other E's altogether total 2.4%. That makes E-V13 just under 80% of all E in area 1. In Northeast Italy (area 2) E-V13 is 11% of all haplos (an even higher rate). There is a larger percentage of non E-V13 here however. 5.5% of haplos are non E-V13 E. That means exactly 2/3 (66.66%) of all E in NE Italy is E-V13. This is slightly lower than the Northwest but it's significantly higher than south-west & central-west Italy where E-V13 comprises only 30-50% of all E. Along the east coast of Italy as a whole, E-V13 is on average about 3/4 of all E (much like in the north as a whole). That's roughly double the % of E found in the west. The east also has about 1.5x as much E-V13 in absolute numbers (Liguria excepted).
 
Thanks The TMRCA for E-V13 is only between 4900-3800ybp ...........according to YFULL.com its formation is 12500ybp How important is TMRCA in regards to E-V13?
Yeah, we can say pretty definitively at this point that this is wrong. We have E-V13 confirmed in Cardium era Spain & we have E-M78 from both Sopot & Lengyel from same time period. Unfortunately the author did not dig deeper into sub-clade to confirm E-V13, but given the age & the region I'd bet 20-1 some if not all of the E samples are E-V13. So we have E-V13 in Cardium Pottery Spain & half way across the continent in Pannonian region from roughly 7000 yrs ago. Yet V13 expanded 4000 yrs ago? Don't think so. There may have been multiple expansions as I believe Mars & Angela suggested (at least one in the Bronze age (Greek) & one 8000 yrs ago or so & there may even be others). However, I think we can say pretty definitively E-V13 started expanding long before 4000 years ago. Also, given its distribution in virtually every corner of Europe, I think its origins in Europe & its presence generally go way back. http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2015/4075/pdf/doc.pdf http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779 http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/11/y-haplogroups-e-v13-and-g2a-in.html
 

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