DNA of Iberians from Europe

Was there some big discovery of ancient Dna from Republican Rome and then from the time of Julius Caesar and then again from the later Empire and they were all compared and somehow I missed it? Or is this anthrofora genetics and history, perhaps?

These are guesses, and not very well informed guesses either. Had you actually done any academic research into the subject you would know that the number of Sub Saharan Africans imported into Europe by the Romans was very small; the empire only reached the Sahara. (It's true we have the remains from the Roman era of a rather wealthy SSA woman in northern Britain, but these are exceptions rather than the rule, I think.)There was trade with SSAfrica, yes, and East Africa, and so some were bought and sold, but nothing like the numbers who came into Iberia, for example, especially Portugal after the New World was conquered. Watching "The Gladiator" doesn't count as a history lesson, you know.

Second of all, slaves came from all the Roman conquests, which means there were just as many, if not more, British and Gallic and German and Dacian and Thracian slaves as there were Greeks, and Syrians, and then Jews. You might find it interesting to read about how the sale of slaves from Gaul made Caesar such a wealthy man that he was able to buy the support of the Roman mobs.

Third of all, many slaves were freedmen who had sold themselves into slavery.

Fourth of all, slaves were used, used up, usually, all over the empire, on the galleys, in the mines, and on the latifundia, and not just in Italy, and increasingly so as the Empire went on. Given the results from Ralph and Coop discussed below, most of them didn't survive to procreate. Not even the many women put to work in brothels were allowed to keep their children, as the many grave sites full of newborns and aborted fetuses can attest. It wasn't like the American south where because the importation of slaves from Africa was outlawed relatively early on they had to breed them; for a long time during the Empire there was always a new rebellion on the horizon, so they could afford to "waste" them. It's certainly a terrible thing, but those were terrible times, very brutal indeed.

Now, it's true that the slave system during the Roman Empire was different from that of the American south in that the exceptionally able slaves sometimes managed to get their manumission and rise in society, occasionally to great heights, because "racism" as we understand it today didn't really exist. You have to imagine an American south where enslaved Africans were present, but also freed Africans who owned their own shops, and a few who could become very wealthy, and even wind up in the national legislature. It's difficult to imagine, yes, but that's how it was in the Greek and Roman worlds.

So, you would think there would have been some gene flow into the "native" population from these freedmen, whom one would have to assume included Gauls and Germans and Dacians as well as Greeks and Syrians and Jews, unless you think the northerners were dumber and less able on average than the Easterners. Of course, that might have been true to a certain extent. An educated Greek scribe or Syrian entertainer or Jewish metal merchant might have been a lot more valuable than some farmer from the north who might just be sent to a latifundia or mine, but I don't think we know enough to speculate about that.

As to how many manumitted slaves there might have been in any particular country, of what particular ancestry, and how much gene flow there might have been into the "native" population, I don't know. I used to think there must have been a significant amount of it. However, if Ralph and Coop were correct in their IBD study (and don't modify their results in their new upcoming paper), there has been no significant inflow of new genetic material into Italy since about 300 BC, which is late enough for the Celts (Gauls) into northern Italy, and the Greeks diffusing up from Magna Graecia, but not late enough to incorporate hordes of slaves from anywhere, either from Europe or the Near East.

"There is relatively little common ancestry shared between the Italian peninsula and other locations, and what there is seems to derive mostly from longer ago than 2,500 ya. An exception is that Italy and the neighboring Balkan populations share small but significant numbers of common ancestors in the last 1,500 years."

Also, "we have seen significant modern substructure within Italy (i.e., Figure 2) that predates most of this common ancestry, and estimate that most of the common ancestry shared between Italy and other populations is older than about 2,300 years."

I have wondered if perhaps it doesn't register as "new" gene flow because it's just the same old "Near Eastern" farmer ancestry that came into Europe with the Neolithic, but they seem to indicate not. Also, there's the "Italian cline" to consider, where, as Ralph and Coop put it, the Italian cline shows a " distinctly bimodal distribution of numbers of IBD blocks that each Italian shares with both French-speaking Swiss and the United Kingdom, and that these numbers are strongly correlated. Furthermore, the amount that Italians share with these two populations varies continuously from values typical for Turkey and Cyprus, to values typical for France and Switzerland."

If slaves came from Britain and Gaul and Germany and Dacia as well as Greece and the Near East, did they decide to send all the slaves from the Near East to the south and all the Germans and Gauls to the north for some reason? That doesn't seem to make any sense either, so maybe they're correct.

See: Ralph and Coop for the source of the quotes.
http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

As for physical appearance, the Romans were by no means all short and dark. Regardless, what would that have to do with whether the Italics were related to the Celts? You are aware that the two languages are very related yes? And that they came from the steppe, presumably, with the Indo-Europeans? And that the Yamnaya Indo-Europeans were "darker" than modern Europeans, even darker than many modern Italians or Iberians? You're also aware that not all the "Celtic" tribes were fair? Have you ever heard of the Silures? Perhaps you haven't read all the recent papers about the relatively recent selection for "fairness" in Europe and it's relationship to the environment?

I would suggest you use our search engine. It's quite good...there are numerous papers and discussions which might help you catch up.

you need to take it step by step.

Romans where once only Latin
after they conquered south-italians, the Romans where in majority south-Italians
after they conquered etruscans and umbrians they gained some central italians, but the majority where still south-Italians.
At the time of the hannibal wars there was only south and central italians as Romans.
At the time of the MAcedonians wars there was only south and central italians, plus Iberians
At the time of the Gallic wars , there was only south and central italians, Greeks plus Iberians plus numibians ( from north africa )
At the time of the British invasion , there was only south and central italians, Greeks plus Iberians.

etc

The composition of Romans was different in every century
The Time of the Republic was Different to the time of the Empire in regards to Roman legions
 
Phoenician (and Carthaginians who were Phoenicias themselves) colonization was somewhat different from the Greek colonization and Roman one different as well. Greeks founded ex novo and populated their cities with their people (like early English in western american coast for example), Punic colonization was more like a commercial influences in the other native populations and their cities were more like multicultural emporiums, while Roman colonization is more like a large group of Italic families who settled in the pre existent cities and pre populated with local people.
I.e group of Romans who settled in an existent and populated city of Celts in England.

That's what I was trying to say, but I focused on the Italian soldiers instead of the immigrants. The Romans brought a significant amount of DNA ONLY into the southern ad eastern areas of the Iberian peninsula, i.e., Andalusia, Valencia, and catalonia
 
Was there some big discovery of ancient Dna from Republican Rome and then from the time of Julius Caesar and then again from the later Empire and they were all compared and somehow I missed it? Or is this anthrofora genetics and history, perhaps?

These are guesses, and not very well informed guesses either. Had you actually done any academic research into the subject you would know that the number of Sub Saharan Africans imported into Europe by the Romans was very small; the empire only reached the Sahara. (It's true we have the remains from the Roman era of a rather wealthy SSA woman in northern Britain, but these are exceptions rather than the rule, I think.)There was trade with SSAfrica, yes, and East Africa, and so some were bought and sold, but nothing like the numbers who came into Iberia, for example, especially Portugal after the New World was conquered. Watching "The Gladiator" doesn't count as a history lesson, you know.

Second of all, slaves came from all the Roman conquests, which means there were just as many, if not more, British and Gallic and German and Dacian and Thracian slaves as there were Greeks, and Syrians, and then Jews. You might find it interesting to read about how the sale of slaves from Gaul made Caesar such a wealthy man that he was able to buy the support of the Roman mobs.

Third of all, many slaves were freedmen who had sold themselves into slavery.

Fourth of all, slaves were used, used up, usually, all over the empire, on the galleys, in the mines, and on the latifundia, and not just in Italy, and increasingly so as the Empire went on. Given the results from Ralph and Coop discussed below, most of them didn't survive to procreate. Not even the many women put to work in brothels were allowed to keep their children, as the many grave sites full of newborns and aborted fetuses can attest. It wasn't like the American south where because the importation of slaves from Africa was outlawed relatively early on they had to breed them; for a long time during the Empire there was always a new rebellion on the horizon, so they could afford to "waste" them. It's certainly a terrible thing, but those were terrible times, very brutal indeed.

Now, it's true that the slave system during the Roman Empire was different from that of the American south in that the exceptionally able slaves sometimes managed to get their manumission and rise in society, occasionally to great heights, because "racism" as we understand it today didn't really exist. You have to imagine an American south where enslaved Africans were present, but also freed Africans who owned their own shops, and a few who could become very wealthy, and even wind up in the national legislature. It's difficult to imagine, yes, but that's how it was in the Greek and Roman worlds.

So, you would think there would have been some gene flow into the "native" population from these freedmen, whom one would have to assume included Gauls and Germans and Dacians as well as Greeks and Syrians and Jews, unless you think the northerners were dumber and less able on average than the Easterners. Of course, that might have been true to a certain extent. An educated Greek scribe or Syrian entertainer or Jewish metal merchant might have been a lot more valuable than some farmer from the north who might just be sent to a latifundia or mine, but I don't think we know enough to speculate about that.

As to how many manumitted slaves there might have been in any particular country, of what particular ancestry, and how much gene flow there might have been into the "native" population, I don't know. I used to think there must have been a significant amount of it. However, if Ralph and Coop were correct in their IBD study (and don't modify their results in their new upcoming paper), there has been no significant inflow of new genetic material into Italy since about 300 BC, which is late enough for the Celts (Gauls) into northern Italy, and the Greeks diffusing up from Magna Graecia, but not late enough to incorporate hordes of slaves from anywhere, either from Europe or the Near East.

"There is relatively little common ancestry shared between the Italian peninsula and other locations, and what there is seems to derive mostly from longer ago than 2,500 ya. An exception is that Italy and the neighboring Balkan populations share small but significant numbers of common ancestors in the last 1,500 years."

Also, "we have seen significant modern substructure within Italy (i.e., Figure 2) that predates most of this common ancestry, and estimate that most of the common ancestry shared between Italy and other populations is older than about 2,300 years."

I have wondered if perhaps it doesn't register as "new" gene flow because it's just the same old "Near Eastern" farmer ancestry that came into Europe with the Neolithic, but they seem to indicate not. Also, there's the "Italian cline" to consider, where, as Ralph and Coop put it, the Italian cline shows a " distinctly bimodal distribution of numbers of IBD blocks that each Italian shares with both French-speaking Swiss and the United Kingdom, and that these numbers are strongly correlated. Furthermore, the amount that Italians share with these two populations varies continuously from values typical for Turkey and Cyprus, to values typical for France and Switzerland."

If slaves came from Britain and Gaul and Germany and Dacia as well as Greece and the Near East, did they decide to send all the slaves from the Near East to the south and all the Germans and Gauls to the north for some reason? That doesn't seem to make any sense either, so maybe they're correct.

See: Ralph and Coop for the source of the quotes.
http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

As for physical appearance, the Romans were by no means all short and dark. Regardless, what would that have to do with whether the Italics were related to the Celts? You are aware that the two languages are very related yes? And that they came from the steppe, presumably, with the Indo-Europeans? And that the Yamnaya Indo-Europeans were "darker" than modern Europeans, even darker than many modern Italians or Iberians? You're also aware that not all the "Celtic" tribes were fair? Have you ever heard of the Silures? Perhaps you haven't read all the recent papers about the relatively recent selection for "fairness" in Europe and it's relationship to the environment?

I would suggest you use our search engine. It's quite good...there are numerous papers and discussions which might help you catch up.


First of all I am an amateur historian and not a professional geneticist. I teach history and I mainly use historical sources to explain my reasons. And no-- these are not guesses. I never said the Romans imported hordes of Blacks into Rome or the provinces. I meant to say that the majority came from Syria, Judea and North Africa (more specifically Egypt), including Blacks. How many Blacks were imported no one knows. Either way these people mixed with the Romans and created the modern Italians. (Did you know that by the 5th century AD the majority of the population in Rome was non-Roman?) Yes there were many European slaves but an examination of the Italian DNA and the classical sources points to more Middle Eastern-North African than European. Even if there were 50% European and 50% non-European the Italians were mixed to a considerable extent. These figures clearly show that Italians are among the most mixed of all the peoples of Europe:
Italy4.532.5439915.5313.52.500
rate11.gif
North Italy
713.54.549.57.5101.511200
rate11.gif
Tuscany
41.52.5452.5911.529200
rate07.gif
Central Italy
2.521.53361123511.5300
rate09.gif
South Italy
2.53.51327.510.521.5418.52.500
rate09.gif
Sicily
3.5314.5268.5233.520.5410
rate09.gif

As you can see some Italians are not even European as their DNA is more than 50% Middle Eastern/North African.

You dont have to tell me that Ancient Romans were related to the Celts. I know that. 4,000 years ago they were related but by the time of Julius Caesar the Romans were different. Language does not determine race. No one knows what the ancient Romans looked like but we do know that the Etruscans conquered the Romans and the Romans borrowed heavily fro Etruscans -- the legions, government, religion, and even manners. They also mixed with them. After the Romans conquered the Greeks they mixed with them as well. The Greeks were not fully European or "Aryan." We know from historical sources that the Ionians were descended form ancient peoples (Pelasgian?) who originally did not speak Greek. They adopted Greek probably in order to do business with the invading Mykenaians. Even Thucydides tell us on the causes of the Peloponnesian War that one of the reasons for the Spartans in deciding to go to war was that they suspected the Athenians were not Greek. Races change very rapidly over time when mixed with others that look different. Therefore the Romans were very mixed by the time of Caesar.

Yes not all Romans were short, dark and swarthy. There were some tall, blondes, and red heads but they were a very small minority Only north of the Po valley were Italians fair and Celtic-looking, But these were not considered Roman). After the Celts were conquered they added more light hair to the "Romans." The same can be said of the Germans later on. However, the Romans, in general, were short, dark haired and eyed, and of fair to swarthy complexion. We see the evidence in their paintings, sculptures, and murals. I am also aware that not all Celts were blond or red haired with tall-muscular bodies. Some were dark. Yes I know who the Silures were. Again language does not determine race. Many peoples that were conquered by the Celts adopted the Celtic language. BUT , in general, the classical sources described the Celts as looking very similar to Germans. Even Julius Caesar got the Celts confused wit the Germans and vise versa.

170px-Dying_GaulDSCF6738.jpg
220px-Dying_Gaul_Musei_Capitolini_MC747.jpg
310px-0_Galata_Morente_-_Musei_Capitolini_%281%29.jpg


You can try and give me all this fancy DNA evidence to support your claims but history is also important.
 
"There wasn't any huge migration of Romans into Iberia either. It was just a military conquest, just like that of the earlier Carthaginians and the later Visigoths, Vandals, Swabians and Arabs/Moors, none of whom brought more than a few thousand of their own people into an area that was already populated by millions of native inhabitants"

How can you possibly admit that there were "a few thousands"??? You make me laugh! I will agree with you on the Carthaginians and "Moors." But on others not. The Roman legions were composed of Italians until the Age of Augustus. After that the Romans became seriously decadent and they began to use foreigners or provincials in their armies. If you take 8,000 Italians per legion and multiply by four and 8 periods of rotation of service it comes to over 250,000 males. If they were all sexually starving and ready to settle, you can imagine the result. The same with the Germanics. On average German nations numbered 200,000. If you take Swabians and Goths only that is about half a million. Clearly not "a few thousands."

Look at the numbers you originally cited, they do not even make up 1% of the population of Roman-era Iberia. And by using the new (and likely inflated) numbers they still only would make up about 4% of the population. No matter how you want to look at it, the Romans in Iberia were only a very small minority. Ditto for the Vandals, Swabians and Goths. You are only dealing with military interventions here, not with actual migrations of entire populations. On top of that, these foreigners would have had very little contact with the bulk of the population of the peninsula, who lived in rural areas.
 
I've read that R1b in Basuqe, Iberians, and SouthWest French belong mostly to R1b-DF27(subclade of P312). I've read about DF27 subclades which are "Basque-specific". So, R1b in Basque may be mostly from pretty recent founder effects.

It don't think it came with Iberians because they only existed in Iberia, while P312 also exists in Celts, Basque, Italics, Germans, and probably: Estruscans and all the other pre-Roman people of Italy. Iberians weren't Indo European. And Aryan is a name only used for some Indo Iranians from South, Central, and West Asia. It's not used for all Indo Europeans. It's meaning has been perverted to mean Indo European or white or European.

I am sorry my friend but you seem to have contradicted yourself. You say on the one hand that Iberians and Basques carried R1b-P312,. Then you say that "It don't think it came with Iberians because they only existed in Iberia". Historians never said Iberians were native to the Iberian peninsula. They came from the Balkans or North Africa (I personally think they were European who migrated from the east). So if the Iberians did introduce R1b along with the others, then they were probably related to pre-Celtic peoples, who spoke a pre-Indo European language.

Aryan is not specific to Central Asian peoples. The word is found in many Indo-European languages. It means "noble." We find the root "Arios" in names among the Celts, Germans, and Greeks. For example, Aristotle = noble and Ariovistus (Suebic king). It is found all over Europe and Asia. No the Nazis did not pervert the term "Aryan." The original Aryans were Europeans (probably related to the Skythians) who moved into India and Iran. And yes -- they were white.
 
These are guesses, and not very well informed guesses either. Had you actually done any academic research into the subject you would know that the number of Sub Saharan Africans imported into Europe by the Romans was very small; the empire only reached the Sahara. (It's true we have the remains from the Roman era of a rather wealthy SSA woman in northern Britain, but these are exceptions rather than the rule, I think.)There was trade with SSAfrica, yes, and East Africa, and so some were bought and sold, but nothing like the numbers who came into Iberia, for example, especially Portugal after the New World was conquered. Watching "The Gladiator" doesn't count as a history lesson, you know.

Sub-Saharan slaves were also brought to "Renaissance" Italy, and their estimated numbers do not appear very different from those imported into Iberia or England during those imperial days.

Second of all, slaves came from all the Roman conquests, which means there were just as many, if not more, British and Gallic and German and Dacian and Thracian slaves as there were Greeks, and Syrians, and then Jews. You might find it interesting to read about how the sale of slaves from Gaul made Caesar such a wealthy man that he was able to buy the support of the Roman mobs.

The majority of scholars on the subject point out that the majority of slaves and free foreign citizens in Rome came from the Eastern parts of the empire (i.e. what today are Greece, southern Balkans, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Egypt)
 
Look at the numbers you originally cited, they do not even make up 1% of the population of Roman-era Iberia. And by using the new (and likely inflated) numbers they still only would make up about 4% of the population. No matter how you want to look at it, the Romans in Iberia were only a very small minority. Ditto for the Vandals, Swabians and Goths. You are only dealing with military interventions here, not with actual migrations of entire populations. On top of that, these foreigners would have had very little contact with the bulk of the population of the peninsula, who lived in rural areas.

No no no Drac: you misunderstood me: I mean only in Andalusia and probably Valencia and Catalonia regions. This is roughly 1/4 to 1/3 of the peninsula. I never meant to state the whole of Iberia. Iberia is as big as Ukraine! The Celts in Iberia remained pure or relatively pure. Only the Iberians!

The vast majority of the Germanics lived in small towns and villages in the North of Iberia. Germans disliked living in cities. Only the high nobles and their entourage lived in the cities. Recognize the term "Campos?" These all refer to Gothic "camps" or towns in Castile but also in Extremadura. After the Moorish invasion many Germanics moved to the mountains and mixed with the Basques, Cantabrians, and Gallicians. What is a Castilian? the union of a Goth soldier and a Basque woman. What is a Galician? A Suabian and a Celt. What is an Asturian? A Goth and a Celt. What is an Aragonese? A Frank and a Basque.
 
you need to take it step by step.

Romans where once only Latin
after they conquered south-italians, the Romans where in majority south-Italians
after they conquered etruscans and umbrians they gained some central italians, but the majority where still south-Italians.
At the time of the hannibal wars there was only south and central italians as Romans.
At the time of the MAcedonians wars there was only south and central italians, plus Iberians
At the time of the Gallic wars , there was only south and central italians, Greeks plus Iberians plus numibians ( from north africa )

I think you mean Numidians.

At the time of the British invasion , there was only south and central italians, Greeks plus Iberians.

etc

The composition of Romans was different in every century
The Time of the Republic was Different to the time of the Empire in regards to Roman legions

At the time of the invasion of Britain the Roman armies would have included people from all over the empire, much more so than actual Romans proper. We are talking about a time when even many of the emperors were themselves foreigners, like Septimius Severus, a Libyan who actually died in Britain while planning a military campaign to Scotland. We have a very good idea of this from surviving Roman-era data on the composition of the legions stationed in Britain:

https://books.google.com/books?id=h...rs, Thracians, Dalmatians, Frisians,"&f=false

"The Notitia Imperii shows us that bodies of Syrians, Cilicians, Spaniards, Moors, Thracians, Dalmatians, Frisians, & c., formed the military colonists of the stations in Britain ; and when even the emperors themselves were often not of Italian birth, and the most trusted officers and governors provincials or even barbarians, we have no reason to suppose that any notable proportion of genuine Roman blood found its way to this country."
 
No no no Drac: you misunderstood me: I mean only in Andalusia and probably Valencia and Catalonia regions. This is roughly 1/4 to 1/3 of the peninsula. I never meant to state the whole of Iberia. Iberia is as big as Ukraine! The Celts in Iberia remained pure or relatively pure. Only the Iberians!

The vast majority of the Germanics lived in small towns and villages in the North of Iberia. Germans disliked living in cities. Only the high nobles and their entourage lived in the cities. Recognize the term "Campos?" These all refer to Gothic "camps" or towns in Castile but also in Extremadura. After the Moorish invasion many Germanics moved to the mountains and mixed with the Basques, Cantabrians, and Gallicians. What is a Castilian? the union of a Goth soldier and a Basque woman. What is a Galician? A Suabian and a Celt. What is an Asturian? A Goth and a Celt. What is an Aragonese? A Frank and a Basque.

If you look at the quote I posted earlier from scholars on the subject, you will see that the Roman influence on Andalucia and the Eastern parts of Iberia was mostly cultural, not ethnic. The Romans simply did not come in large enough numbers to have a very significant impact on the ethnic make up. And I agree with you about the other areas of Iberia: the Roman presence was even less in those places. But I also think that the Germanic influence was small. Their numbers were not huge when compared to the numbers of native Iberians and Celtiberians/Celts already living in the peninsula from way before any of these later foreign minorities came.
 
First of all I am an amateur historian and not a professional geneticist. I teach history and I mainly use historical sources to explain my reasons. And no-- these are not guesses. I never said the Romans imported hordes of Blacks into Rome or the provinces. I meant to say that the majority came from Syria, Judea and North Africa (more specifically Egypt), including Blacks. How many Blacks were imported no one knows. Either way these people mixed with the Romans and created the modern Italians. (Did you know that by the 5th century AD the majority of the population in Rome was non-Roman?) Yes there were many European slaves but an examination of the Italian DNA and the classical sources points to more Middle Eastern-North African than European. Even if there were 50% European and 50% non-European the Italians were mixed to a considerable extent. These figures clearly show that Italians are among the most mixed of all the peoples of Europe:
Italy
4.5
3
2.5
4
39
9
15.5
3
13.5
2.5
rate11.gif

North Italy
7
1
3.5
4.5
49.5
7.5
10
1.5
11
2
rate11.gif

Tuscany
4
1.5
2.5
4
52.5
9
11.5
2
9
2
rate07.gif

Central Italy
2.5
2
1.5
3
36
11
23
5
11.5
3
rate09.gif

South Italy
2.5
3.5
1
3
27.5
10.5
21.5
4
18.5
2.5
rate09.gif

Sicily
3.5
3
1
4.5
26
8.5
23
3.5
20.5
4
1
rate09.gif


As you can see some Italians are not even European as their DNA is more than 50% Middle Eastern/North African.

You dont have to tell me that Ancient Romans were related to the Celts. I know that. 4,000 years ago they were related but by the time of Julius Caesar the Romans were different. Language does not determine race. No one knows what the ancient Romans looked like but we do know that the Etruscans conquered the Romans and the Romans borrowed heavily fro Etruscans -- the legions, government, religion, and even manners. They also mixed with them. After the Romans conquered the Greeks they mixed with them as well. The Greeks were not fully European or "Aryan." We know from historical sources that the Ionians were descended form ancient peoples (Pelasgian?) who originally did not speak Greek. They adopted Greek probably in order to do business with the invading Mykenaians. Even Thucydides tell us on the causes of the Peloponnesian War that one of the reasons for the Spartans in deciding to go to war was that they suspected the Athenians were not Greek. Races change very rapidly over time when mixed with others that look different. Therefore the Romans were very mixed by the time of Caesar.

Yes not all Romans were short, dark and swarthy. There were some tall, blondes, and red heads but they were a very small minority Only north of the Po valley were Italians fair and Celtic-looking, But these were not considered Roman). After the Celts were conquered they added more light hair to the "Romans." The same can be said of the Germans later on. However, the Romans, in general, were short, dark haired and eyed, and of fair to swarthy complexion. We see the evidence in their paintings, sculptures, and murals. I am also aware that not all Celts were blond or red haired with tall-muscular bodies. Some were dark. Yes I know who the Silures were. Again language does not determine race. Many peoples that were conquered by the Celts adopted the Celtic language. BUT , in general, the classical sources described the Celts as looking very similar to Germans. Even Julius Caesar got the Celts confused wit the Germans and vise versa.

170px-Dying_GaulDSCF6738.jpg
220px-Dying_Gaul_Musei_Capitolini_MC747.jpg
310px-0_Galata_Morente_-_Musei_Capitolini_%281%29.jpg


You can try and give me all this fancy DNA evidence to support your claims but history is also important.

The table above is useless without headings.
 
I am sorry my friend but you seem to have contradicted yourself. You say on the one hand that Iberians and Basques carried R1b-P312,. Then you say that "It don't think it came with Iberians because they only existed in Iberia". Historians never said Iberians were native to the Iberian peninsula. They came from the Balkans or North Africa (I personally think they were European who migrated from the east). So if the Iberians did introduce R1b along with the others, then they were probably related to pre-Celtic peoples, who spoke a pre-Indo European language.

Aryan is not specific to Central Asian peoples. The word is found in many Indo-European languages. It means "noble." We find the root "Arios" in names among the Celts, Germans, and Greeks. For example, Aristotle = noble and Ariovistus (Suebic king). It is found all over Europe and Asia. No the Nazis did not pervert the term "Aryan." The original Aryans were Europeans (probably related to the Skythians) who moved into India and Iran. And yes -- they were white.

The Iberians were not Indo European. So, they can't be related to Celts by language. You can argue for relation in anything else but language(I guess except for some exchange of words, etc.). Of course it is possible linguistic relatives of Iberians once were widespread in Europe and are the source of R1b-P312. But, the Iberians we know from written records can not be, because they only lived in Spain.

Is Aryan as an ethnic name used in Europe? If not, it shouldn't be a label for any Europeans. People began to use "Aryan" as a label for all Indo Europeans in the 1800s. They got the word from ancient Indo Iranian scripts, and Aryan was then used as a label by many people, because they assumed they were the real Aryans(or Indo Europeans) instead of South and West Asians. Wikipedia Article.

People do miss use the word Aryan nowadays. If you'd ask an average Joe, if anything he'd say Aryan means German or white. This is a perverted meaning of the word.

What evidence do you have the 'Original Aryans" were European or white? You shouldn't just assume this is the truth. Modern Europeans are a mix of Pre-Historic ones who were distinct from each other, and also people from East, West Asia and North Africa. When going back 5,000 years there was no European, like the ones we know today. In East and West Europe 5,000 years ago, they were as differnt as West Asians and Europeans are from each other today.

For all we know Aryan wasn't used as an ethnic name till way after Steppe-descended Indo Iranian speakers mixed with natives in Central, South, and West Asia. By the time they called themselves Aryans they could have been very mixed. But anyways, lets say the proto-proto Indo Iranians from the Steppe called themselves Aryans.

They still were probably not European in the modern sense, just like Yamnaya genomes weren't. They would be more like first cousins. 50-90%(varying by each region) of Europeans blood comes from very differnt people than the Yamnaya. Even, if the original Indo Iranians looked European and genetically closely related to Europeans, that doesn't give Euros the right to call themselves Aryans. Should Finnish people call themselves Gealic, because they're related to Irish? No.
 
Region/HaplogroupI1I2*/I2aI2bR1aR1bGJ2J*/J1E1b1bTQNSample size
 
First of all I am an amateur historian and not a professional geneticist. I teach history and I mainly use historical sources to explain my reasons. And no-- these are not guesses. I never said the Romans imported hordes of Blacks into Rome or the provinces. I meant to say that the majority came from Syria, Judea and North Africa (more specifically Egypt), including Blacks. How many Blacks were imported no one knows. Either way these people mixed with the Romans and created the modern Italians. (Did you know that by the 5th century AD the majority of the population in Rome was non-Roman?) Yes there were many European slaves but an examination of the Italian DNA and the classical sources points to more Middle Eastern-North African than European. Even if there were 50% European and 50% non-European the Italians were mixed to a considerable extent. These figures clearly show that Italians are among the most mixed of all the peoples of Europe:
Italy4.532.5439915.5313.52.500
rate11.gif
North Italy713.54.549.57.5101.511200
rate11.gif
Tuscany41.52.5452.5911.529200
rate07.gif
Central Italy2.521.53361123511.5300
rate09.gif
South Italy2.53.51327.510.521.5418.52.500
rate09.gif
Sicily3.5314.5268.5233.520.5410
rate09.gif

As you can see some Italians are not even European as their DNA is more than 50% Middle Eastern/North African.

You dont have to tell me that Ancient Romans were related to the Celts. I know that. 4,000 years ago they were related but by the time of Julius Caesar the Romans were different. Language does not determine race. No one knows what the ancient Romans looked like but we do know that the Etruscans conquered the Romans and the Romans borrowed heavily fro Etruscans -- the legions, government, religion, and even manners. They also mixed with them. After the Romans conquered the Greeks they mixed with them as well. The Greeks were not fully European or "Aryan." We know from historical sources that the Ionians were descended form ancient peoples (Pelasgian?) who originally did not speak Greek. They adopted Greek probably in order to do business with the invading Mykenaians. Even Thucydides tell us on the causes of the Peloponnesian War that one of the reasons for the Spartans in deciding to go to war was that they suspected the Athenians were not Greek. Races change very rapidly over time when mixed with others that look different. Therefore the Romans were very mixed by the time of Caesar.

Yes not all Romans were short, dark and swarthy. There were some tall, blondes, and red heads but they were a very small minority Only north of the Po valley were Italians fair and Celtic-looking, But these were not considered Roman). After the Celts were conquered they added more light hair to the "Romans." The same can be said of the Germans later on. However, the Romans, in general, were short, dark haired and eyed, and of fair to swarthy complexion. We see the evidence in their paintings, sculptures, and murals. I am also aware that not all Celts were blond or red haired with tall-muscular bodies. Some were dark. Yes I know who the Silures were. Again language does not determine race. Many peoples that were conquered by the Celts adopted the Celtic language. BUT , in general, the classical sources described the Celts as looking very similar to Germans. Even Julius Caesar got the Celts confused wit the Germans and vise versa.

170px-Dying_GaulDSCF6738.jpg
220px-Dying_Gaul_Musei_Capitolini_MC747.jpg
310px-0_Galata_Morente_-_Musei_Capitolini_%281%29.jpg


You can try and give me all this fancy DNA evidence to support your claims but history is also important.

I think you need to brush up on your classical history if you are going to be teaching European history, even if it's only in elementary school.

How do you think the Romans got all their slaves? They got them in the same way that all the ancient empires did, by war and conquest. First, they conquered and enslaved other peoples on the Italian peninsula, like the Sabines, and then the losers in the Social Wars, and then the people of Magna Graecia, and then Greece, and then the peoples of the northern part of the peninsula, like my own Ligurians, and the Spaniards, and the Gauls (400,000 in the first Gallic Wars alone), and the Germans, and the British tribes, and the people of Pannonia, and the Illyrians, and Thracians, and Dacians, and yes the Jews, in two major wars. The slaves from each of these regions had their own methods of fighting which they brought to the gladiatorial arena. Have you never read about any of these conquests and the slaves taken and sold as a result of them? You've never heard about the triumphs awarded to the generals where these slaves were paraded? You have no dim memory of any of this? Anyone who's ever read even a chapter on Roman history would know this, much less a whole volume.

Plus, Dna doesn't lie; historians do...Even when we're talking about modern historians writing about the the ancient world, they are extrapolating from very scant data or using ancient "historians" who are not historians in the modern sense at all. Dna can be massaged, but there are enough accredited scientists studying it that the truth does emerge eventually.

Regardless, you proclaim you don't know anything about genetics and then post a genetics table?

Still, it doesn't matter; if you understood the implications of the chart you could not be drawing these types of conclusions from it.

You really need to do some research before opining further. Otherwise, it's like pontificating on the differences between types of birds when you've never read Darwin.

See Lazaridis et al:
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2013/12/23/001552

See Gamba et al:
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141021/ncomms6257/full/ncomms6257.html

See Haak et al:
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/10/013433

View attachment 7269

Northern Spain is Pais Vasco.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Admixtures-Lazaridis.png
Admixtures-Lazaridis.png


As a supposed "Germanic Celt", you might be interested to discover how much of your own ancestry comes from the "Near East". At least 80% of the EEF figure is "Near Eastern". When we actually get some ancient genomes from the Near East we'll see if the figure is even higher. In rough terms, the difference between current Near Easterners and the EEF is that the EEF had some WHG and no ANE and the modern Near Easterners, in addition to their EEF, have a big chunk of ANE (which also came into Europe after the Neolithic) and, depending on the area, a minority slice of SSA (up to 10% in Palestinians, and at noise levels in most of the northern Near East. Western Eurasia is one big conglomeration of three ancient ancestral groups in differing proportions. That's the long and the short of it.

When you've read and absorbed the information there, I might be willing to discuss this further. Otherwise, there's really no point.

You know, I was politely asked this morning by another member to give some of our new and obviously inexperienced posters some slack since they are so clearly uninformed. I took it under advisement. :) My first instinct was correct. This isn't simple lack of information, with which I hope I'm always patient and polite; this is purposeful distortion of history and willful ignorance of science.

Btw, it has just occurred to me that once again the obsession of some hobbyists with Italian genetics has taken over a thread dedicated to another topic. I apologize for my own contribution to that. From now on, please post your comments about Italian genetics on an appropriate thread. You have an abundance of choices. This is a thread about the DNA of Iberians.

Ed. The attachment is below. I don't know why it didn't post originally.

Lazaridis et al 3 population figures.jpg
 
Blacks in Roman times?is this a joke or i haven't understand that post?lol
About the slaves, they came from everywhere the Empire but many were relocated not only in Italy but outside Italy and in other parts of the Empire, so technically all the modern nations under the Roman empire had slaves from everywhere.
Anyway in the Roman era they barely know ancient Berbers but about the blacks I really doubt.
 
Sub-Saharan slaves were also brought to "Renaissance" Italy, and their estimated numbers do not appear very different from those imported into Iberia or England during those imperial days.

Italy hadn't black slave trade unlike Lisbon and Seville ;)
 
Italy hadn't black slave trade unlike Lisbon and Seville ;)

Italy had more white slaves than black ones..........but from what I read from historians

slavery stopped in Venice in 1435 and stopped in Genoa in 1477 ............I do not know about other Italian medieval states
 
Celts were an insignificant minority in Iberia. Indeed there is no genetic difference between Celtic and non Celtic areas in Iberia.

Johannes is a dreamer. In-Deep subclades analysis has proved that the Italian J and E haplotypes belong to the European branches and not to the Jewish/MENA ones.

Also IBD anaylis from Botigue et al proved that there is no recent (last 4000 years) Jewish and MENA admixture in Italy.

Ancient Etruscans plotted between modern Italians, Iberians and South Slavs and were very far from Anatolians and other MENAs.
 
Last edited:
Ancient Etruscans plotted between modern Italians, Iberians and South Slavs and were very far from Anatolians and other MENAs.

By 500BC Estruscans could have become mostly native, and lost most of their original Estruscan blood. We have to consider that possibility.
 

This thread has been viewed 161983 times.

Back
Top