DNA of Iberians from Europe

[Johannes]

You are not from Iberia, but an American, right? You also list other backgrounds in your profile.

Yes I am American but many of my ancestors were from Iberia -- Old Castile and Basque country. My ancestors were basically Germanics, Celts, and Iberians (if we can include the Basques in this category).

I did not deviate the topic from Iberians to Italians. Its the Italian woman here who did it. All I said was that by the time of Julius Caesar the Romans looked very different form Celts. I further stated that during the Roman Empire the Romans mixed extensively so that the Italians now look like Middle Eastern people, but then she suddenly began to spout all this arrogant condensation and abuse from her.

So do you think the Iberians carried R1b P312 which created the Basque marker? I am beginning to realize that the Iberians were probably the same as the Basques and that they were a Pre-Indo-European people similar to Celts and early Romans. This explains why Basques have so much R1b. Unfortunately no one seems to know anything about Iberians.

 

[Angela]

Did I rain on your parade or something?:grin: Otherwise, the word you might have been searching for is "condescension".

Honestly, you need a really great sense of humor to be a moderator on this site.

For the record, I'm an equal opportunity enforcer. Nonsense and illogical statements are pointed out no matter the ethnicity of the source, as is violation of forum rules. Nor do unsubstantiated racist remarks or homophobic or misogynist remarks have any place in reasoned debate. I'm patient and forbearing, but not that forbearing, so be advised.

 

[Johannes]

Look at the numbers you originally cited, they do not even make up 1% of the population of Roman-era Iberia. And by using the new (and likely inflated) numbers they still only would make up about 4% of the population. No matter how you want to look at it, the Romans in Iberia were only a very small minority. Ditto for the Vandals, Swabians and Goths. You are only dealing with military interventions here, not with actual migrations of entire populations. On top of that, these foreigners would have had very little contact with the bulk of the population of the peninsula, who lived in rural areas.

The population of Iberia was 4 millions. Most of the peopel lived in the south and eastern coast. Lets speculate for a moment: Andalusia and the eastern sea board constitutes about 2/3 of the population (most llived in cities and the rest of Iberia was populated by Celts in small tomws). Therefore about 2.5 millions lived in these areas. Italians came here and mixed with Iberians. So my calculations would make an infusion of 10% DNA into Iberians.

As far as Germanics: its logical to infer that all conquerors would get the best lands and best women: Therefore they would multiply much more than the conquered people or the subjects. Therefore the Germanic population of Iberia would have doubled and probably tripled by the 8th century. I am aware that there were famines and economic stagnation (Plagues hit Iberia shortly before the Muslim Invasion). But the people who possess the best lands tend to breed more children. This is common sense. Therefore by my calculations -- given that there were 4 millions in Iberia throughout the 5th to 8th centuries (Dark Ages) -- the Germanic population would have increased to around 20%. I remember reading an article a long time ago by a scholar who studied the names of males in Iberia and he stated that 85% were Gothic but after the Muslim invasion 85% were Catholic saints. This proved that the Goths were admired and that there was no racial hatred between Germanics and Ibero-Romans. This agrees with the Anglo-Saxon settlements in England and Scotland. The winners get the best land and multiply; while the losers get the worst and dont multiply.

 

[Johannes]

Did I rain on your parade or something?:grin: Otherwise, the word you might have been searching for is "condescension".

Honestly, you need a really great sense of humor to be a moderator on this site.

For the record, I'm an equal opportunity enforcer. Nonsense and illogical statements are pointed out no matter the ethnicity of the source, as is violation of forum rules. Nor do unsubstantiated racist remarks or homophobic or misogynist remarks have any place in reasoned debate. I'm patient and forbearing, but not that forbearing, so be advised.

Yes I dont like arguing with you because its clear that you are arrogant and have some agenda: for example, if you dislike or someone makes a mistake or you disagree with someone you become arrogant and try to deluge everyone with you genetic information and then discredit them. I never made "nonsense or illogical statements" YOU are the one who thinks I did. That is your opinion. By the way: I dont think you are so knowledgeable about history. And I appreciate it if you stop responding to my posts. Its annoying. I learn very little from you.

 

[Vukodav]

Goths made just 1% of Iberian population and were mostly assimilated Balkaners, Greeks, Italians and Southern French, not pure breed Germanics from Sweden.

After the Moorish conquest of Iberia, many Goths were either killed or fled north to the kingdom of the Franks. The few who remained, converted to Islam and mixed with the Moors.

 

[Angela]

Yes I dont like arguing with you because its clear that you are arrogant and have some agenda: for example, if you dislike or someone makes a mistake or you disagree with someone you become arrogant and try to deluge everyone with you genetic information and then discredit them. I never made "nonsense or illogical statements" YOU are the one who thinks I did. That is your opinion. By the way: I dont think you are so knowledgeable about history. And I appreciate it if you stop responding to my posts. Its annoying. I learn very little from you.

Members here, including moderators, can read and respond to any post or thread they choose. If you don't wish to read my posts, don't read them. I myself, unfortunately, have to try to read a lot of them, and particularly those of people likely to step over the line, who are often the most uninformed and the likeliest to distort data. Keep your comments civil, however, or you will get an infraction. I have been looking at my stats, and I have been lax in comparison to my fellow moderators.

 

[Drac II]

Goths made just 1% of Iberian population and were mostly assimilated Balkaners, Greeks, Italians and Southern French, not pure breed Germanics from Sweden.

After the Moorish conquest of Iberia, many Goths were either killed or fled north to the kingdom of the Franks. The few who remained, converted to Islam and mixed with the Moors.

And you can back up most of these claims? Somehow I suspect you don't.

 

[Drac II]

I checked your historian and I believe he is wrong. Population of Iberia was closer to 4 millions. My source is Spanish. Google "La evolución de la población española en la época precensal." I doubt the Iberian population would have deceased by 2 millions from 100 BCE to the time of Augustus. Of course many thousands were killed and enslaved during the Iberian Wars, but I think the Spanish article is true.

That's just some WikiPedia article written by who-knows-who and it does not seem to offer any references for such Roman-era estimates. Plus there's huge gaps of hundreds of years between them. And also all of them are for the centuries AD.

 

[Drac II]

Yes I am American but many of my ancestors were from Iberia -- Old Castile and Basque country. My ancestors were basically Germanics, Celts, and Iberians (if we can include the Basques in this category).

I did not deviate the topic from Iberians to Italians. Its the Italian woman here who did it. All I said was that by the time of Julius Caesar the Romans looked very different form Celts. I further stated that during the Roman Empire the Romans mixed extensively so that the Italians now look like Middle Eastern people, but then she suddenly began to spout all this arrogant condensation and abuse from her.

So do you think the Iberians carried R1b P312 which created the Basque marker? I am beginning to realize that the Iberians were probably the same as the Basques and that they were a Pre-Indo-European people similar to Celts and early Romans. This explains why Basques have so much R1b. Unfortunately no one seems to know anything about Iberians.

That the Iberians were pre-Indo-Europeans there is little doubt about, the language they spoke was not Indo-European. It wasn't Semitic either. It belongs in a similar class as Basque. Celtic languages, on the other hand, are Indo-European.

 

[Vukodav]

And you can back up most of these claims? Somehow I suspect you don't.

About the percentage of Visigoths in Iberia read:

Ripoll López, Gisela (1989). "Características generales del poblamiento y la arqueología funeraria visigoda de Hispania" . Espacio, Tiempo y Forma, S. I, Prehist. y Arqueol., t. 2. pp. 389–418.

About the fate of Visigoths after the Moorish conquest of Iberia read:

Baxter Wolf, Kenneth (8 May 2014). Christian Martyrs in Muslim Spain. Cambridge University Press. pp. 14–15. ISBN 1107634814.

 

[Johannes]

Goths made just 1% of Iberian population and were mostly assimilated Balkaners, Greeks, Italians and Southern French, not pure breed Germanics from Sweden.

After the Moorish conquest of Iberia, many Goths were either killed or fled north to the kingdom of the Franks. The few who remained, converted to Islam and mixed with the Moors.

Your comment here is rather simplistic to say the least. 1) The Goths never assimilated peoples from the Balkans or Greece. The Goths were composed of two nations: West (Visi) Goths and East (Ostro) Goths. They also had cousin nations living next to them, i.e., The Gepids, Heruli, and Rugii. The Goths occupied an area roughly composing of Western Ukraine, Moldova, and Transylvania. The Gepids, Heruli, and Rugii occupied areas in what is Hungary and Slovakia. After the Huns began attacking the Goths the Visigoths did move into Bulgaria and settled there but they were mistreated and quickly rebelled. After the destruction of four legions they pillaged Greece and moved into Serbia. They wanted to settle but the Roman Emperor offered them lands in the west. They eventually settled in SW France and Iberia. if they assimilated anyone of any consequence it was the Celts of France and Iberians. The Ostrogoths did live in Ukraine and then Romania. So they probably did gains some Skythian and Sarmatian DNA and later the cocktail of Italy. There was some mixing but you grossly exaggerate.

1% of the population? Where do you get such figures? From old Spanish historians who were totally ignorant about the Goths? There was only 4 million Ibero-Romans when the Germans arrived. The Swabians and the Goths probably numbered around a half million. And I am certain they increased their numbers in the 300 years of peace in the Iberian peninsula. My estimate is they numbered around 13-15% of the population. And they did not mix with the Ibero-Romans until after the Moorish occupation.

The Moors never exterminated a large amounts of Germanics. Almost all the Germanics fled to the mountains of the North and into SW France and returned almost immediately. The Goths who converted to Islam were the few nobles who wanted to retain their lands. Your analysis is so simplistic you make me laugh.

 

[Johannes]

About the percentage of Visigoths in Iberia read:

Ripoll López, Gisela (1989). "Características generales del poblamiento y la arqueología funeraria visigoda de Hispania" . Espacio, Tiempo y Forma, S. I, Prehist. y Arqueol., t. 2. pp. 389–418.

About the fate of Visigoths after the Moorish conquest of Iberia read:

Baxter Wolf, Kenneth (8 May 2014). Christian Martyrs in Muslim Spain. Cambridge University Press. pp. 14–15. ISBN 1107634814.

Ripoll Lopez is outdated. I read this when I was in BSU. She was using sources from old Spanish historians and there was very little study of the Goths at that time. She should not be trusted. I also read Kenneth Baxter. He wrote an article and then made it into a book. I read both and he does not know exactly what was the number of Goths. He only concentrates on the plight of the Christian Martyrs in Andalusia during the 9th century. He does deal with the Andalusi-Goths who converted to Islam to retain their lands and enter the Muslim bureaucracy but only by using individual examples. Again you exaggerate my friend.

 

[Drac II]

About the percentage of Visigoths in Iberia read:

Ripoll López, Gisela (1989). "Características generales del poblamiento y la arqueología funeraria visigoda de Hispania" . Espacio, Tiempo y Forma, S. I, Prehist. y Arqueol., t. 2. pp. 389–418.

The author concludes that the Visigothic population was somewhere around 130,000 to 150,000 tops (page 396.) If we consider the usual 6 million figure for the population of Iberia in Roman times, then they would have made up about 2.5% of the population, not 1%.

About the fate of Visigoths after the Moorish conquest of Iberia read:

Baxter Wolf, Kenneth (8 May 2014). Christian Martyrs in Muslim Spain. Cambridge University Press. pp. 14–15. ISBN 1107634814.

I took a look at pages 14-15, but there doesn't seem to be anything there about supposed massive killings of Visigoths and most of the remaining ones fleeing to France. Those pages deal mostly with taxation in the Muslim parts of Iberia.

 

[Johannes]

That the Iberians were pre-Indo-Europeans there is little doubt about, the language they spoke was not Indo-European. It wasn't Semitic either. It belongs in a similar class as Basque. Celtic languages, on the other hand, are Indo-European.

so based on similarities between Iberian and Basque languages plus the R1b subclades they were both related? R1b in the Basque regions is about 80%. In Catalonia-Valencia 60-70%. That is were the Iberians lived. So there must be some connection.

 

[Johannes]

That's just some WikiPedia article written by who-knows-who and it does not seem to offer any references for such Roman-era estimates. Plus there's huge gaps of hundreds of years between them. And also all of them are for the centuries AD.

And were does your source get his for his book? does he explain???

 

[Vukodav]

The author concludes that the Visigothic population was somewhere around 130,000 to 150,000 tops (page 396.) If we consider the usual 6 million figure for the population of Iberia in Roman times, then they would have made up about 2.5% of the population, not 1%.

No the author says they were less than 130-150.000.

"Como conclusión podemos decir que no existe ningún dato estadísticofiable, pero que, aún siendo todos ellos hipotéticos, permiten creerque el número de pobladores visigodos de la Península Ibérica no superóla cifra total de 130.000 o 150.000 individuos."

Regarding the total number of Hispano Romans read pp 392

"El mismo historiador, considera más verosímilun número aproximado de 200.000 visigodos frente a unos ocho o nuevemillones de hispanorromanos. Por el contrario García Gallo, eleva mucho más el número de hispanorromanos y los calcula en unos docemillones "

There were between 8-12 million of Hispano Romans, so they made up about 1-2% of the poplation.

More than half of those Goths were probably assimilated Southern French, since only 70-90.000 Goths were living in France before migrating to Iberia.

"En el momento en que los visigodos consiguen el tratado de instalaciónen la Gallia en el año 418, su número oscila entre unas 50.000 y100.000 personas. Esto representaría una cifra aproximada de 70.000 a90.000 individuos visigodos en el territorio peninsular hispánico duranteel siglo VI, teniendo en cuenta que un cierto número de familias se quedaríaen el territorio aquitano y sin tomar en consideración aquellos quesiguieron habitando en la Narbonense."

 

[Johannes]

The author concludes that the Visigothic population was somewhere around 130,000 to 150,000 tops (page 396.) If we consider the usual 6 million figure for the population of Iberia in Roman times, then they would have made up about 2.5% of the population, not 1%.

I took a look at pages 14-15, but there doesn't seem to be anything there about supposed massive killings of Visigoths and most of the remaining ones fleeing to France. Those pages deal mostly with taxation in the Muslim parts of Iberia.

I will agree that after the goths arrived in SW France they numbered 150,000 because they had fought many battles and lost a lot of men. But then you take into consideration that the Goths lived more or less in peace for 300 years their numbers must have increased. History teaches us that the people who conquer other people get the best land and multiply faster than the conquered. We need to include the numbers of the Swabians as well. thus together they must have doubled their numbers by the time the Muslims arrived. Dont trust Spanish historians. They are third rate. Read the English and better the Germans. I never understood why Spaniards have ignored the Germanics in Iberia (probably because they were liberal and hated Franco and his Fascists??)

 

[Johannes]

No the author says they were less than 130-150.000.

"Como conclusión podemos decir que no existe ningún dato estadísticofiable, pero que, aún siendo todos ellos hipotéticos, permiten creerque el número de pobladores visigodos de la Península Ibérica no superóla cifra total de 130.000 o 150.000 individuos."

Regarding the total number of Hispano Romans read pp 392

"El mismo historiador, considera más verosímilun número aproximado de 200.000 visigodos frente a unos ocho o nuevemillones de hispanorromanos. Por el contrario García Gallo, eleva mucho más el número de hispanorromanos y los calcula en unos docemillones "

There were between 8-12 million of Hispano Romans, so they made up about 1-2% of the poplation.

More than half of those Goths were probably assimilated Southern French, since only 70-90.000 Goths were living in France before migrating to Iberia.

"En el momento en que los visigodos consiguen el tratado de instalaciónen la Gallia en el año 418, su número oscila entre unas 50.000 y100.000 personas. Esto representaría una cifra aproximada de 70.000 a90.000 individuos visigodos en el territorio peninsular hispánico duranteel siglo VI, teniendo en cuenta que un cierto número de familias se quedaríaen el territorio aquitano y sin tomar en consideración aquellos quesiguieron habitando en la Narbonense."

Those figures for the Ibero-Romans are grossly inaccurate. When you take into consideration the economic depression, wars, famines, people leaving the cities for the country, and the dramatic decrease of population during the end of the Roman Empire, t would have been impossible to feed that many people at that time. Population figures during the 5th century were very low. Western Europe was basically depopulated. Dont use Spanish sources. Try reading English versions.

You think that people during those times mixed like they do today? Sure all the Goths will mix with the population they ruled! You are so funny!

 

[Angela]

Luckily, we have an IBD analysis to hand:

"On the other hand, we find that France and the Italian and Iberian peninsulas have the lowest rates of genetic common ancestry in the last 1,500 years (other than Turkey and Cyprus), and are the regions of continental Europe thought to have been least affected by the Slavic and Hunnic migrations. These regions were, however, moved into by Germanic tribes (e.g., the Goths, Ostrogoths, and Vandals), which suggests that perhaps the Germanic migrations/invasions of these regions entailed a smaller degree of population replacement than the Slavic and/or Hunnic, or perhaps that the Germanic groups were less genealogically cohesive. This is consistent with the argument that the Slavs moved into relatively depopulated areas, while Gothic “migrations” may have been takeovers by small groups of extant populations [54],[55]."

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

Franco didn't come into power until the 1930s. Many speculations by historians, if not these particular ones, that the Goths were a very small group date to long before that, so no it's not an anti-German because anti-fascist conspiracy. Plus, the Italians invented fascism, unfortunately, not the Germans, so I don't know what that would have to do with anything.

Regardless, while it's notoriously difficult to pinpoint numbers of groups of people in the distant past, groups either exhibit IBD sharing with certain other groups or they don't. In this case they don't.

 

[Hauteville]

Here the map of Germanic heritage in Europe.