Very advanced Indoeuropeans - cows reveal their history! :-)

Please explain without invoking natural selection how blue eyes could start at all. I suppose, you believe that, Homo Sapiens came from Africa they had only black eyes to start with. How is it possible that first blue eyes happened and made itself dominant in black eyes population?


LeBrok, I was trying to explain you that thing for a long thead, and you still don't get it? :petrified:

No, because you allready know that:
1) It can be done only by natural selection
2) It can be done only in one way by natural selection.

You simply don't want find another explenations either for
natural selecton neither for some kind or way of that process.

Why? Because you already belive in one only true subdogma of the one only true dogma.

So, how can you be open minded and free thinking? :petrified:
 
The "loosing sens of life", "losing morality" is religious propaganda. To keep you away from free thinking, from taking all possibilities under consideration. Remember, every time you consider a possibility that God doesn't exist, you are sinning. You don't want that, do you?

There is no evil man saying "I'm going to prevent free thinking". That's such a myth. To call it propaganda is ridiculous, insulting, and wrongly making innocent people look like manipulative bad guys. No one is trying to prevent free thinking. It clearly shows you're aggressive attitude towards in this subject. Those are attack words. People simply believe in something and dis agree with other things.

There's nothing wrong about believing in something that doesn't have 100% prove. Nothing really can be proven as a fact. Like what Jesus said "thou hast seen me, thou hast believed; blessed are those that have not seen and yet have believed." There's nothing wrong with faith, and some people have lost that value. Life is more complicated than a test tube or what we can see and understand.
 
No reason.
Simply deduction and logic.
That's all.

Logic and deduction is what scientists use, the scientists who study evolution, and natural selection as part of that evolution, and who have studied how pigmentation works, in fish, in mammals and in humans. In the same way, archaeology tells us about the flow of culture into and out of different areas, and genetics show us about how ancient populations admixed in different proportions to create modern groups. You can embrace that, or you can rely on myths and ideology. I'm sure if you think about it, you'll prefer to be part of the former rather than the latter.

@FireHaired.
Science and religion are not, in my opinion, necessarily antithetical. Believe me, it's quite possible to be a regular church goer and a believer in science and evolution at the same time.

I don't know your religious persuasion, but every Roman Catholic theologian who ever instructed me would tell you that the Bible is a book of religion, not science. Even the Pope believes in evolution! :)
 
More seriously, I don't think Rethel is 100% against the theory of the natural selection, he is against the way that have been used like a magical explanation, blue eyes

We had with LeBrok a very long disscusion about such matter, and I was trying to explain him
how totaly accidental recessive mutation could servive and spread across the continent, without
any unnatural intervention. He couldn't get it, because he is such deep and devot beliver, that
any reasonable and logical explanation cannot change his religios belives... I was using almost
only natural ways, historical/anthropological examples, and elementary logic... everything in vain...

if you are not agree, please explain me how today, in USA, among Whites peoples, despites that they have the populations with more powers, blue eyes simply disappear

Yea!(y)
Why they vanished among Latinos and Negros who has very huge european admixture...
The same in 20-some american countres, in north and central Africa, in Turkey, Armenia,
Georgia, China, India,. Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Indonesia, Arabia a.s.o...

Everywhere recessive genes were vanished, but in Scandinavia was a miracle! :LOL:

Oh! Holy Penninsula of Miracles!
0recourse.gif
 
No, not 99%, there are too much problem also with modern peoples to be sure for ancients WHG; for example, for what I have read, the karitiana, an ameridians groups have the genes for blue eyes, but have dark brown eyes..so I guess other factors could play a role.

How do you know some Karitiana don't have blue eyes? It makes sense because of their ANE ancestry, and ANE is closely related to WHG.
 
How do you know some Karitiana don't have blue eyes? It makes sense because of their ANE ancestry, and ANE is closely related to WHG.

ANE is closely related to indo-europeans too and Yamna were supposed to be half WHG...for Karitiana, how I know they don't have blue eyes ? Very simple, with the pictures:

https://www.google.fr/search?q=kari...ChMIrrG3pamSxgIVBOsUCh3GDwDQ&biw=1600&bih=789

You can find also the pictures of the Karitiana who have been tested, all brown dark eyes.

dark skin and blue eyes don't work together, it's the other big problem with the WHG theory.
 
ANE is closely related to indo-europeans too, how I know Karitiana don't have blue eyes ? Very simple, with the pictures:

https://www.google.fr/search?q=kari...ChMIrrG3pamSxgIVBOsUCh3GDwDQ&biw=1600&bih=789

dark skin and blue eyes don't work together, it's the other big problem with the WHG theory.

A small minority probably have blue(or another type of light) eyes. You can't expect to find them in those pictures. There's actually an entire haplotype with over 10 markers, that 97% of blue eyed people have(In Middle East and EUrope), and WHGs have it. So, not just 1 marker.
 
We had with LeBrok a very long disscusion about such matter, and I was trying to explain him
how totaly accidental recessive mutation could servive and spread across the continent, without
any unnatural intervention. He couldn't get it, because he is such deep and devot beliver, that
any reasonable and logical explanation cannot change his religios belives... I was using almost
only natural ways, historical/anthropological examples, and elementary logic... everything in vain...



Yea!(y)
Why they vanished among Latinos and Negros who has very huge european admixture...
The same in 20-some american countres, in north and central Africa, in Turkey, Armenia,
Georgia, China, India,. Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Indonesia, Arabia a.s.o...

Everywhere recessive genes were vanished, but in Scandinavia was a miracle! :LOL:

Oh! Holy Penninsula of Miracles!
0recourse.gif

Lol again 100% agree with you Rethel, that have absolutely no sense.
 
A small minority probably have blue(or another type of light) eyes. You can't expect to find them in those pictures. There's actually an entire haplotype with over 10 markers, that 97% of blue eyed people have(In Middle East and EUrope), and WHGs have it. So, not just 1 marker.

Yes, and that the case with these peoples but they don't have blue eyes, you can find some discussion about that in various forums, and you know they are not a very large group, they are a tiny tribe (320 peoples !!!), if one of them would have blue eyes, that would have been well known.
 
I once made correlation of blond hair % vs EHG and WHG proportion in Euro populations after Haak et al.
EHG was rather perfect match, with high over 90% R squared and positive. WHG was positive but not perfect. Probably, although in data both EHG and WHG were present (it was 3 way WHG, EHG, EEF model) correlation was only caused by EHG rich pops having more WHG too.

If you can point me to blue eyes stats by population and relevant EHG/WHG/(EEF or ENF) mix for that population I can draw a correlation line and check on blue eyes too.
 
LeBrok, I was trying to explain you that thing for a long thead, and you still don't get it? :petrified:

No, because you allready know that:
1) It can be done only by natural selection
2) It can be done only in one way by natural selection.

You simply don't want find another explenations either for
natural selecton neither for some kind or way of that process.

Why? Because you already belive in one only true subdogma of the one only true dogma.

So, how can you be open minded and free thinking? :petrified:
I already explained it by ways of Natural Selection (mutations and natural forcings). Why would I look for another explanation? Natural selection is in tune with laws of physics, statistical modeling, changing environment, and other subtleties of known Universe. On other hand you don't have explanations at all, no viable hypothesis. You constantly recall miracles to explain things that you don't grasp, and come back confused with always the same questions.

And now you are asking me to open my mind? I'm not the one who is confused. I have a valid and scientific explanation, you have your miracles. My mind was opened for miracles first 20 something years of my life, and I was just as confused as you.
 
I don't have to explain something, I'm not a scientific, but I know when something have no sense; if you are not agree, please explain me how today, in USA, among Whites peoples, despites that they have the populations with more powers, blue eyes simply disappear and how a tiny minority like WHG should have been abble to give to a vast majority an extremely recessive traits...there are something wrong somewhere.
Do you understand General Theory of Relativity? Me neither, it is not sitting well in my head, and it is counter intuitive to most human minds. However by empirical evidence and mathematical formulas we know that Einstein was right. Only few top minds can really grasp it, the rest of us need to take it on faith.
Is is exactly the same with Evolution and Natural selection. Just because it doesn't make sense to you, it doesn't mean it is wrong. As Angela and I said, it is confirmed by archaeology, by biology, by observable mutations, by population genetics, and it is in agreement with laws of physics, statistics and computer modeling. What else do you want to believe in it, miracle?

And so explain me how natural selection could work about blue eyes, when it's well known that blue eyes don't give any advantage in the nature.
There was never a serious research into advantage of blue eyes in certain environments, so we don't know for sure if it does or not. Some people claim, blue eyes can see better in dark. There is another viable explanation for blue eyes. It as well, might have been a side effect of some white skin and hair mutations. Statistically the whiter the skin and hair the bigger the chance of having blue eyes.
All we know for sure so far that white skin is advantageous in higher latitudes, because it produced more vitamin D. We also know that black skin is advantageous in Africa for skin cancer protection. Sun is intensive enough there, so even black skin can produce enough vitamin D. If all if this didn't matter, we would have had examples of black tribes living in Siberia, Alaska or Scandinavia. So far I'm not aware of any.

For peoples "come from Africa", lot of scientific don't necessary agree with this theory, so no I don't specially believe that humans or homo-sapiens (whatever you call them) come from Africa.
So far the overwhelming archaeological evidence, and now supported by modern population genetics point to Africa.
Again, just because you don't like it, it doesn't make it wrong.
 
Numerous scientists have examined the genomes of the WHG. They were homozygous for the snps which lead to blue eyes, but did not possess any of the modern European snps for pale skin. There is, I suppose, a possibility that they possessed some other snps which depigmented them of which we're not aware, but it is hardly a parsimonious theory
Check this out, Angela: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ns-brought-Europe-Near-East-study-claims.html

It seems that western hunter-gatherers were a bit different from Scandinavian hunter-gatherers.


2758AA2A00000578-3028813-image-a-20_1428414965553.jpg


And this article refers to a third gene on Scandinavians: http://news.sciencemag.org/archaeology/2015/04/how-europeans-evolved-white-skin

"They also had a third gene, HERC2/OCA2, which causes blue eyes and may also contribute to light skin and blond hair. Thus ancient hunter-gatherers of the far north were already pale and blue-eyed, but those of central and southern Europe had darker skin."
 
dark skin and blue eyes don't work together, it's the other big problem with the WHG theory.
I have a surprise for you:
007bd45f2f60657db4e578de1e95e668.jpg

https://www.google.ca/search?q=blac...ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMI0bDe6YmTxgIVzpeICh2zfABf

Or this:
images


Mutations happen spontaneously. The thing is that if this mutation is not beneficial it doesn't have much chance spreading into entire tribe or population. Some traits might be lucky or persist on sexual selection, but if it doesn't bring much of a benefit to health and survival of offspring, it is sooner or later dropped off the genome.
The blond hair in Papua tribes is very interesting and intriguing. Many kids are blond when they are young. Perhaps we witness a beneficial mutation of blond hair in hot climate independently from European blond. Nobody knows yet, but it doesn't mean that in future science can't explain it. We just didn't care much about this yet to do any research into this phenomenon.

What surprises many people, and it creates some confusion in explanation is that European blondism is made of many independent mutations. It is a conglomeration of mutations. Some are from EEF farmers, some from WHG, some from ANE. Only natural selection, population genetics, beneficial gene flow, historical movements of people, can explain why these all beneficial genes found the perfect place by Baltic and North Sea.

What Rethel proposes is that all of these white mutations in Europe popped up spontaneously there. He is yet to explain why only there and not around the planet. Sure one or two mutations can pop up anywhere, and the above pictures are the best example. But several popping up and most importantly persisting for thousands of years in Scandinavia?! Statistically it doesn't make sense. It only make sense in relation to environment, in contexts of environment, selection of beneficial genes by environmental forcing. In this case low UV radiation there.
 
We had with LeBrok a very long disscusion about such matter, and I was trying to explain him
how totaly accidental recessive mutation could servive and spread across the continent, without
any unnatural intervention. He couldn't get it, because he is such deep and devot beliver, that
any reasonable and logical explanation cannot change his religios belives... I was using almost
only natural ways, historical/anthropological examples, and elementary logic... everything in vain...
Please explain why, by ways of accidental mutations, some tribes don't have two harts, 6 eyes, 3 hands, translucent skin, black fingernails, etc?


Yea!(y)
Why they vanished among Latinos and Negros who has very huge european admixture...
The same in 20-some american countres, in north and central Africa, in Turkey, Armenia,
Georgia, China, India,. Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Indonesia, Arabia a.s.o...

Everywhere recessive genes were vanished, but in Scandinavia was a miracle! :LOL:

Oh! Holy Penninsula of Miracles!
0recourse.gif

Keep digging, lol. Please, finely educate yourself what recessive gene means. It doesn't mean it vanishes into nothing. Is this what you are implying?
 
Lebrok,

How do you explain blonde hair in West Asia, North Africa, and South Asia? It obviously didn't originate as a result as mixtures between EEF/WHG/Steppe(ANE).
 
Check this out, Angela: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ns-brought-Europe-Near-East-study-claims.html

It seems that western hunter-gatherers were a bit different from Scandinavian hunter-gatherers.


2758AA2A00000578-3028813-image-a-20_1428414965553.jpg


And this article refers to a third gene on Scandinavians: http://news.sciencemag.org/archaeology/2015/04/how-europeans-evolved-white-skin

"They also had a third gene, HERC2/OCA2, which causes blue eyes and may also contribute to light skin and blond hair. Thus ancient hunter-gatherers of the far north were already pale and blue-eyed, but those of central and southern Europe had darker skin."

That's actually not too bad as a simplistic summary of the tentative conclusions reached thus far by researchers working in the field. Usually reporters, even science reporters, get it much more wrong than this.

They're still missing some facts, however. If I'm remembering correctly (and if I'm not please correct the record) there were a few stray de-pigmentation genes in some of the WHG, and the "light genes" were not uniform among hunter gatherers in the far north. The SHG were a specific subset. (We're also not even sure how much genetic input there is from them.) Arvistro has posted about a proposed link with the EHG. However, if I remember correctly, the EHG were not all fair. Furthermore, the Central European farmers had some people with light hair, eye and skin snps, yet I don't think they're modeled with EHG, are they? (You can see the results in Gamba et al.)

That component came later, supposedly with the Indo-Europeans, yet look at their pigmentation.

I coincidentally just saw this posted on anthrogenica by "Sein". It's really apropos, so I hope he doesn't mind my posting it here.

"According to Allencroft et al., the derived mutation at rs16891982 (SLC45A2) was found at only around 25% in the Bronze Age steppe (!), and the derived mutation at rs12913832 (OCA2-HERC2) was found at 0%. To put that in perspective, that means these people were darker than living Pakistanis, who have higher percentages of the derived mutation at rs16891982, and who do display the derived mutation at rs12913832 (but at very low levels for this mutation). Same with Yamnaya in Haak et al., these people were much darker than any living population in Europe, and approached lighter South Asian populations in terms of pigmentation genetics."

If that's correct, and all of the steppe people looked like this they certainly didn't bring pale pigmentation to Europe.

There is something going on other than migration of peoples carrying these traits. As others have been pointing out, these are indeed recessive traits. It has to be down to selection, and recent selection, and that's indeed what the researchers are saying. I don't see how it can be denied.

What we don't totally understand is the mechanism. It's a little clearer for lactase persistence, because we can see the benefit in terms of nutrition in regions of Europe where you can't grow things all year long. With skin color it also makes some sense in terms of adaptation to UV light, but why the sudden acceleration? Did blue eyes serve a function we don't yet understand? Or, perhaps, it was a chance mutation that persisted in isolated hunter gatherer bands, but was selected for later on?

If I were a researcher in this field I would look at the areas around the locations for these depigmentation snps. They're all close together. What other snps are near them? What function do they serve? What other purposes could the depigmentation snps serve? Are they tied into other mechanisms, and something in the changed environment affected these other mechanisms? I think that in addition to latitude a change in diet away from seafood and more heavily cereal based may be part of the answer and should certainly be investigated, but I also think it may have something to do with lactase and that the two are somehow connected.

There's still a lot of research to be done, but what I think can't be denied is that changes were happening in these two areas, and happening quickly, and furthermore that our views of the past were wrong on so many levels. Ancient dna surprises, and surprises, and surprises.
 

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