The easternest heimat of Indoeuropeans.

Rethel

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In preavious decades were existing many strange theories about indoeuropean homeland.
One of them was theory which claimed that IE come from Takla Makan region, others, that
from Altai, and was one, even strong one theory (which my teacher of geography shared)
that IE came form Kazakh uplands or nearby. The excavations made in Mal'ta near Baykal
Lake, seems to confirm in some part this kind of theories, which placed Indoeuropeans as
far on the east as it is possible. My question is: do still exists some 'schools' or 'defenders'
of that kind of theories, or all this theories are allready dead? Maybe someone knows?
 
Feeling lost in time? Mal'ta boy lived 24 thousand years ago and was a hunter gatherer. There is no reason to suspect that he carried anything remotely culturally aching to IEs. IEs is a cultural phenomenon, coming from mixture of at least 3 distinct populations of Europe (ANE, WHG and EEF) which had a beginning around 5 - 6 thousand years ago, when farming took hold in the Steppe. IEs were farmers of bronze age, who lived 20 thousand years later than HG Mal'ta. There is no material and cultural connection between them, except continuity of some genes.

By the way, could you make sure you use word "theory" correctly. I'm sure the word you're looking for is "hypothesis".
 
Ok, fine LeBrok,
but I wasn't talking about time,
but about places.
Could you focus on that, please?


Feeling lost in time? Mal'ta boy lived 24 thousand years ago and was a hunter gatherer. There is no reason to suspect that he carried anything remotely culturally aching to IEs. IEs is a cultural phenomenon, coming from mixture of at least 3 distinct populations of Europe (ANE, WHG and EEF) which had a beginning around 5 - 6 thousand years ago, when farming took hold in the Steppe. IEs were farmers of bronze age, who lived 20 thousand years later than HG Mal'ta. There is no material and cultural connection between them, except continuity of some genes.

This is totaly different discussion.
But they didn't fall from the sky, or maybe did? :unsure:


By the way, could you make sure you use word "theory" correctly. I'm sure the word you're looking for is "hypothesis".

Ok, no problem.
So - hypothesis.
 
Ok, fine LeBrok,
but I wasn't talking about time,
but about places.
Could you focus on that, please?
According to Special Theory of Relativity you can't separate these two. Can we talk about pharaohs culture and language in modern population of Egypt? After all it is the same place. Cultures, religions, languages change rather quickly; they move from place to place, they transform in something else or they simply die off, replaced by new cultural phenomenon. Languages change very quickly, modern cultures became drastically different in scale of hundreds of years, and there are no religions older or stable for more than 3 thousand years. On other hand genetic continuity is more visible for much longer time, tens or even hundreds thousands of years.
So far archaeology, linguistics and population genetics point to Steppe homeland of IEs of Yamna culture. You will need incredible hypothesis and lots of artifacts of many sciences to make a dent in it.



But they didn't fall from the sky, or maybe did? :unsure:
You know Eupedia existed way before you showed up. You are not the first one starting a thread about beginnings of IEs. Why don't you get busy an look for existing threads and catch up on this subject. We'll be still here when you come back.
 
Le Brok, you are creating a problem that dosent exist.

I was simply asking about that: do still exists some 'schools' or 'defenders'
of that kind of theories, or all this theories are allready dead?

That's all.

I didn't do any and none statements.
Can you understand that simple matter?
 
LeBrok: You know Eupedia existed way before you showed up. You are not the first one starting a thread about beginnings of IEs. Why don't you get busy an look for existing threads and catch up on this subject. We'll be still here when you come back.

What he said!:grin:

Plus, if you really want to be knowledgeable, go to the library and borrow a copy of "The Horse, The Wheel and Language" by David Anthony.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Horse,_the_Wheel_and_Language

The Indo-Europeans according to this are the people who lived on the Pontic Caspian Steppe from 4,000 to 3,000 BC.

Their ethnogenesis is the subject of Lazaridis et al, Haak et al, Allentoft et al, and the thousands and thousands of posts that have been written on the subject on this blog and others.

You can't discuss the fine points until you've done your homework and read them all. Well, you can post, but don't expect people to respond after a certain point.
 
You can't discuss the fine points

OMG, next one! :annoyed:

I don't want discuss anything, I want to know about people who support some hipothesis,.

That's all.

Dont persuade me, don't make me belive what I know or not, because I wasn't making any statements!

Is that clear?!:unsure:
 
maybe they were alians, they fell from the sky
they had blue eye and special power
 
craziest stories exist
how about this :

during ice age Mal'ta people domesticated and rode mammouth, but when mammouth went extinct they started riding horses
 
The third one...

What is wrong with you people?:unsure:

Seriously I don't understand their childish reaction, specially when your question is very clear.

About the Urheimat in East, I guess there are always some scholars who continues to defend differents positions regardless the evidences, some peoples continue see the Umeirath around Iran/central Asia or middle east, there are some scholars who continue probably to defend the out of India theory...so why not the Kazakh, or the Siberian theory (who is imho, a better theory than India or Iranian/middle east theory); I guess your teacher has probably more details about this point of view; but in internet today it's hard to find these hypothesis.

For example I find today the Yamna homeland harder to defend; and no more the "absolute true" like it was seen before, now that we know that there are no R1a among them.
 
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For example I find today the Yamna homeland harder to defend; and no more the "absolute true" like it was seen before, now that we know that there are no R1a among them.

Because Yamna was probably the homland for LAST COMMON stage language of todays languages.
People, were lived before that period, and certainly were speaking on some pre-proto-IE.

Situation is similar to for example romanic languages.
Last common ancestor was Latin from ca. V century,
which has roots to Rome about I CE. But it is clear, that
Romans didn't fall from heaven in V century or even in I
century, but were earlier, and their language replaced
earlier languages whith earliest stages:

1) Latynian dialects
2) Italics languages
3) Celtic languages (from common Italo-celtic roots) which themselves replaced earlier for example
4) lusitanic

It could be even that, like romanic languages would be replaced by germanic languages (whith te same subgroup Italo-celto-some germanic)
So we would have another stage and level of the same language (sub)group, replacing neibouring tounges.
But it would doesn't mean, that this people didn't exist before, before they replaced language or dialect.

Indoeuropeans-people, existed before Yamna.
Yamna is simply last common stage of present day languages.
That's all. Nothing more, and nothing less.

Where they lived earlier?

Probably in

- Dniestr-Boh Culture,
- Dniepr-Donets Culture,
- Samara Culture ceturies before Yamna.
- some where in Karelia 7000 years ago,
- somewhere in Smolensk-aeria
- maybe were some small groups in Europe among Old-Europeans, like this R1b in Katalonia 7000 y.a.

But if they existed, they where finaly replaced by post-Yamna-Indoeuropean language/dialect.

So I don't understand this laughing about even possibility, that IEans (people) were somewhere else before Yamna.
Because what? Because was prooved, that common ancestor of present day languages existed in some place in some time?

Of course it was like that, but it doesn't mean, that people falled from heaven at that time.

If every Indoeuropean language, would by replaced by Latin, it would means, that history of Indoeuropeans started in I or V century CE?

This would be a nonsense.

Besides, still exist a theories, which placed common pra-language even 9 thousand years ago.
But they are scientists, they can do such a thing. :rolleyes:
 
Visualisation of the oldest R1 according to the 'Ancient DNA' page.

32fbeb33feee4.gif
 
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