Where did proto-IE language start?

[bicicleur 2]

Let make it simple as possible and sure: PPIE language started in
Akkad. It is at least recorded, and there is no need for guessing.

Akkadian is just 4.5 ka and Semitic.
Maybe you mean Ubaid, which is 6.5 ka

 

[abelgalois]

According to current historical research it seems like either the Northern Caucasus or Eastern Anatolia.

 

[Rethel]

Akkadian is just 4.5 ka and Semitic.
Maybe you mean Ubaid, which is 6.5 ka

Akkad script is 1500years younger than the old-Anatolian languages

Im sorry but I'm a little confused. Wasn't the recorded Akkadian Language a branch of East Semitic Language? And Sumerian is a language isolate. Or is there another recorded language you have in mind? ^_^

O gosh, three guys, and all three can't read... I said
clearly that: PPIE started in Akkad (the place, some
geographical location) - not: Akadish language was IE.

Do you have a link?

Of course: http://www.vatican.va/archive/bible/genesis/documents/bible_genesis_en.html#Chapter 11

 

[Daemon2017]

Of course, R1b are IE, because they speaking IE languages.
But it's very hard to propose, that R1b was the first haplogroups, that speaked IE.

 

[Fatherland]

Of course, R1b are IE, because they speaking IE languages.
But it's very hard to propose, that R1b was the first haplogroups, that speaked IE.

Might have been different haplogroups involved in the proto-IE with R1-carriers as the greatest number of them, thus carrying most of the IE speakers.

 

[Nik]

The presence of R1b in Europe seems older then IE languages. If you narrow it down to specific clades then it would make sense, but personally I find that as mission impossible.

 

[twójstary]

Let's see... CWC is responsible for majority of steppe admixture in Europe(despite the fact that R1b dominates in West Europe) and as we all know CWC was R1a dominated. Pontic Steppe is said to b PIE homeland. What does that say?

 

[Yetos]

the 2 major Hypothesis
gives different results

Antony's mathod, (mainly Steppe and Yamnaa)
give
proto Anatolian 4500 BC
Germanic 3300 BC
Balt-Slavic 2800 BC
Greek 2500 BC
Indo-Iranian 2200 BC

the Ridge Warnon gives
Anatolian3500 BC
Celtic-italian 2500 BC
Greek Armenian 2500 BC
Iranian 2000 BC
Balt German Slavic 500 BC

choose

 

[Azzurro]

Probably between the interactions of Yamna and Maykop Cultures

 

[Mark]

Black Sea back when it was a lake.

 

[Ygorcs]

I don't think "R1a" or "R1b", haplogroups that as a whole go back way before the appearance of PIE, can be used to represent a specific culture or people. I really doubt that all R1a or R1b carrying males spoke the same language in the Late Neolithic, thousands of years after the appearance and dispersal of those haplogroups. Most, most unlikely.

That said, my personal impression is that the earliest form of PIE began in a R1a-majority area of the Pontic-Caspian steppe under heavy (cultural and possibly linguistic too) influence of Caucasian languages (maybe the ancestors of Northwestern Caucasian or Kartvelian, accounting for the perceived similarities of IE languages with those families?) and particularly changed by the influence of R1b-majority and more "farmer like" males in the steppe had had come, many generations earlier, from the Balkans or from the Black Sea coast of Anatolia/South Caucasus. Maybe that could be seen in the west-to-east and backforth dynamics between Sredny Stog (west) and Khvalynsk (east) leading to Yamnaya, which then inverted the axis of influence and cultural assimilation, expanding to the west.

I don't think PIE was a "pure" language of a local, isolated ethnicity, but a lingua franca that extended trough a huge territory with lots of variations in each region's genetic makeup, but with a dominance of R1a and R1b, and the language as a whole was the result of this gradual homogeneization after an originally multiethnic and mobile character.

 

[Ygorcs]

Are people seriously proposing an excerpt of the Bible as a proof of the urheimat of PIE? Come on, even a Christian as myself finds that totally out of place! I'm pretty sure the writers of the Bible weren't scientists and didn't concern themselves much about the specific piece of land where Proto-Indo-Europeans, who lived thousands of km away from the Israelites, came from...

 

[MOESAN]

I don't think "R1a" or "R1b", haplogroups that as a whole go back way before the appearance of PIE, can be used to represent a specific culture or people. I really doubt that all R1a or R1b carrying males spoke the same language in the Late Neolithic, thousands of years after the appearance and dispersal of those haplogroups. Most, most unlikely.

That said, my personal impression is that the earliest form of PIE began in a R1a-majority area of the Pontic-Caspian steppe under heavy (cultural and possibly linguistic too) influence of Caucasian languages (maybe the ancestors of Northwestern Caucasian or Kartvelian, accounting for the perceived similarities of IE languages with those families?) and particularly changed by the influence of R1b-majority and more "farmer like" males in the steppe had had come, many generations earlier, from the Balkans or from the Black Sea coast of Anatolia/South Caucasus. Maybe that could be seen in the west-to-east and backforth dynamics between Sredny Stog (west) and Khvalynsk (east) leading to Yamnaya, which then inverted the axis of influence and cultural assimilation, expanding to the west.

I don't think PIE was a "pure" language of a local, isolated ethnicity, but a lingua franca that extended trough a huge territory with lots of variations in each region's genetic makeup, but with a dominance of R1a and R1b, and the language as a whole was the result of this gradual homogeneization after an originally multiethnic and mobile character.

I agree for the most of your post. That said, a "lingua franca"? Yes, but for PIE it needs I think a languages playing the principal role, already well structured grammatically. Its very typical structure (for me at least) is not a late creation by convergence of very different languages. Just my today opinion.
I

 

[Ygorcs]

I agree for the most of your post. That said, a "lingua franca"? Yes, but for PIE it needs I think a languages playing the principal role, already well structured grammatically. Its very typical structure (for me at least) is not a late creation by convergence of very different languages. Just my today opinion.
I

Yes, definitely, but I said a "lingua franca" adopted by different yet similar ethnic groups with a significant R1b-majority Sredny Stog and Caucasian superstrate and/or adstrate. A lingua franca is not necessarily a pidgin or a creole derived from a pidgin, but just a particular language that is usually either dominant politically/socially or geographically very widespread and dispersed (preferably both) in the entire span of the territory, like Aramaic in the Iron Age Middle East for example or Koine Greek in the Aegean era during the Hellenistic perioc. I think PIE was kind of the Aramaic or the Greek of its time, and it probably wasn't exactly the same language anymore after it was adopted by a much larger population (maybe Anatolian represents the remnant of that Early PIE still more geographically and ethnically restricted?)

 

[Mark]

Yes, definitely, but I said a "lingua franca" adopted by different yet similar ethnic groups with a significant R1b-majority Sredny Stog and Caucasian superstrate and/or adstrate. A lingua franca is not necessarily a pidgin or a creole derived from a pidgin, but just a particular language that is usually either dominant politically/socially or geographically very widespread and dispersed (preferably both) in the entire span of the territory, like Aramaic in the Iron Age Middle East for example or Koine Greek in the Aegean era during the Hellenistic perioc. I think PIE was kind of the Aramaic or the Greek of its time, and it probably wasn't exactly the same language anymore after it was adopted by a much larger population.

While Europe was covered with glaciers, the Black Sea was a lake, smaller than today, its former coasts now submerged. I’ve envisioned R1b dominated populations generally on the South coasts down into Anatolia and R1a generally on the North coasts and then East. There will be many more discoveries around the Black Sea’s former coasts as well as those of the Persian Gulf (J dominated Semitic cultural roots).

 

[MOESAN]

some old SNP's of Y-R1b were found in Mesolithic Europe from Balkans to East-Baltic and a bit later in Ukraine; what proofs have we to date concerning its old implantation South the Caucasus? Some R1b elite would have had only a go-and-return with just the time to have a lift culturally speaking? Concerning the place of origin of the very Y-R1b involved in IE story I stay prudent

 

[Saetrus]

some old SNP's of Y-R1b were found in Mesolithic Europe from Balkans to East-Baltic and a bit later in Ukraine; what proofs have we to date concerning its old implantation South the Caucasus? Some R1b elite would have had only a go-and-return with just the time to have a lift culturally speaking? Concerning the place of origin of the very Y-R1b involved in IE story I stay prudent

The variance of R1b-M269 is heavily concentrated in the Eastern Anatolia/Armenian Highlands, the longest YDNA has been in a place the more variance it accumulates, so that indicates R1b-M269 was in that region for a long time before it expanded elsewhere.

 

[Gabriele Pashaj]

I think the people that carry the hgR1b or R1a could be the carriers of indo european languages

 

[Sile]

I think the people that carry the hgR1b or R1a could be the carriers of indo european languages

so what languages where brought to europe before R1a or Rb arrived ?

How did R1a and R1b people stop that other haplogroups around them to not learn indo-european ?

 

[MOESAN]

The variance of R1b-M269 is heavily concentrated in the Eastern Anatolia/Armenian Highlands, the longest YDNA has been in a place the more variance it accumulates, so that indicates R1b-M269 was in that region for a long time before it expanded elsewhere.

Old enugh study, but thanks.
This question of variance has always puzzled me. Have you not noticed that EVERYTIME the higher variance is in the less denser places and vice-et-versa? Y-haplo's hate always their place of birth? Does this not question people? I don't say I master variance concept; it seems to me it's based upon more verstaile STR's and not SNP's - I red with someones that sometimes it's the result of sink effect rather than of well effect; surely not valuable for every case of high variance, nevertheless. But to trace trails of Y-haplo's SNP's I'm tempted to rely more upon the succession of upstram/downstream SNP's and their absolute (all haplos) + relative (cmpared to the only very haplo in cause). In today pops, it's rather Balkans which show some upstream and downstream SNP's of R1b compared to L23, and not Anatolia or Caucasus; so Anatolia is maybe just a place not too far of the "cradle" of R1b-M269 but it seems to me it received more than it gave concerning it, maybe I'm wrong?... I see the principal trail from Central Asia passing North the Caucasus and not South of it, waiting for more information.
variance has surely some pertinence but I believe its interpretation ask for caution, so many events can play; I see it has an element of knowing among others, and not the only one, not the JUDGE.