Neolithic western Carpathian Basin - 356 pages

Angela said:
I think that's the right approach. We've learned that we should be cautious in speculating about what yDNA will show up where and in what time period.

So, I don't know what else may turn up in Vinca. However, it seems that Sopot, Lengyel and BL represent a movement from the south, a later movement, it's true, by about 700 years, but to reach the Sopot and Lengyel areas one route would take you through Vinca territory. So, early Vinca may not have had E-V13 and J2, but later Vinca (which continued for another 500 years), or at least the area around Vinca, might have been a different story.
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Thank you :) Exactly my thoughts. Also in regards to E-V13 and J2 movements...
 
Sile said:
I am not saying they are T or L , all I am saying is that F* in Lengyel on that chart was tested to a certain level and the results are in post#12. you can see what was tested positive and what was tested negative.

The blank one ( white cells ) are per what the the paper states is H1-M69 ( ydna ) ( noted as TOLM3 on the chart )

The lengyel already has noted 3 x G2a..............

The other 3 non-tested ( white cells ) could be J
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further on these F* from the paper

even if we make , BAL3, BAL 12 and VEJ12 all as J haplogroup ( but they cannot be J1 or J2 as they are tested negative for these ), we still have the following:
BAM17, 25, 26, BAL9, 11, 13 and CSAT19 with the only possibility of being either T or L markers

Then again, they could always remain as just F*

F* is noted as F-M89
F-M89* might share a common demographic history with H-M69, C5, R2 and L1 including J, R1b, and T.
F*(xG,H,I,J,K) is also found among Turkic people in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan, which is reported in the genetic study of Balaresque et al. (2015).[10]
[10] =

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg2014285a.html

the supptable for the paper above with its 461 ydna tested markers , clearly shows R1a in the eastern side of the caspian sea and very very little R1b. the conclusion is R1b pushed through the caucasus to get to the steppe and find their yamnya

[url]http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/ejhg2014285x3.pdf

But this means little in terms of the ancient findings of F* of the main paper on this thread

[/URL]
 
Trojet said:
The current Balkan I2a is called "Dinaric" and the TMRCA is no older than 2500 years.
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It is normal. Subclades are younger than clades. You have subclades of E-V13 which TMCRA is no older than 1,500 years. This is after Christ.

But subclades don't occur in vacuum. Man who is first person to carry any mutation has his father too and lives in tribe where members of tribe have same haplogroup (we can suppose this due to simplicity of discussion). There is continuity.

Trojet said:
All I said is that it would be premature to say that E-V13 and J2 were not part of the Vinca culture as you suggested.
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Could they become newcomers? Yes, why not. And it shows tolerance Vinca culture for newcomers by its indigenous/creators who were probably G2a, F* and I2a1.

Short example, only for explanation. You can imagine Europeans who created European culture. In second part of 20th century happened immigration in a large scale to Europe from Africa and Asia. Newcomers become new inhabitants of Europe, but of course they are not creators European culture.

Trojet said:
It would also be premature to try to link Vinca culture to any present ethnicities/cultures.
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It depends, I cannot know exactly what you mean. Vinca culture was very inventive, innovations created in Vinca culture (both technical and social) began to spread around ancient world. Many new culture undoubtedly contained what in the Vinca culture created. Some people have transferred these innovations and knowledge. In new cultures this knowledge was upgraded by its members. And so from the older to the newer culture there was some continuity.
 
Garrick said:
It is normal. Subclades are younger than clades. You have subclades of E-V13 which TMCRA is no older than 1,500 years. This is after Christ.

But subclades don't occur in vacuum. Man who is first person to carry any mutation has his father too and lives in tribe where members of tribe have same haplogroup (we can suppose this due to simplicity of discussion). There is continuity.



Could they become newcomers? Yes, why not. And it shows tolerance Vinca culture for newcomers by its indigenous/creators who were probably G2a, F* and I2a1.

Short example, only for explanation. You can imagine Europeans who created European culture. In second part of 20th century happened immigration in a large scale to Europe from Africa and Asia. Newcomers become new inhabitants of Europe, but of course they are not creators European culture.



It depends, I cannot know exactly what you mean. Vinca culture was very inventive, innovations created in Vinca culture (both technical and social) began to spread around ancient world. Many new culture undoubtedly contained what in the Vinca culture created. Some people have transferred these innovations and knowledge. In new cultures this knowledge was upgraded by its members. And so from the older to the newer culture there was some continuity.
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Im sorry, but I have no time or agenda to continue this discussion with you, unlike you. Im not going to waste my time here trying to give you facts and for some reason you feel the need to quote me on everything I say. There is nothing factually wrong what I said in those quotations. If there is, I would like someone else to point that out please.
 
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Angela said:
I think that's the right approach. We've learned that we should be cautious in speculating about what yDNA will show up where and in what time period.

So, I don't know what else may turn up in Vinca. However, it seems that Sopot, Lengyel and BL represent a movement from the south, a later movement, it's true, by about 700 years, but to reach the Sopot and Lengyel areas one route would take you through Vinca territory. So, early Vinca may not have had E-V13 and J2, but later Vinca (which continued for another 500 years), or at least the area around Vinca, might have been a different story.

I posted this map before. Someone asked for a source. I'm sorry but now I don't remember who asked or in what thread. My apologies. Anyway, it is a map of the Neolithic cultures which comes from the Wiki article on the Lengyel culture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lengyel_culture#/media/File:European_Late_Neolithic.gif

500px-European_Late_Neolithic.gif


If people go directly to the link, it can be read without benefit of a magnifying glass. :)
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could E-V13 came after IE in balkans?
 
Trojet said:
Im sorry, but I have no time or agenda to continue this discussion with you, unlike you. Im not going to waste my time here trying to give you facts and for some reason you feel the need to quote me on everything I say. There is nothing factually wrong what I said in those quotations. If there is, I would like someone else to point that out please.
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There's nothing factually wrong in anything you said. "Dinaric" I2a may not have been involved with Vinca at all. Regardless of whether that turns out to be true or not, Vinca has nothing to do with the Slavic "ethnogenesis".
 
Garrick said:
Sile, I sow that.

It can be T, it would be significant if it is so, please explain in details.

Vinca culture was great and significant for cultures which draw upon its heritage.

G2a were original farmers, as Le Brok says, and they spread farming in Europe, I2a had transition from hunter gatherers to farmers what is big significance in the human past, if F* were T carriers it means that T carriers gave contribution this magnificent culture.

E-V13, J2 and C carriers came later, they participated in other cultures (Sopot, Lengyel).
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All we have as ancient DNA is still meager at Europe scale. We saw "new" ancient haplos in the neolithic world contradicting our first bets. Nothing proves yet we shall not find more ancient Y-E1b and J2 (even J1) in future (the "past future" LOL). That said without any agenda or presupposed skeme -
 
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