I have no time nor interest to school you Slavs all day long. If you are interested go do some research. The proof is everywhere, whether it's genetics, history, language, archeology, but then again I go back to my favorite quote:
Y-DNA of Arbereshe vs Albanians vs Southern Italians
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I have no time nor interest to school you Slavs all day long. If you are interested go do some research. The proof is everywhere, whether it's genetics, history, language, archeology, but then again I go back to my favorite quote:
Maleth
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Albanians are descendants of populations of the prehistoric Balkans, such as the Illyrians, Dacians or Thracians.[1] Little is known about these people, and they blended into one another inThraco-Illyrian and Daco-Thracian contact zones even in antiquity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians
Present dna indicators and history are very much aligned, we are getting closer and closer.
Thank you Maleth
but I don't think they will ever accept the facts. I don't get it. I have nothing against Slavs. I actually have had a couple of Serbian friends. I respect their history, language, culture, traditions, etc. I don't get why they can't do the same for us Albanians.Maleth, 3.48% of E-V13 carriers in Europe and Turkey is Albanian. You can see how is small probability that they are ancestors of Albanians. Why not Bulgarians, Romanians, Greeks, Italians etc.
And we know they are not. Because today's clades of E-V13 are much younger. You can see:
TMRCA from 4,400 to 1,500 ybp
http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/
You know how long time we spent on Pelasgians but no one proof, not even a hint that they had any connection with Albanians.
Maleth, it is true. Original language (languages) of E-V13 is Afro Asiatic.
Eupedia:
E1b1b lineages are closely linked to the diffusion of Afroasiatic languages.
Yes languages of E-V13 carriers are extinct. A lot of languages unfortunately are extinct. Languages of I carriers are extinct. I had an exchange of views with Le Brok about it. This discussion is interesting.
Angela
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[QUOTE said:
I have no interest in taking sides in nationalistic disputes among Balkan peoples. I have no dog in the hunt, as they say.
All I know is that the haplogroups carried by Albanians have been in the Balkans since the Mesolithic (one branch of I2a), Neolithic (E-V13 and J2b) and Bronze Age (R1b and another branch of I2a), and yet we're supposed to believe that a people who carry all those clades at such high levels (especially E-V13 and J2b), and speaking an IE language, are Semites and Turks who suddenly arrived in the Balkans 1000 years ago?
Have you ever heard the phrase "drinking the kool-aid"?
That may be what was taught in certain quarters, but there is absolutely no scientific support for it. That's not to say that I think all the national groups in the Balkans have been tethered to certain kilometers of earth since the Neolithic. People no doubt moved around.
As to the E-V13 higher diversity in Bulgaria, there are a number of ways that could have happened, one of which is that E-V13 could have entered Europe during the Neolithic from northwest Anatolia via Bulgaria. (That's not the only way, of course.)
Ike
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Will someone stop this guy telling lies?
@Angela
And this is how it ends if you tolerate it.
Angela
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There is a fundamental misunderstanding here of how gene flow and language can interact.
Here is a very plausible scenario based on the facts as we now know them. The I2a Mesolithic people of the Balkans, who may be of a completely different branch than the I2a people who lived in the north or on the steppe, spoke goodness knows what mesolithic hunter gatherer language. As we now know, during the Neolithic at the latest they were joined by E-V13 and J2b people, who spoke who knows what farmer/cow herder language. I'm not even going to get into a discussion of it because it's irrelevant from which language family it derived; it got there in the Neolithic. During the Bronze Age, R1b people arrived and imposed Albanian, their Indo-European language, on the I2a, E-V13, and J2b people who were already there. Add in some minority later arriving "Dinaric" I2a and some R1a, et voila, you have the Albanians.
You should be aware that most people who read this site have at least a modicum of knowledge about genetics and archaeology and history, and they will not be convinced by these kinds of a-scientific and illogical arguments.
@Ike,
The poster Trojet has posted only arguments supported by scientific data. I see no such support for any of your commentary.
@Trojet,
I know that it's difficult, but there are rules about civility here...
I, for one, may have to read some of this stuff, but I don't have to waste time responding to it, so if I do it will be in the briefest of terms, just so that casual readers aren't misled into thinking that these arguments are accepted.
Hauteville
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Only 18 samples from Piana degli Albanesi is a really small number considering that it's the core of Arbereshe group.
I have read in supplementary infos that Arbereshe have more I-M223, E-M123 and slighty more percentale of U106.
Do they have got them with the mixing with local Sicilians and Calabrese or just low number of samples?
I have read in supplementary infos that Arbereshe have more I-M223, E-M123 and slighty more percentale of U106.
Do they have got them with the mixing with local Sicilians and Calabrese or just low number of samples?
Yes. IMO, the much higher frequencies of those 3 mentioned haplogroups in comparison to Albanian populaton, is a clear evidence that Arbereshe over the years have inherited a somewhat significant southern Italian Y chromosome as that paper suggests.
Angela, I just try to severity. You know, I'm supporter of Anatolian hypothesis and not Kurgan hypothesis. Although Kurgan hypothesis possible still has more support, I think science will round off Anatolian hypothesis. New Zealand scientists in basis of Anatolian hypothesis and using new methodology and computer modeling came to their classification of IE languages. According them:
We can clearly see here first split Hittite and rest of IE, second split Tocharian languages and rest of IE, third split Greek and Armenian and rest of IE etc. We can see split Albanian and Indic and Iranian languages. We can see split Balto Slavic and Western Languages (Celtic, Germanic, Romance). Albanian even today has some similarities with North Iranian languages, (even Pashtun and eastern languages), there are languages Eastern Anatolia and Caucasus, even Caspian. If we speculate it is possible that once existed Proto Indic Iranic Albanian language. It can be possible if R1b ht35 carries speakers of Proto Albanian were more eastern comparing to R1b ht35 carriers, speakers of Proto Armenian.
What is dispute here?
1. There is a scientific basis: Anatolian hypothesis
I would like that Albanians or someone support Kurgan or some third hypothesis.
2. There are scientific papers: for model it is Grey, Atkinson, and they published this in more papers.
Of course there are different models. But everyone use one of them.
Why I say scientists from New Zealand. Because all what I give any "Slavic" source Polish, Bulgarian, etc. they claim Slavic propaganda. I have problem because serious scientists from more countries can't use, and their papers. But to be honest, if every scientist from Poland, Bulgaria, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Ukraine etc. is propagandist. I can argue that they are serious scientists with serious papers, but "for peace in home" I will not use them, at least not quote.
Plus there are more sources, papers scientists about link Albanian with Armenian, etc.
3. There is genetic evidence. We know Armenian haplogroups and populations in Caucasus and Eastern Anatolia. We have now and Armenian samples from BA, and they confirm R1b ht35 Armenian haplotype.
What I speculate? For example movements. Who knows? There is hypothesis about movement of Armenians from Balkans to Anatolia, but Armenian scientists strictly deny it. Therefore is important to read paper about it which will be published this year.
In any case Albanian speakers came to the Balkan.
...
I never defended someone to give his or her views. Everyone can say what he or she thinks, of course you're right some good practice should exists.
And I make mistakes. I like when someone notices it. When it is case I say that it is mistake. Who writes makes mistakes. One Englishman once told me that if I want to not make errors I must think in English. But I can't think in English.
Pax Augusta
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I think so.
Ike
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LOL, this is gennig ridiculous. And I thought that there were some serious people here. Damn...
Yetos
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@Angela
I would expand my question,
Minoan culture is full of J2a,
we determing it as a Greco-Anatolian gene
we connect expand of J2a with Greek-colonization
but is it Greek? or is it Pelasgian?
so if I say that J2a is Greek means IE means that spoke IE at 3500 BC
and homeland of IE is somewhere in West asia from minor Asia to middle East
but if I say Pelasgian, means not IE
so in such case
if I say E-V13 is Albanian marker then
E-V13 spoke IE before 3500 BC and is IE Hg
cause Albanian lang is IE so Albanians came from either Yamnaa, either Zagros mountains and souroundings,
so how come we can connect pre IE hg with IE Hg?
it is like we admit Otzi spoke IE cause he lived in Swiss and G2a3b as mark of IE entered before Yamnaa in Alps,
in such case all Kurgan hypothesis connection with IE is wrong
I would expand my question,
Minoan culture is full of J2a,
we determing it as a Greco-Anatolian gene
we connect expand of J2a with Greek-colonization
but is it Greek? or is it Pelasgian?
so if I say that J2a is Greek means IE means that spoke IE at 3500 BC
and homeland of IE is somewhere in West asia from minor Asia to middle East
but if I say Pelasgian, means not IE
so in such case
if I say E-V13 is Albanian marker then
E-V13 spoke IE before 3500 BC and is IE Hg
cause Albanian lang is IE so Albanians came from either Yamnaa, either Zagros mountains and souroundings,
so how come we can connect pre IE hg with IE Hg?
it is like we admit Otzi spoke IE cause he lived in Swiss and G2a3b as mark of IE entered before Yamnaa in Alps,
in such case all Kurgan hypothesis connection with IE is wrong
Anatolian hypothesis is much more natural and better aligned with genetics, linguistics, history etc. Some things will be purified of course with more evidence and knowledge. Proto Albanian formed in Eastern Anatolia, Caucasus or Northern Iran. Of course, in Anatolian hypothesis there is much more interesting things but it is not for this thread.
Albanians, who claim that they are in continuity of 7,000 years in the Balkans because they think E-V13 in the Balkan has continuity 7,000 years, are in greatly mistaken. It is fiction.
Because E-V13 had big bottleneck. We can see TMRCA for clades and subclades of E-V13 is from 4,400 years ago to 1,500 years ago.
http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/
But and 4,400 ypb is optimistic. It is probably 3,500 ypb.
Yetos, you know what is funny. Albanians here in forum say that they have data, but no one E-V13 carrier in Europe and beyond has TMCRA 7,000 years.
Here, let the Albanians turned the whole world and find someone E-V13 European whose ancestors 7,000 years old.
Common ancestor today's E-V13 lived 3,500 ypb (in the best case 4,400 ypb but it is optimistic).
And it is very important method which someone uses. In many scientific studies unfortunately authors make big mistakes. For example using Zhivotorovski's method numbers of year of common ancestor can be 3 or 4 time bigger! I told one Albanian man for that and he saw that I'm right.
Dienekes 2008 calculated years for some E-V13 population in the Balkans. You can hear: propaganda, big mistake, he didn't take this or that, his calculation is obsolete, he gave fast conclusions etc. However, and today, and with all fresh data, including new samples, results will not be drasticallty different. Reason, there are no E-V13 older than 3,500 (real) or 4,400 (optimistic) ypb.
If someone is to go by the Anatolian hypothesis, then all IE languages have origin somewhere in Anatolia.
The Kurgan hypothesis has shown that is the more accepted one now, even ancient dna supports this, but lets assume that the Anatolian hypothesis is the correct one (the one you're blabbering about). It looks like you havent done your research on this either, but let me school you again.
This hypothesis states that languages spread with farming starting 9000 ybp from Anatolia. So who were these farmers who stayed in the Balkans? We know it is E-V13 and J2b because we actually have ancient DNA of these from ~7000 ybp. According to the Anatolian hypothesis, Albanian is the first language to emerge in the southern Balkans around 5000 ybp, even before Greek look closely at this model of this hypothesis and you will see for yourself:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KdQwalCPNAs
As for E-V13 goes I was the one who gave you that link and somehow your mind cannot comprehend how those TMRCAs are calculated. I already explained this to you here:
Sile, I gave same data, you can see, TMRCA is 4,400 ypb. I think it is some optimistic, probably more real is 3,500 ypb. But it doesn't matter, if more or less. Lets cemented TMRCA 4,400 ybp.
And you can see all clades and subclades E-V13 are between TMRCA 4,400-1,500 ybp.
There are no older. Why. Because E-V13 had big bottleneck. Today's E-V13 carriers in Europe are young. And you can see in all databases in the world.
It is not propaganda: Original language or languages E-V13 carriers are Afro Asiatic.
Why hard facts someone wants call propaganda, it is not correct, and it is wrong.
If Albanians would speak language of E-V13 carriers their language would be Afro Asiatic.
But we know Albanian language is IE, it can has some Afro Asiatic words of E-V13 carriers but it is minority.
...
Who wants to read about haplogroup E and Afro Asiatic languages, here is for example, one newer paper in Nature:
Y-chromosome E haplogroups: their distribution and implication to the origin of Afro-Asiatic languages and pastoralism
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v22/n12/full/ejhg201441a.html
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