Y-DNA of Arbereshe vs Albanians vs Southern Italians

[Trojet]

So we should trust it just because it says Encyclopedia Britannica?! This is just a same old British political crap...
For the 5th time - restrain yourself from various interpretations but link us the facts. Are you aware of that concept?

I'm done with you guys on this thread here. Again no offense, but you guys are proving true to this:

You South Slavs seem to have unpenetratable thick skulls, that need to be smacked few times before you can concentrate and pay attention on a subject and what is presented in front of you

 

[Angela]

This thread has been derailed for long enough. The topic is the comparison of the yDna of Albanians,Arbereshe and southern Italians.

Any further posts that are off topic will be removed.

 

[Sile]

Look who joined the recycling of the same old anti Albanian propaganda over and over, VETTOR. Oops my bad you are known as Sile on this forum.

The real facts are in front of your eyes, on the quotation and the link on the bottom where you quoted me. All that comes from BRITTANICA ENCYCLOPEDIA, not from me. Obviously, you didn't even bother to read.

BTW, here is you VETTOR, or as you are known here SILE recycling the same propaganda on a different forum where I schooled you (BTW, I have the same user name there TROJET). Will not waste my time to school you here too:


And the link:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3821-Albanian-DNA-Project/page2

LOL, do not concern yourself about my ID, I have a different one for every forum. Ask me and I will tell you which I am.

But it amazes me you had to be taught by me on what the x meant on the Albanian marker tests ..............here are some from table 3 ( below)

E-V13(xV12,V22)

I-M253(xM227,L22)

J-M12

R-M269(xL51)

E-V13(xV12,V22)

E-M123

I-M223

R-M269(xL51)

R-L51(xP311)

K-M9(xM45)

E-V13(xV12,V22)

F-M89

I-P215(xM26,M223)

R-L51(xP311)

I-P215(xM26,M223)

I-P215(xM26,M223)

R-L2

I-P215(xM26,M223) You fail to answer historical notes and you do not even know what the X represents..........do you even know what the * means?

 

[Sile]

@angela......maybe a thread is required to educate people on what each symbol represents in genetic markers because clearly, many think certain symbols mean the same for any text regardless if its genetics or not

 

[Trojet]

LOL, do not concern yourself about my ID, I have a different one for every forum. Ask me and I will tell you which I am.

But it amazes me you had to be taught by me on what the x meant on the Albanian marker tests ..............here are some from table 3 ( below)

E-V13(xV12,V22)

I-M253(xM227,L22)

J-M12

R-M269(xL51)

E-V13(xV12,V22)

E-M123

I-M223

R-M269(xL51)

R-L51(xP311)

K-M9(xM45)

E-V13(xV12,V22)

F-M89

I-P215(xM26,M223)

R-L51(xP311)

I-P215(xM26,M223)

I-P215(xM26,M223)

R-L2

I-P215(xM26,M223) You fail to answer historical notes and you do not even know what the X represents..........do you even know what the * means?

OMG...Someone else asked that question and I just clicked on your post "thanks" and thanked you for your answer so that I didn't have to answer it to the user who asked about the "x" in front of a SNP haplogroup, which obviously means someone tested negative for that SNP. Here is that question and obviously it's not me asking it. Do you need glasses or are you making a fool out of yourself lol:

Could you clarify for a non-technical person like me? I understand about the R-M17 since M-458 is an eventual subgroup. But are you saying that the classification I-P215 (xM26,M223) is wrong, and should be I-P215 (I-CTS10228)? Does "x" mean "either/or"?

And the link:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthr...hegs-Tosks)-Y-chromosome-with-Arbereshe/page2

FYI, I was the one who extracted that data from the paper and wrote the "x" too, along with everything else. I also created that thread there. I posted the same data here too. They are on page one.

The * after a haplogroup means that the tester is not positive for any known downstream SNPs of that haplogroup, and that he is forming an undiscovered SNP.

 

[Yetos]

If someone is to go by the Anatolian hypothesis, then all IE languages have origin somewhere in Anatolia.

The Kurgan hypothesis has shown that is the more accepted one now, even ancient dna supports this, but lets assume that the Anatolian hypothesis is the correct one (the one you're blabbering about). It looks like you havent done your research on this either, but let me school you again.

This hypothesis states that languages spread with farming starting 9000 ybp from Anatolia. So who were these farmers who stayed in the Balkans? We know it is E-V13 and J2b because we actually have ancient DNA of these from ~7000 ybp. According to the Anatolian hypothesis, Albanian is the first language to emerge in the southern Balkans around 5000 ybp, even before Greek look closely at this model of this hypothesis and you will see for yourself:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KdQwalCPNAs

As for E-V13 goes I was the one who gave you that link and somehow your mind cannot comprehend how those TMRCAs are calculated. I already explained this to you here:


BTW, I will not respond to you or anyone else if you keep bringing the same nonsense (cherry picking things to support your propaganda)...

I suggest you see this video here
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...On-Historical-Linguistics?p=458592#post458592

 

[Yetos]

Yetos, I'm going to give this one more try with you. A lot of the details will be missing, but this is just very broad parameters.

Y Dna doesn't have a nationality attached to it, nor a language, or, let's say, those associations can change with time. E-V13 is NOT an Albanian marker. It is a marker for a group of farmers who, we now know, were present in the Balkans at the LATEST 7,000 years ago. (If Maciamo is right, its father E-M78 might have been in Greece or the Balkans since the Mesolithic thousands of years earlier.)

It's irrelevant what language they spoke.

Everyone in the Balkans today, no matter whether they are Albanian or Serbian or Greek or Bulgarian is partly descended from those people. Now, there were other yDna lineages present before them, and others after them, like R1b and R1a, for example. All these people mixed, but some lineages are higher in certain groups than in others, maybe just because of founder effect.

So, no one group OWNS E-V13. It was a farmer haplogroup in Greece and the Balkans. That's it. Serbians who carry E-V13, and Greeks who carry E-V13, and anyone else in the Balkans who carries E-13 can claim descent from those people. In fact, even Greeks and Serbs and others who don't carry E-V13 are descended from them. Let's take as an example a Greek who carries yDna J2a. What was his mother's father's y line? Could it have been E-V13? What about all the y lines on that whole side of his family. Or, what about the y line of the father's mother's father? Do you see? Their y chromosome didn't get passed on, but their autosomal dna did get passed on to some degree.

Now, as to TMRCA. Let's imagine that a man lives in the Balkans 5000 BC or 7,000 years ago. Let's assume he carried "original" E-V13. He had, to just pick a number, 8 sons. In the first generation, they all had sons. In the next generation, one son's line "daughtered out". Then more line's "daughtered out" just by chance in succeeding generations. The y lines that survived had accumulated some additional mutations. What we wind up with is a situation where all the E-V13 that's in the Balkans today descends from the one line that survived to 4400 years ago. That line is still descended from the 7,000 year old line. New people didn't suddenly parachute in. The line remaining is still descended from the prior group.

Mathbionerd usually explains things pretty clearly. Give his site a try...
http://mathbionerd.blogspot.com/2013/08/y-and-mtdna-are-not-adam-and-eve-part-2.html

thank you
I hope the ones who read it, also understand it

 

[DuPidh]

Very interesting results for haplogroups. This is what I got as far as the percentage of the most frequent haplogroups, all samples are on table S3:

Gheg Albanians:
E-V13: 38%
J2b: 25%
R1b-L51 xP311: 12%
R1b-M269 xL51: 4.2%
I2a-xM26,M223: 3.3%
R1a-M17: 2.5%
I1-M253: 3.3%

Tosk Albanians:
E-V13: 29%
J2b: 12%
R1b-L51 xP311: 8%
R1b-M269 xL51: 6%
I2a-xM26,M223: 11.5%
I2a-M223: 5%
R1a-M17: 6%
I1-M253: 3.8%

Arbereshe Albanians (Southern Italy):
E-V13: 15%
J2b: 3%
R1b-L51 xP311: NONE
R1b-M269 xL51: 8%
I2a-xM26, M223: 10%
I2a-M223: 10%
R1a-M17: 10%
E1b-xV13: 13%
I1-M253: 5.3%

Ola Amigos!
Interesting topic! My grandfather was albo from Atica, Greece! He told me that Albaneses before migrating to Italy were for 300 years in Greece. They were invited by local landlords to protect their possessions from the invaders.
Turkish invasion was the reason for their migration. So there was not a direct migration from Tosk lands to South Italy. As such should be kept in mind that there was some mixture in Greece before they also got some other mixture in Italy with local populations. So Any discrepancy between Tosk Y dna and Arbereshe could be result of population mixtures.
Tosk Albanians were invaded by Bulgarian Empire for about 100 years. Majority of southern toponims in South Albania are Slavic. That means many Slavic settlements in south were Albanised. Also for 200 years the Goths settled there. Its documented and the archaeology proves it. That's why Tosk y-dna is somehow different from Gheg. So the real Iliric population are the Ghegs.

 

[Trojet]

Hi. Nice username btw lol... For the most part I agree with what you said, except this:

So the real Iliric population are the Ghegs.

Although the Tosk Albanian population is more mixed than Ghegs, it doesn't mean that they are are not Illyrian at the core. The Gheg Albanians are probably the least mixed population in the Balkans, so it is a bit of a unique situation due to mostly the geography of Northern Albania, and other factors.

 

[DuPidh]

Hi. Nice username btw lol... For the most part I agree with what you said, except this:

Although the Tosk Albanian population is more mixed than Ghegs, it doesn't mean that they are are not Illyrian at the core. The Gheg Albanians are probably the least mixed population in the Balkans, so it is a bit of a unique situation due to mostly the geography of Northern Albania, and other factors.

I saw that Y dna of Arbereshe has similarities with Greek Y Dna, but Mtdna of Arbershe is close with that of Sicilian people. Does this proves what Maciamo has said in one of his posts that The very first E person in Europe may have landed in Sicily and from there spread to Europe?
Other words, The first E person out of Africa landed in Sicily and over there mated with a Sicilian women of Neolithic?

 

[Trojet]

I saw that Y dna of Arbereshe has similarities with Greek Y Dna, but Mtdna of Arbershe is close with that of Sicilian people. Does this proves what Maciamo has said in one of his posts that The very first E person in Europe may have landed in Sicily and from there spread to Europe?
Other words, The first E person out of Africa landed in Sicily and over there mated with a Sicilian women of Neolithic?

Any hypothesis of E-V13 or its ancestral clade entrance into Europe is just that, a hypothesis at this point. Only ancient DNA will prove a hypothesis which we lack from southern Italy, or southern Balkans.

However, we know that E-V13 has been found so far in two different Neolithic cultures (Spain and Hungary), so by 7000 years ago, it was in both of these areas. There is two most plausible hypothesis about its entrance into Europe:
1. Directly from north Africa to southern Italy, or even southern Balkans.
2. From north Africa, to the Levant, to Anatolia, and then to southern Balkans.

 

[Angela]

I saw that Y dna of Arbereshe has similarities with Greek Y Dna, but Mtdna of Arbershe is close with that of Sicilian people. Does this proves what Maciamo has said in one of his posts that The very first E person in Europe may have landed in Sicily and from there spread to Europe?
Other words, The first E person out of Africa landed in Sicily and over there mated with a Sicilian women of Neolithic?

This is what a comparison of Arbereshe and "host" uniparental markers shows:

"The estimated proportions of genetic admixture confirm the tight relationship of Calabrian Arbereshe with modern Albanian populations, in accordance with linguistic hypotheses. On the other hand, population stratification and/or an increased permeability of linguistic and geographic barriers may be hypothesized for Sicilian groups, to account for their partial similarity with Greek populations and their higher levels of local admixture. "

Also:
"The Arbereshe of Sicily survive today in only three municipalities of the province of Palermo (9057 inhabitants, 10,2%).^{4, 6} They are characterized by lower geographic isolation and smaller population size, as well as by higher levels of linguistic erosion. Historical evidence also suggests a more intricate formative process, which involved intermediate steps in the Balkans and Italy, as well as subsequent repeopling events from Greece.¹⁰ Our first investigation of the uniparental genetic structure of Sicilian Arbereshe confirmed stronger paternal links with Greek populations and higher similarities with Sicilians from the maternal perspective.^3"

Again:
"By comprehensively considering STR- and SNP-based results under a stationary model, the scenario that best approximates empirical data in the case of ARB_CAL is a migration from Toskeria to Calabria by 200–900 migrants and a local contribution to the genetic pool of the new settlements comprised between 5 and 20% (Table 1, Figure 4)"

As to the Arbereshe in Sicily,
"In fact, 120 (or fewer) migrants from a Tosk or a Tosk/Greek source population (Figure 4) and a local contribution >50% (Table 1) were estimated."

This isn't the whole of the story, however. This paper examines the uniparental markers of those migrants from the Balkans or Greece who remained in their ancestral communities, many of them in isolated mountains and plateaus. It doesn't attempt to measure the amount of gene flow "out" from members of these communities who in generations past moved from these areas and intermarried with locals in areas outside the core zones.

Just anecdotally, I know quite a few Italian Americans from the south of Italy who claim an Arbereshe ancestor or two.

At any rate, this all partly explains, in my opinion, this conclusion from Ralph and Coop IBD analysis of European populations:
"There is relatively little common ancestry shared between the Italian peninsula and other locations, and what there is seems to derive mostly from longer ago than 2,500 ya. An exception is that Italy and the neighboring Balkan populations share small but significant numbers of common ancestors in the last 1,500 years, as seen in Figures S16 and S17S17. "

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

 

[Hauteville]

That study says that there are some affinities in the paternal and maternal side but Y-DNA of Arbereshe show some influences from the local populations as well not just on the mtDNA.

 

[Hauteville]

Any hypothesis of E-V13 or its ancestral clade entrance into Europe is just that, a hypothesis at this point. Only ancient DNA will prove a hypothesis which we lack from southern Italy, or southern Balkans.



However, we know that E-V13 has been found so far in two different Neolithic cultures (Spain and Hungary), so by 7000 years ago, it was in both of these areas. There is two most plausible hypothesis about its entrance into Europe:

1. Directly from north Africa to southern Italy, or even southern Balkans.

2. From north Africa, to the Levant, to Anatolia, and then to southern Balkans.

Imo it's more easy the hypotesis of the first E1b1b carriers move to Europe from Gibraltar but anyway you must look at the map of the Mediterranean basin in in the Wurm period.

 

[Hauteville]

I saw that Y dna of Arbereshe has similarities with Greek Y Dna, but Mtdna of Arbershe is close with that of Sicilian people. Does this proves what Maciamo has said in one of his posts that The very first E person in Europe may have landed in Sicily and from there spread to Europe?
Other words, The first E person out of Africa landed in Sicily and over there mated with a Sicilian women of Neolithic?

The study analizes only the Arbereshe cities not the whole populations though they noticed more hererogenity in the Sicilian part also in the paternal side than the Calabrian-ones.
Calabrian Arbereshe live more isolated in the mountains while some other cities in Sicily are nowadays Italianized like Biancavilla or Sant'Angelo Muxaro.

 

[Garrick]

So? It's irrelevant. I'm afraid you're very confused as to what TMRCA means. See post #64.

Now, as to TMRCA. Let's imagine that a man lives in the Balkans 5000 BC or 7,000 years ago. Let's assume he carried "original" E-V13. He had, to just pick a number, 8 sons. In the first generation, they all had sons. In the next generation, one son's line "daughtered out". Then more line's "daughtered out" just by chance in succeeding generations. The y lines that survived had accumulated some additional mutations. What we wind up with is a situation where all the E-V13 that's in the Balkans today descends from the one line that survived to 4400 years ago. That line is still descended from the 7,000 year old line. New people didn't suddenly parachute in. The line remaining is still descended from the prior group.

Mathbionerd usually explains things pretty clearly. Give his site a try...
http://mathbionerd.blogspot.com/2013/08/y-and-mtdna-are-not-adam-and-eve-part-2.html

On the contrary, I am very satisfied with your response.

I wrote very similar as you, but some members thought it is propaganda.

Because it is same as for all other haplogroups.

Some members here in forum say that TMRCA for I2a Din is 2,500 ybp, for example (there are variations, i.e. many similar posts of different members):

The current Balkan I2a is called "Dinaric" and the TMRCA is no older than 2500 years.

I will quote often your post #64, and of course, reputation.

 

[Finalise]

Some comments here are completely ridiculous. EV-13 speaking an Afro-Asiatic language? Did Chadic and Nigerian tribes speak the same language as Siberian hunter gatherers because they were both R1b? The original tribes/carriers of these haplogroups are long gone since the Paleolithic, we have no clue of their language or culture, and now all we have is remnants of their Y-Dna that survived one way or another through bottlenecks and founder effects. A good example are I2a samples, which even as early as the Neolithic, had completely different autosomal components behind them.

 

[Trojet]

Because it is same as for all other haplogroups.

Some members here in forum say that TMRCA for I2a Din is 2,500 ybp

It is not the same as the other haplogroups because of this, here is my full quote since you left out an important part of it:

The current Balkan I2a is called "Dinaric" and the TMRCA is no older than 2500 years. And it is thought to have originated outside the Balkans

E-V13 actually diversified in the Balkans 4400 ybp. All of I2a that is found today at very high frequencies in Slavic speaking countries is thought to have originated outside the Balkans (north) and falls into I2a-CTS10228 "dinaric" or as yfull calls it I-Y3111 it has TMRCA of only 2300 ybp:

http://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3111/

Most of it made it to the Balkans with the Slavic migrations.

 

[Angela]

On the contrary, I am very satisfied with your response.

I wrote very similar as you, but some members thought it is propaganda.

Because it is same as for all other haplogroups.

Some members here in forum say that TMRCA for I2a Din is 2,500 ybp, for example (there are variations, i.e. many similar posts of different members):



I will quote often your post #64, and of course, reputation.

I'm glad to see you've changed your position, and we won't have to read over and over again that a TMRCA of 4400 ybp for the largest cluster of E-V13 in the Balkans today means these carriers are not descended from the mid to late Neolithic bearers of E-V13. Perhaps other posters will likewise be convinced by this and by the fact that we have actual y Dna "E" from the Neolithic Balkans and will spare us claims that somehow the Albanians are descendents of people dumped in the Balkans 1000 years ago.

However, I'm afraid there is still a problem. The issue with "Dinaric" I2a for someone who wants to claim that it has been present in the Balkans since the Mesolithic is not its age; it's that to my knowledge we have yet to find any evidence that the branch of I2a that led to "Dinaric" I2a was ever in the Balkans. Even if it was, it wouldn't mean that most of it didn't arrive with the Slavic migrations. However, any protracted discussion of this issue belongs in another thread.

 

[Garrick]

I'm glad to see you've changed your position, and we won't have to read over and over again that a TMRCA of 4400 ybp for the largest cluster of E-V13 in the Balkans today means these carriers are not descended from the mid to late Neolithic bearers of E-V13. Perhaps other posters will likewise be convinced by this and by the fact that we have actual y Dna "E" from the Neolithic Balkans and will spare us claims that somehow the Albanians are descendents of people dumped in the Balkans 1000 years ago.

However, I'm afraid there is still a problem. The issue with "Dinaric" I2a for someone who wants to claim that it has been present in the Balkans since the Mesolithic is not its age; it's that to my knowledge we have yet to find any evidence that the branch of I2a that led to "Dinaric" I2a was ever in the Balkans. Even if it was, it wouldn't mean that most of it didn't arrive with the Slavic migrations. However, any protracted discussion of this issue belongs in another thread.

I don't change my position. I only explain that have same opinion with you about TMRCA.

Problem is disappearance of old clades. It is case with different haplogroups, not only E-V13. I would not here about causes of disapperance of old clades.

New clades could be different and with different locations.

There is short picture about Balkans.

Balkans

I phase, about 20000-25000 ypb Haplogroup I (I1, I2), (hunter gatherers)

II phase, about 9000 ypb Haplogroups I2 (transition to farmers), arrival of G2 (early farmers); there was found F* too, maybe it can be any specific haplogroup G, I etc.

III phase, about 7000 ypb I2, G2, arrival of E-V13, J2, C (farmers)

Bottleneck, about 4,400-3,500 ypb, disappearance of old clades.

Consequences:

G2, C: almost extinct
I2, E-V13, J2: younger clades exist.

And it is whole short story about arrival carriers of different haplogroups in the Balkans.

Story about nations is different because nations are linked with language and culture. For Albanians it is clear that E-V13 and J2 are not speakers of Proto Albanian. Speakers of Proto Albanian didn't live in the Balkans. It is not tabu, and we can speak about it, and it is linked with the thread.