Is R1b-L151 from Neolithic West Europe?

Fire Haired14

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Y-DNA haplogroup
R1b DF27*
mtDNA haplogroup
U5b2a2b1
A paper was published yesterday with genomes of people who lived in El Portalón cave in the Atapuerca Spain. between 3500 and 1500 BC(Ancient genomes link early farmers from Atapuerca in Spain to modern-day Basques). Their DNA data is publicly available and Geneticker analysed it, here are the results he got.

I added the results to my spreadsheet: Ancient West Eurasian Y DNA:

3/4(I2a2a, H2) have typical Neolithic lineages which are unheard of in Iberia and rare everywhere in Europe today. But the oldest individual(ATP3) looks like he had R1b1a2, the most popular lineage in West Europe today. Others are going to analyse ATP3's Y DNA to confirm or disprove the results Geneticker got.

Assuming ATP3 had R1b1a2: If R1b1a2a1a-L151 arrived from East Europe around 2800 BC, how do we explain R1b1a2 in Spain in 3500 BC? I guess it could be a lone R1b1a2 lineage that made it to Iberia and died out.

It could also be ancestral to modern R1b1a2a1a-L151 and our age estimates for it are just way off. Maybe R1b1a2a-L23 originated somewhere in East Europe or West Asia, and one branch made it's way to Europe remained a very rare lineage for several millennial and by luck and founder effects became popular.

In my opinion either ATP3 didn't have R1b1a2 or his R1b1a2-lineage died out. An origin in East Europe for R1b1a2a1a-L151 still makes the most sense to me.
 
Been saying for a while that R1b follows the Danube and there is a massive founder effect only seen in farming communities. Russia and West/Central Asia are part of a big continuum which shared many features including R1b, light skin, light hair, etc...
 
Were they farmers or still hunter gatherers in this cave? What is the paper saying about their material culture?
By David Anthony there was first encroachment of Steppe people, who rode horses, into Balkans around 4,000 BC. During one of Neolithic population collapses. Perhaps some of the Steppe riders got really deep down there to Spain, and settled around some nice caves?
 
Quickly sketched this map a few months ago
bQ3grgc.png
 
Been saying for a while that R1b follows the Danube and there is a massive founder effect only seen in farming communities. Russia and West/Central Asia are part of a big continuum which shared many features including R1b, light skin, light hair, etc...

We have other Y DNA data from Hungary, France, Germany, Sweden, and Spain from the same time period as the Spanish R1b1a2. All of it is I2a, G2a, E1b-M78, and C, except for two R1s. The R1b1a2 from Spain and a R1(xR1a1a, R1b1a) from Germany. Needless to say R1b1a2 did not expand yet and become dominate like today yet. The first time we see dominance of R1b is with Bell beaker in Germany and Czech Republic. Whether or not R1b was dominating Iberia and France at the same time is hard to say.

Between 3500 BC and 2200 BC, R1b-L151 would have had to of expanded out of a location from somewhere in West Europe. That's possible.
 
Ah just when you think everything has settled, the pendulum swings back to western Europe.. -if this individual indeed is R1b.
 
Ah just when you think everything has settled, the pendulum swings back to western Europe.. -if this individual indeed is R1b.

He's almost certainly R1b and R1b1a2. It doesn't disprove a steppe origin of Western R1b at all though. I2a, G2a, H, T, E1b, etc. still dominated West Europe in 3500-3000 BC. R1b had not expanded yet. The R1b1a2 from Spain in 3500 BC could be a lone wolf who died out. We see I2a2a1a in Yamnaya around the same time, and that's a western lineage. So, we also see R1b1a2 in Spain. It could very well be a lineage that died out and its cousin in the east then expanded and became popular.
 
He's almost certainly R1b and R1b1a2. It doesn't disprove a steppe origin of Western R1b at all though. I2a, G2a, H, T, E1b, etc. still dominated West Europe in 3500-3000 BC. R1b had not expanded yet. The R1b1a2 from Spain in 3500 BC could be a lone wolf who died out. We see I2a2a1a in Yamnaya around the same time, and that's a western lineage. So, we also see R1b1a2 in Spain. It could very well be a lineage that died out and its cousin in the east then expanded and became popular.

Ok then. R1b-M269 might have had some individuals being incorporated in the spread of the Neolithic. But wouldn't that mean this guy was of an early branch?
He could have been from the introduction of the Chalcolithic in Southern Spain, or a "traveller/merchant" from over sea (is that far-fetched? trade existed and small ships too),
but it is a remote area.
 

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