J1 Sarmatians in Beslan

[Tomenable]

Makes sense, Alans & Scythians (R1a-Z94/Z95) came from BMAC through Central Asia. Before they migrated into Europe they were already heavily mixed with Turkic tribes in the Steppes / Central Asia. Scythians of the Steppes were not really Iranid anymore but had also Russian / Uralic (Europoid) and Turkic (Mongoloid) DNA in them.

Where would they mix with Mongoloid DNA, if there was no Mongoloid DNA to the west of the Altai Mountains at that time ???

Figure A below shows frequency (shades of green) of Mongoloid mtDNA in ancient DNA samples from times before the Iron Age:

Until the end of the Bronze Age there was no Mongoloid ancestry in populations living in what is now Kazakhstan:

Check these sources concerning Caucasoid-Mongoloid mixing in Western Mongolia, Western China and Kazakhstan:

"Tracing the Origin of the East-West Population Admixture in the Altai Region":

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0048904

"Strong genetic admixture in the Altai at the Middle Bronze Age revealed by uniparental and ancestry informative markers":

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1872497314001161

"Physical Anthropology of Kazakh People and Their Genesis":

http://www.scientificfund.kz/index....thropology-of-kazakh-people-and-their-genesis

"Population of Kazakhstan from Bronze Epoch to Present (Paleoanthropological research)":

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/Ismagulov/IsmagulovAnthropologyConclusionEn.htm

"Evidence that a West-East admixed population lived in the Tarim Basin as early as the early Bronze Age":

http://openi.nlm.nih.gov/detailedresult.php?img=2838831_1741-7007-8-15-1&req=4

"In the heartland of Eurasia: the multilocus genetic landscape of Central Asian populations":

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20823912

 

[Alan]

G2a was spreading with Early European Farmers, not with Indo-Europeans.

R1a, R1b spred with ANE mixed groups (teal farmers, EHG Hunters and Gatherers). J2 spred with mid-late Neolithic (teal likely ) farmers also. Non of the modern Haplogroups spred with Indo Europeans exclusively, to begin with.

Today G2a is most common among Georgians, who are not Indo-European.

Today R1a is as much common among the Kazakhs as among Europeans. G2a among Georgians looks more like a bottleneck effect. Shoudln't we know by now that modern distribution =/= ancient distribution?

J2a does not look like being exclusively Indo-European either, it is widespread among many Non-Indo-European speaking populations as well.

So do other Haplogroups see above^

Some branches of R1b look Indo-European indeed, but for example R1b-V88 is found among Chadic-speakers and R1b-M478 among Turkic-speakers.

True, R1b-V88 looks Levantine , while R1b-M478 is most likely a remnant of Iranic and Afanasevo culture

 

[Fluffy]

He is known to be psycologically instable. Just ignore. Who said this?

 

[Goga]

Where would they mix with Mongoloid DNA, if there was no Mongoloid DNA to the west of the Altai Mountains at that time ???

This maps are pure speculation. How can you draw an genetic map before the Iron Age?

They found some 'East Eurasian' / Mongloid haplogroups among the Scythians, like mtDNA F2a and mtDNA D.

 

[Tomenable]

while R1b-M478 is most likely a remnant of Iranic and Afanasevo culture

R1b-M478 is not found in any meaningful frequencies among Iranic-speaking populations today - only among Turkic-speakers.

Afanasievo samples were shown to be autosomally very similar to Sintashta samples, and Sintashta was R1a (two individuals).

Xiaohe mummies are also believed to be descended from Afanasievo culture by many researchers, and they were also R1a.

How can you draw an genetic map before the Iron Age?

Based on mtDNA samples from ancient DNA from the Bronze Age and from the Copper Age (as well as older samples).

They found some 'East Eurasian' / Mongloid haplogorups among the Scythians

Among which Scythians and from which periods? Siberian Scythians in the Mongolian Altai indeed had such haplogroups.

But Scythians living to the west of the Altai Mountains did not have such haplogroups before the Iron Age.

 

[Tomenable]

Non of the modern Haplogroups spred with Indo Europeans exclusively, to begin with.

Of course, that's I wrote that we need to look at subclades, not at entire haplogroups.

R1a-M417 spread with Indo-Europeans exclusively. But older subclades of R1a, certainly not.

True, R1b-V88 looks Levantine

Today R1b-V88 is most common in Sub-Saharan Africans who speak Chadic languages.

And it was also found in one Neolithic farmer from Spain (that famous sample from Els Trocs cave).

A 17th century Black African slave buried on the Caribbean island of Saint Martin was also R1b-V88:

"Genome-wide ancestry of 17th-century enslaved Africans from the Caribbean":

http://www.pnas.org/content/112/12/3669.full.pdf

Individual STM2 - most likely ethnic Hausa (map) was R1b-V88 and L3b1a (mtDNA):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hausa_people

Three 17th century Africans - two women and one man - buried on the island of Saint Martin, their time of death was dated to between 1660 and 1688. Despite the tropical climate it was possible to extract DNA from those bones and compare it with modern African ethnic groups.

The man (STM2) was - as written above - R1b-V88 and L3b1a, while two women (STM1 and STM3) were L3d1b2 and L2a1f.

 

[Goga]

Among which Scythians and from which periods? Siberian Scythians in the Mongolian Altai indeed had such haplogroups.

But Scythians living to the west of the Altai Mountains did not have such haplogroups before the Iron Age.

I was talking about Scythians in Central Asia. And they have Mongoloid ancestry.

Like I said Iranid Saka / Scythians came from BMAC. Firstly they migrated into Central Asia and mixed with the Mongoloid folks (mtDNA F2a & D), later they went to the west and mixed with the Europoid/Uralic folks. At the end of their journey they lost most of their Iranid DNA. Only Iranid R1a-Z93 and other Iranid Y-DNA haplogroups remained in them.

 

[Tomenable]

Can you give links to ancient DNA studies about Scythians from Central Asia in question ???

BTW, the Altai Mountains are actually located in Central Asia as well - in eastern part of Central Asia.

In post #39 I provided links to studies which say when and where did Scythians acquire Mongoloid ancestry.

Modern populations of Central Asia are mixed, but Turkic-speakers tend to have more of East Asian admixture.

Circles show linguistic affinity (violet - IE; yellow - Turkic), red in pie graphs show % of Mongoloid ancestry:

Like I said Iranid Saka / Scythians came from BMAC.

Mainstream theory says that Indo-Iranians came to BMAC from the north, from the steppe - see this book:

"The Origin of the Indo-Iranians":

https://ia800503.us.archive.org/30/items/TheOriginOfTheIndo-iranians/TheOriginOfTheIndo-iranian.pdf

It can take some time to load.

 

[Tomenable]

When I'm talking about Iranid race I do mean folks who speak Iranic as their native language.

As you noticed, modern Iranic-speakers who live in Central Asia have some Mongoloid / Turkic admixture.

But those who live in the Middle East - such as Kurds - are also not "pure", they just have different admixtures.

Anatolian Iranic-speakers have some Negroid (Sub-Saharan) admixture resulting from Muslim slave trade:

http://s10.postimg.org/xmefnmvmx/Effects_of_Roman_and_Arab_Slave_Trade.png

Source: http://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdfExtended/S0960-9822(15)00949-5

================================================== ==

So there is no "pure Iranid race" anymore.

Iranic-speakers who live in Central Asia mixed with Mongoloids, those in the Middle East - with Negroids.

Modern Kurds have a Sub-Saharan admixture (as do all of modern Southern Europeans, by the way).

About Muslim trade of Sub-Saharan African slaves:

 

[Goga]

Can you give links to ancient DNA studies about Scythians from Central Asia in question ???

BTW, the Altai Mountains are actually located in Central Asia as well - in eastern part of Central Asia.

In post #39 I provided links to studies which say when and where did Scythians acquire Mongoloid ancestry.

Mainstream theory says that Indo-Iranians came to BMAC from the north, from the steppe - see this book:

"The Origin of the Indo-Iranians":

https://ia800503.us.archive.org/30/items/TheOriginOfTheIndo-iranians/TheOriginOfTheIndo-iranian.pdf

It can take some time to load.

Clisson, I. et al. 2002. Genetic analysis of human remains from a double inhumation in a frozen kurgan in Kazakhstan (Berel site, early 3rd century BC). International Journal of Legal Medicine. 116:304–308

Ricaut, F. et al. 2004. Genetic Analysis of a Scytho-Siberian Skeleton and Its Implications for Ancient Central Asian Migrations. Human Biology. 76 (1): 109–125

Ricaut,F. et al. 2004. Genetic Analysis and Ethnic Affinities From Two Scytho-Siberian Skeletons. American Journal of Physical Anthropology. 123:351–360


http://www.degruyter.com/view/books/9783110266306/9783110266306.93/9783110266306.93.xml

etc.


It's not a mainstream theory, it's just a Mallory theory. Mallory is wrong, he is a joke. I found out that ALL the Eurocentric folks only using Mallory as their source, lol. His book is their Bible.


BMAC is was an East Iranic civilization, closely related to the Mesopotamia and West Asia. Culture, pottery, architecture was very similar to the Mesopotamia and West Iran.

There was contact with people in Central Asia (Andronovo) but they were not the same. Like I said, later on, East Iranid folks from BMAC migrated into the Steppes.


Scythians were East Iranic folks...






[SUB][/SUB]

 

[Goga]

As you noticed, modern Iranic-speakers who live in Central Asia have some Mongoloid admixture.

But those who live in the Middle East - such as Kurds - are also not "pure", they just have different admixtures.

Anatolian Iranic-speakers have some Negroid (Sub-Saharan) admixture resulting from Muslim slave trade:

http://s10.postimg.org/xmefnmvmx/Effects_of_Roman_and_Arab_Slave_Trade.png

Source: http://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdfExtended/S0960-9822(15)00949-5

====================================================

So there is no "pure Iranid race" anymore.

Iranic-speakers who live in Central Asia mixed with Mongoloids, those in the Middle East - with Negroids.

So what, what has this to do with this topic? I'm sure that most native Europeans have more African DNA than my people. Almost every human, maybe even folks in China have some Negroid DNA in them (from Mongols). I don't think 0,1 ~ 0,5 % of Negroid DNA is much. Of all Iranic speakers, Kurds are still the closest to the ancient Iranid folks.

And I believe its indirectly incorporated into the Iranid DNA from the Semitic folks, like Arabs, Jews and Assyrians than direct from Africans.


And so what that there is some Negroid DNA in Irand folks? It doesn't destroy our genes, more diverse and fresh blood is making human DNA / body stronger.

 

[Alan]

R1b-M478 is not found in any meaningful frequencies among Iranic-speaking populations today - only among Turkic-speakers.

Oh my my, modern distribution=/= ancient distrubition there is absolutely no way that R1b-M478 gave rise among Turkic speakers. Take a look at the distribution of this Haplogroup. It is around East of the Caspian. Simply where once Iranic speakes such as the Dahae lived. Why no R1b closer to the homeland of Turkic speakers in the Altais? Simply because they picked it up from the locals (Iranic and Afanasaevo ) in Central Asia. Simple as that.

 

[Tomenable]

Goga,

Sub-Saharan African admixture:

http://www.balto-slavica.com/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=17672&view=findpost&p=259061

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthr...ope-fair-comment&p=64896&viewfull=1#post64896

 

[Alan]

Of course, that's I wrote that we need to look at subclades, not at entire haplogroups.

R1a-M417 spread with Indo-Europeans exclusively. But older subclades of R1a, certainly not.

No it did not. YOu have no prove for that. If R1a-m417 was among Indo Europeans (Surely it was) than it must have been picked up from someone else. Isn't R1b more likely the PIE Haplogroup from our knowledge now? If so than R1a-m417 must have been picked up from someone else.

Today R1b-V88 is most common in Sub-Saharan Africans who speak Chadic languages.

And it was also found in one Neolithic farmer from Spain (that famous sample from Els Trocs cave).

A 17th century Black African slave buried on the Caribbean island of Saint Martin was also R1b-V88:

"Genome-wide ancestry of 17th-century enslaved Africans from the Caribbean":

For the milion times modern distribution =/=ancient one. I can't believe that anyone with knowledge about genetics would argue that V88 was spred with Chadic speakers, especially not if it turns up in Neolithic Spain with EEF ancestry and looks totally West Eurasian. V88 ancestry is most likely the Levant or nearby region. R1b-V88 among Chadic speakers could be a signal of migration from ancient Egypt.

 

[Tomenable]

Oh my my, modern distribution =/= ancient distrubition there is absolutely no way that R1b-M478 gave rise among Turkic speakers.

There is also no evidence that it was originally Indo-European, it could be neither.

modern distribution =/= ancient distrubition

I know - but don't you think that at least some of modern Iranic groups should have it?

The problem is that it is not common among ANY group of modern Iranic-speakers.

especially not if it turns up in Neolithic Spain with EEF ancestry and looks totally West Eurasian.

People from Neolithic Spain had also considerable amounts of Sub-Saharan ancestry:

See Genetiker's and Maciamo's analyses of El Portalon samples from Late Neolithic Iberia:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...thic-El-Portalon-samples-(Günther-at-al-2015)

Another surprising thing in Genetiker's runs of K=17 admixtures is that Copper and Bronze Age samples from El Portalon cave all have between 2 and 5% of Bushman-and-Pygmy admixture, except the unusual ATP20 which has 0% but 28% of Veddoid, 8% of Negroid and 7.8% of Amerindian) and ATP2 which has a stunning 28% of sub-Saharan African (14% of Bushman-and-Pygmy + 12.47% Western-Negroid + 1.42% Eastern-Negroid) ! The modern Basques are almost 100% European in admixtures, so how do their presumed ancestors show up with such high non-European admixture ?

 

[Goga]

Goga,

Sub-Saharan African admixture:

I see Kurds (North Iraq, NorthEast Syria, West Iran, SouthEast Turkey) have 0,3% on this map so what is the point showing this, bro? I do even see 0,3% in Ukraine and Russia…

 

[Tomenable]

R1b-V88 among Chadic speakers could be a signal of migration from ancient Egypt.

Old Kingdom Egyptian DNA was actually more African that modern Egyptian DNA - see here:

(BTW, it seems that one of Old Kingdom Y-DNA samples was also J-M267, or J1, haplogroup):

"Ancient Egyptians and their DNA": http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2147-Ancient-Egyptians-and-their-DNA

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5383-Saltovo-Mayaki-Results/page5

@beyoku lays out the following Old Kingdom (OK) and Middle Kingdom (MK) Y-SNP and mtDNA results:

Old Kingdom Samples:
A-M13, L3f
A-M13, L0a1
B-M150, L3d
E-M2, L3e5
E-M2, L2a1
E-M123, L5a1
E-M35, R0a
E-M41, L2a1
E-M41, L1b1a
E-M75, M1
E-M78, L4b
J-M267, L3i
R-M173, L2
T-M184, L0a

Middle Kingdom Samples:
A-M13, L3x
E-M75, L2a1
E-M78, L3e5
E-M78, M1a
E-M96, L4a
E-V6, L3
B-M112, L0b

If this data stands, then it looks like the ancient Egyptian gene pool was much more African in both Y-DNA and mtDNA than it is today. Of interest to most who post on this site is the lone R1+ sample and the complete lack of mtDNA HV, H, K and U.

"Egyptian Ancient Dna from the Old and Middle Kingdoms":

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28925-Egyptian-Ancient-Dna-from-the-Old-and-Middle-Kingdoms

A comment by Maciamo:

If that is true that is great news as we finally have plenty of Y-DNA from ancient Egypt. There is a surprisingly high percentage of haplogroup A and B compared to modern Egyptians, and that practically all the maternal lineages are African.

Another discussion:

"Egyptian Old Kingdom and New Kingdom Ancient DNA results":

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008622;p=1

 

[Tomenable]

Isn't R1b more likely the PIE Haplogroup from our knowledge now?

We have only eastern branch of R1b (so-called ht35) in Yamnaya folks. So far there is only evidence of Z2103 and L23* in Yamnaya. But we now have a controversial R1b-M269 from Iberia, which is older than IE migration to Iberia (individual ATP3 who lived ca. 3516 - 3362 BC).

Please tell me exactly which R1b subclades are PIE according to you ???

Certainly not all of R1b is Indo-European - are you claiming, that Neolithic V88 is Indo-European too? Ancient Egyptians were not IE.

Another thing - why do you think that PIEs had only one haplogroup?

We already have one I2a2a1b1b2 sample from Yamnaya, which shows that Yamnaya folks were not limited to just R1b. And when it comes R1b, to be honest - we do not have any L51 or P312 from Yamnaya. Most of Yamnaya R1b found so far is Z2103, the rest is L23*. All of it is L51- (negative). So what evidence do we have that L51 or P312 was in Yamnaya? No evidence. But there is evidence that some I2a2a1b1b2 was there.

So far Yamnaya Y-DNA does not look like it could be ancestral to R1b-L51. Rather, it looks like a related cousin branch.

At the moment, things look like this for Yamnaya (Y-DNA: R1b-Z2103 + I2a2a1b1b2 + R1b-L23*):

http://s23.postimg.org/sctmrpp7f/Yamnaya.png

 

[Tomenable]

Oh, what makes M417 Indo-European and not it's ancestors M17 or even M20?

M17 (M198) could be Indo-European as well, but older subclades - rather not.

Hunter buried in Karelia belonged to R1a1* and I don't think that he spoke IE.

I also don't think that any branch of R1b older than M269 was Indo-European.

And even in case of M269 it isn't certain if it was exclusively spread by PIEs.

See for example this controversial M269 from Iberia (ATP3), too old to be IE.

 

[Goga]

M17 (M198) could be Indo-European as well, but older subclades - rather not.

Hunter buried in Karelia belonged to R1a1* and I don't think that he spoke IE.

I also don't think that any branch of R1b older than M269 was Indo-European.

And even in case of M269 it isn't certain if it was exclusively spread by PIEs.

See for example this controversial M269 from Iberia (ATP3), too old to be IE.

Yeah, I do agree on all these point with you!

But maybe is IE language a few thousands of years older than we think. We're still not 100% sure about the age of that langage.