J1 Sarmatians in Beslan

Map of the Sassanian Empire and it's Satrape. Look at which Satrape is located just next to Sakastan in modern Baluchistan. And beyond the eastern borders of the empire were the Huns( Hepthalites, Alchons, Kidarites and Nezak).

Sassanian_Empire_621_A.D.jpg



The modern Term Turk and Tur/an seem to have completely different origin and the association of both terms only started around the Islamic era, when the Turkic groups started to spil over to former Iranic settlements in Central Asia.

The first known mention of the term Turk (Old Turkic: Türük[29][30] or Kök Türük[29][30] or Türük,[31] Chinese: 突厥, Old Tibetan: duruggu/durgu (meaning "origin"), .....
Turkologist András Róna-Tas posits that the term Turk could be rooted in the East Iranian Saka language[47] or in Turkic.[48] However, it is generally accepted that the term "Türk" is ultimately derived from the Old-Turkic migration-term[49] "Türük" or "Törük",[50][51] which means "created", "born", ....
Click to expand...

Turk seems to derive from Türük-Törük what means "created/born" and seems to share some roots with Old Tibetan "Duruggu" what means "Origin".
 
Last edited:
from the Old Turkic word root *türi-/töri- ("tribal root, (mythic) ancestry; take shape, to be born, be created, arise, spring up") and conjugated with Old Turkic suffix (-ik), perhaps from Proto-Turkic *türi-k ("lineage, ancestry"),[50] from the Proto-Turkic word root *töŕ ("foundation, root; origin, ancestors"),[54][55] possibly from a Proto-Altaic source *t`ŏ̀ŕe ("law, regulation").[56] This etymological concept is also related to Old Turkic word stems 'tür' ("root, ancestry, race, kind of, sort of"), 'türi-' ("to bring together, to collect"), 'törü' ("law, custom") and 'töz' ("substance").[50]
Click to expand...


"Tür" still means in Turkish "kind of, type or species". Iranic Tur/an and Turkish Türk seems to have complitely different origin.
 
There still is the question of what happened to their y-dna.
I understand that folk can change its culture and ethnicity, but in cases known to me y-dna of old population survived in good % of new folk- i.e. East Prussian y-dna.
So, rather those Hunnic men (who incorporated former Sarmats) were killed off completely and massively? And remains pushed out of Europe into Caucasus for good.
After Hunns do we still have Iranians North or West of Black Sea?

Edit: maybe Euro Sarmats were already pushed out/killed off by Airmanareiks (Ermanaric) of Greuthungi before their comeback as/with Hunns?
 
arvistro said:
There still is the question of what happened to their y-dna.
I understand that folk can change its culture and ethnicity, but in cases known to me y-dna of old population survived in good % of new folk- i.e. East Prussian y-dna.
So, rather those Hunnic men (who incorporated former Sarmats) were killed off completely and massively? And remains pushed out of Europe into Caucasus for good.
After Hunns do we still have Iranians North or West of Black Sea?
Click to expand...

In Hungary as Jasz/Iasi (Probably descend of the Iazyges).
 
I spoke about Scythians appearing in History about the 7/6° century; in fact it seems concerning only their occidental territories; I'm not a specialist - in docs provided by Tomenable, I saw "Altai Scythians" since the 14° century: are we dealing here with authentic well determined Scythians on the archeologic ground or it is a kind of "proto-something" proxi? Were these "Scythians" already in a Iron Age stage? Thanks for correcting me.
 
There was no ri-l shift. If I remember correctly there was l-r shift in Iranian languages instead.
In early Iranian, Indo-European *r and *l had completely merged into r.

Wiki however says this:
"The various forms of Alan — Greek: Ἀλανοί, Alanoi; Chinese: 阿蘭聊 Alanliao (Pinyin) in the 2nd century,[11] 阿蘭 Alan (Pinyin) in the 3rd century[12] — and Iron (a self-designation of the Alans' modern Ossetian descendants, indicating early tribal self-designation) and later Alanguo (阿蘭國)[13] are Iranian dialectal forms of Aryan."

So, maybe it was Alans in some archaic IndoIranian dialect where *l and *r merger did not happen (yet).

Edit: sorry my last sentence is wrong, initial form had *r already. So, it is rather mysterious why they were Alans with l, if initial form was arya and post-Alan form (Ossetic) was ir/iron.
Maybe some other etimology is needed.
 
But I did not know that Alans settled in Orleans or Iberia. I wonder if their genetic traces in those lands can still be detected.
 
arvistro said:
There was no ri-l shift. If I remember correctly there was l-r shift in Iranian languages instead.
In early Iranian, Indo-European *r and *l had completely merged into r.

Wiki however says this:
"The various forms of Alan — Greek: Ἀλανοί, Alanoi; Chinese: 阿蘭聊 Alanliao (Pinyin) in the 2nd century,[11] 阿蘭 Alan (Pinyin) in the 3rd century[12] — and Iron (a self-designation of the Alans' modern Ossetian descendants, indicating early tribal self-designation) and later Alanguo (阿蘭國)[13] are Iranian dialectal forms of Aryan."

So, maybe it was Alans in some archaic IndoIranian dialect where *l and *r merger did not happen (yet).

Edit: sorry my last sentence is wrong, initial form had *r already. So, it is rather mysterious why they were Alans with l, if initial form was arya and post-Alan form (Ossetic) was ir/iron.
Maybe some other etimology is needed.
Click to expand...

There was an L-R shift from Indo European to Iranic tongues as seen on the word for light which is in PIE something like "LeuK" and becomes in Iranic tongues Roec/Roj/c/Ruc.

But you are confusing here something I think. I am talking here about an inner Iranic loudshift. Obviously Alan is a corrupted version of Aryan and loudshifted from this. Therefore it is an ir=l loudshift there. Just like there is an A=I (Aran= Iran) or e=a (Men=Man) loudshift in Persian. Those are inner Iranic loudshifts and have nothing to do with PIE = Iranic loudshifts.

Many words in Iranic tongues loudshifted back and forth. For example Avestab for "star " is "stara" as far as I remember. some Kurdish dialect (mine) has loudshifted this to "ster" which in fact is equal to the PIE root "ster" again. Simply coincidence and inner Iranic loudshifts.
 
Yeah, but then it shifted back to Ossetic version.. Too coincidence.. If Ossetic preserved l then no problem.
 
Can you demonstrate other words with ri->l sound shift from Alanic or similar dialects?
Because to believe it was one time happening in a dialect that went extinct (survived Ossetic has r)... Quite a stretch. This way one can explain anything!
 
I've some doubts about the Alan-Aryan connection (and what about the 'y' sound?) and onwards-backwards series of shifts in the same places, even if R/L L/R is very common in dialects - not to say it is impossible, only doubtfull.
 
MOESAN said:
I've some doubts about the Alan-Aryan connection (and what about the 'y' sound?) and onwards-backwards series of shifts in the same places, even if R/L L/R is very common in dialects - not to say it is impossible, only doubtfull.
Click to expand...

Actually you don't need to doubt it. It is a widely accept and established fact among linguists that Alan is a corrupted version of the word Arian.


You don't need to have many examples because this is an inner-Iranic loudshift. But actually there are some other examples of similar kind in West Iranic tongues.

For exmple in (mostly Persian though) the r or re/ri sounds shift to l. Like in the word Berez/Beriz what has it roots in "mountain" but becomes in "high" in West Iranic tongues.

Persian shifts it to "Boland", a Kurdish dialect to "bilind". Thats just one example from top of my head. As far as I remember there are more examples of r/ri to l shifts.

:)
 
The paper has a table with the samples and the cemetery section for the J1 samples says Beslan-k75 and Beslan-k36 I am sorry I assumed it meant Beslan.
 
The paper has a table with the samples and the cemetery section for the J1 samples says Beslan-k75 and Beslan-k36 I am sorry I assumed it meant Beslan.
 
Zakaryah said:
The paper has a table with the samples and the cemetery section for the J1 samples says Beslan-k75 and Beslan-k36 I am sorry I assumed it meant Beslan.
Click to expand...

SO is it not really from Beslan in North Caucasus? I heard there is a second Beslan city in Rostov province.

But it might be from North Ossetia. I am not sure which Beslan they mean.
 
Goga said:
Some folks don't like to hear the real truth. Ossetians are the modern descendants of the ancient Alanians, because Ossetians the only people in that region that speak also an Iranic language.

" Also, with respect to mtDNA, Ossetians are significantly more similar to Iranian groups than to Caucasian groups. It is thus suggested that there is a common origin of Ossetians from Iran. "
Click to expand...

you see what you want to see. It has nothing to do with truth, it's obvious. Such a nonsense statements.
 
Alan said:
To be fair Herodotus always said the Sarmatians came from Media, also to add more the Scythians worshipped the Gods of Nature while Sarmatians however seemed to worship the Fire/Sun. Both worshipped the Sky though. :) However I got your point, it's simply nonsense to speak about " EUropean" or "West Asian" in ancient times. I doubt that Sarmatians, Scythians or whoever would have fit perfectly in one of the both categories. I see them more like the missing link between modern North Caucasians/Tajiks and Russians/Ukrainians based on Genetics As seen on my map above. However I also think just like the Bronze Age Armenian sample the Medes and even Persians where slightly more Northern shifted like modern North Caucasians compared to modern Kurds and Persians.

I think all groups of the Northern Middle East are 8-15% Semite admixed, while ancient Iron Age groups would have been moe 4-8% admixed (from mixing with Babylonians and Assyrians). Than in more modern time came a second wave of Semite admixture with Arabs what probably doubled this numbers.

What is nowadays North Caucasus like must have been by Bornze and Iron Age East Anatolian, Mesopotamian, South Caucasus and Iranian Plateau like. Ancient North Caucasus was probably even more Northern shifted similar to Yamna samples themselves. Since Myakop, Yamna and Kura Araxes seem to form a cultural complex.
Click to expand...

What evidence do you have for Arab migrations post Iron Age(7th century AD) caused a shift in our genepool more "south"? Or rather added semitic influence. I've yet to see hard proof or evidence for this, only speculation.
 
Zakaryah said:
According to paper entitled. Афанасьев Г.Е., Ван Л., Вень Ш., Вэй Л., Добровольская М.В., Коробов Д.С., Решетова И.К., Ли Х., Тун С. Хазарские конфедераты в бассейне Дона // Тезисы докладов на Всероссийской научной конференции "Естественнонаучные методы исследования и парадигма современной археологии". М.: ИА РАН. 2015

Two Sarmatian remains in Beslan have tested positive for J-M267. There of course G2a and R1a remains as well. This is big as it is the first J1 Sarmatian/Alan, that I know of anyways. Exciting!!

The paper is obviously in Russian. I can not post the link as I have not posted enough. I can PM anyone the link to the original paper as well as a link to a crude translation I have made via Google. I have messaged one of the authors on the site and he tells me the paper will be published in a scientific journal the first quarter of next year.The author I messaged is named Gennady Afanasiev. Website Academia.edu you can find him and his papers there.
Click to expand...

I'm J1 myself, although 23andme problematically doesn't show my subsclade. I'd assume I'm J1-M267 since J1C3 would of shown up.
 
Also my problem is that there is a lack of archaeological evidence in relation to our ancient ancestors residing in what is today Kurdistan or surrounding regions, relating to the Parthians and Medes.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 82619 times.

Back
Top