J1 Sarmatians in Beslan

[AliShirwan]

As for me personally I'm still not sure of my J1 origins.

 

[Goga]

Also my problem is that there is a lack of archaeological evidence in relation to our ancient ancestors residing in what is today Kurdistan or surrounding regions, relating to the Parthians and Medes.

What do you mean? Even the most powerfull King of the Median Empire, Cyaxares (Hevexştre) was buried in Kurdistan, his native homeland!

What about all those ancient Median religious (Iranic) fire shrines in Kurdistan?

 

[AliShirwan]

What do you mean? Even the most powerfull King of the Median Empire, Cyaxares (Hevexştre) was buried in Kurdistan, his native homeland!

What about all those ancient Median religious (Iranic) fire shrines in Kurdistan?

Yet none of those Median remains have been tested or excavated

 

[Goga]

Yet none of those Median remains have been tested or excavated

No not yet.

But I'm sure their DNA will be resemble the DNA of the Kurds.


But what we do know for sure is that there are Iranid West Asian haplogroups among ancient Iranid people in Northern Caucasus.


Northern Caucasus Iranid people like Ossetians (speakers of EAST Iranic language, descendents of Alanians & Sarmatians) are still genetically very close to Persians and Kurds and share the same deep ancestry.

 

[Carl Graham]

What happened with those Sarmatians/Alans? Died off? Were killed off? Where are those J1 and R1a z93 in (East) Europe now?

Well 5500 of them were sent to Britain to be stationed along Hadrian's Wall , which is pretty much where all the J1 Grahams originate.The original J-BY89 signature which eventually became the Graham signature was Balochi in origin so you can see I might have reason to be interested in these ancient samples !

 

[Apsurdistan]

Shouldn't be surprising isn't the J hg in very high% in the north caucuses which is where the Sarmatians were.

 

[Alan]

Some more Sarmatian samples have been analysed. R1b has popped up too. So far Sarmatian/Alan Haplogroups seem to include G2a, R1a, J1/J2 and R1b.

Pretty much typical "diversity" you see in most modern Iranic speakers.

 

[johen]

Where did Sarmatian originate in? North caucasus or central Asia?

There was scythian-sarmatian sagart culture dating between 5 century BC and 5 century AD, which were widespread across the region from the Ural to the Ob river. Their cranial series are very close to Okunevo people in altai. As far as I know, Russian anthropologists have classified the okunevo people as archaic intermediates between caucasoid and mongoloid, but not now. The new research described them as “plesiomorphic”. looks like the sagart people were R1a people. Were they the original samatians or migrants?

The third cluster includes Early Iron Agegroups of Western Siberia, Neolithic groups of the Altai,and Okunev people of Southern Siberia. Populationsmaking up the third cluster are quite speci ¿ c rather thanintermediate. It is to this cluster that people buried onBolshoy Oleniy Island are the closest.
--
the third cluster presents a difficult problem. Of course, marked similarities between groups widely separated in space such as Okunev, Sargat,Ust-Isha and Itkul, and Bolshoy Oleniy Island should not be taken to imply direct migrations from southwesternSiberia to circumpolar Eastern Europe or vice versa.
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In our view, the results of the multivariate comparison, paradoxical as they appear, are not incidental. Rather than indicating direct affinities, membership of the third population cluster may reflect the retention of plesiomorphic cranial traits that were characteristic of an early stage of population differentiation in Eurasia. At least two supposedly plesiomorphic trait combinations peculiar to certain ancient populations of Siberia have been described. One characterizes the Okunev people of Southern Siberia

V.G. Moiseyev and V.I. Khartanovich
EARLY METAL AGE CRANIAFROM BOLSHOY OLENIY ISLAND, BARENTS SEA (2013)

To help unravel some of the early Eurasian steppe migration movements, we determined the Y-chromosomal and mitochondrial haplotypes and haplogroups of 26 ancient human specimens from the Krasnoyarsk area dated from between the middle of the second millennium BC. to the fourth century AD. In order to go further in the search of the geographic origin and physical traits of these south Siberian specimens, we also typed phenotype-informative single nucleotide polymorphisms. Our autosomal, Y-chromosomal and mitochondrial DNA analyses reveal that whereas few specimens seem to be related matrilineally or patrilineally, nearly all subjects belong to haplogroup R1a1-M17 which is thought to mark the eastward migration of the early Indo-Europeans.

September 2009, Volume 126, Issue 3, pp 395–410 Ancient DNA provides new insights into the history south Siberian Kurgan people

 

[MOESAN]

I doubt that most of Scythians, even the more eastern ones, could be attributed only to this "plesiomorphic" type of BI early Okunevo people (conservative archaïc form, pre-differentiation); Scythians I bet have more admixture; later in their moving towards West I think they return rather towards more 'europoid' types - for the Sarmatians supposed formation I've to read again a book which has been lent to me...

 

[johen]

I doubt that most of Scythians, even the more eastern ones, could be attributed only to this "plesiomorphic" type of BI early Okunevo people (conservative archaïc form, pre-differentiation); Scythians I bet have more admixture; later in their moving towards West I think they return rather towards more 'europoid' types - for the Sarmatians supposed formation I've to read again a book which has been lent to me...

of course, they would be mixed with the other tribes. By the way, where do you think was a sarmatian's birthplace? It seems to be sagart culture area.

Indo-European demic diffusion model, A ph. D dissertation(2017) by Carlos Quiles

 

[Alan]

of course, they would be mixed with the other tribes. By the way, where do you think was a sarmatian's birthplace? It seems to be sagart culture area.

Indo-European demic diffusion model, A ph. D dissertation(2017) by Carlos Quiles

It must have been East of the Caspian because even the Sarmatians show a little East Eurasian admixture and all their descendence do so too. Like the Ossetians. However I am not quite sure that we can talk of Sarmatians yet. Sarmatians seem to be the product of a Massagetae tribe moving into the Russian and North Caucasian Steppes and merging with incoming Median settlers. Sarmatians themselves show untypically strong signals from the Iranian Plateau that can be explained via Medic admixture.

imo Sarmatians = Massagetae + Medes