Origin of yDNA "I" Anatolia?

[Alan]

Now seriously After finding "I" sample in Neolithic Anatolian farmers. And earlier years finding "IJ*" on the Iranian Plateau.

Is this the ultimate proof that "I" is indeed connected to UHG/WHG like ancestory which some of it spred out in West Eurasia around Paleolithic. While the groups remaining at home in the Near East merged with "Basal Eurasian" during the Neolithic and became the Neolithic farmers and spred out with a second wave from Anatolia?

I am pretty convinced by this theory now and the reason why the Balkans are so diverse in "I" can be explained with the fact that it is like a refugium to the earliest out of Anatolia waves. And in Anatolia and near by regions it was mostly washed out by other incoming waves and the expansion of the brother yDNA "J"

 

[bicicleur 2]

I is 42000 years old and TMRCA is 27000 years.
Mesolithic Europe was >90 % I.

After LGM there was Magdalenian and Epigravettian in Europe, lasting till 12000 years ago.

(there was not only Italian Epigravettian but also Eastern Epigravettian from Volga river till Carpaths and even in Transcaucasia)

how could people from Anatolia have displaced these people during the mesolithic ?
how come there is so little of haplo I left in Anatolia ?
and what is left are not old clades ; e.g. I wouldn't be surprised if Kurdish I would be mainly steppic origin I2a1b2-L621 if subclades were tested
the I2c Anatolion neolithic was found very near to Europe in areas were people survived LGM

what about IJ* in Iran, is it realy IJ* or have subclades not been tested?

 

[Alan]

I is 42000 years old and TMRCA is 27000 years.
Mesolithic Europe was >90 % I.

After LGM there was Magdalenian and Epigravettian in Europe, lasting till 12000 years ago.

Good than the first expansion was earlier from Paleolithic era.

how could people from Anatolia have displaced these people during the mesolithic ?

Not displaced, I didn't meant that. I meant that the first waves of I Haplogroups started around Anatolian, not necessary in Anatolia. The "I" indicates the possibility.

how come there is so little of haplo I left in Anatolia ?

I think this the answer is obvious. The same way how there is so little G2a left in Europe. It was washed out by Southern and Eastern migrations.

and what is left are not old clades ; e.g. I wouldn't be surprised if Kurdish I would be mainly steppic origin I2a1b2-L621 if subclades were tested

Possibility is there but Kurdish I clades were not really what I meant. I was exclusively reffering to the I2c and I findings in 6500 BC Anatolian farmers!

the I2c Anatolion neolithic was found very near to Europe in areas were people survived LGM

Yet unlikely that it came via WHG as backmigration because Neolithic farmers themselves are made up of 50~60% UHG/WHG like ancestry. And David says he has informations that Central Anatolian farmers are identical to West Anatolian farmers also I am not aware of any "I" lineages in ancient European samples (there might be, but I haven't heard of any yet).

what about IJ* in Iran, is it realy IJ* or have subclades not been tested?

Yes it was tested for known I and J subclades but didn't fit any. It seems like a dead end IJ clade.

 

[sparkey]

Now seriously After finding "I" sample in Neolithic Anatolian farmers. And earlier years finding "IJ*" on the Iranian Plateau.

Is this the ultimate proof that "I" is indeed connected to UHG/WHG like ancestory which some of it spred out in West Eurasia around Paleolithic. While the groups remaining at home in the Near East merged with "Basal Eurasian" during the Neolithic and became the Neolithic farmers and spred out with a second wave from Anatolia?

I don't think there's a lot of "ultimate proof" of anything yet, especially considering that we don't know what SNPs tested negative for the "I" and "I2c" samples from Anatolia (unless those have come out?). They could very well be closely related descendants of a minor backmigration of I2c, which I've speculated before could be a relatively eastern subclade of Haplogroup I.

The "I*" and "IJ*" that have been found in 2 Persian speakers might tell us more, but they also didn't get quite enough SNPs tested, and few STRs tested, so it's hard to place them exactly relative to the rest of I. At least, they count as evidence that Haplogroup I may have formed in West Asia and entered Europe shortly after it did. But the best evidence for the timing of the entrance to Europe is (1) the dating of modern I carriers in Europe and (2) the most ancient Haplogroup I samples found so far in Europe. The Asian samples don't tell us quite as much yet (but I'm anxious for more studies!).

I am pretty convinced by this theory now and the reason why the Balkans are so diverse in "I" can be explained with the fact that it is like a refugium to the earliest out of Anatolia waves. And in Anatolia and near by regions it was mostly washed out by other incoming waves and the expansion of the brother yDNA "J"

The Balkans don't have nearly the diversity of Haplogroup I as, say, Germany or Poland, why do you think that they are a diversity hotspot? The I2a-Din that's dominant there is very young, and they tilt toward certain I2-M223 and I1 clades while those two are more diverse elsewhere as well.

 

[sparkey]

what about IJ* in Iran, is it realy IJ* or have subclades not been tested?

Yes it was tested for known I and J subclades but didn't fit any. It seems like a dead end IJ clade.

There were actually 2 results of interest. One was a Persian from Grugni 2012 who was recorded as IJ*, and one was a Hazara from Cristofaro 2013 who was recorded as I*. Both had some SNPs tests (but not as much as I'd like) and I think only the Hazara had any STRs done (but again, not nearly enough to say anything). I've explained before that these two individuals may actually be the same subclade of proto-I, see here.

 

[sparkey]

...also I am not aware of any "I" lineages in ancient European samples (there might be, but I haven't heard of any yet).

What do you mean by this?

 

[bicicleur 2]

There were actually 2 results of interest. One was a Persian from Grugni 2012 who was recorded as IJ*, and one was a Hazara from Cristofaro 2013 who was recorded as I*. Both had some SNPs tests (but not as much as I'd like) and I think only the Hazara had any STRs done (but again, not nearly enough to say anything). I've explained before that these two individuals may actually be the same subclade of proto-I, see here.

I wonder then were these clades might have survived LGM.
afaik nowhere in Transcaucasia, Iran or Anatolia

as I is some 42000 years old, and Gravettian entered Europe some 33000 years ago, with I1 split some 27000 years ago it would be logical to find IJ* (and J) outside of Europe
and yes, IMO I entered Europe via the Caucasus

 

[Yetos]

I don't think there's a lot of "ultimate proof" of anything yet, especially considering that we don't know what SNPs tested negative for the "I" and "I2c" samples from Anatolia (unless those have come out?). They could very well be closely related descendants of a minor backmigration of I2c, which I've speculated before could be a relatively eastern subclade of Haplogroup I.

The "I*" and "IJ*" that have been found in 2 Persian speakers might tell us more, but they also didn't get quite enough SNPs tested, and few STRs tested, so it's hard to place them exactly relative to the rest of I. At least, they count as evidence that Haplogroup I may have formed in West Asia and entered Europe shortly after it did. But the best evidence for the timing of the entrance to Europe is (1) the dating of modern I carriers in Europe and (2) the most ancient Haplogroup I samples found so far in Europe. The Asian samples don't tell us quite as much yet (but I'm anxious for more studies!).



The Balkans don't have nearly the diversity of Haplogroup I as, say, Germany or Poland, why do you think that they are a diversity hotspot? The I2a-Din that's dominant there is very young, and they tilt toward certain I2-M223 and I1 clades while those two are more diverse elsewhere as well.

I do not want to argue,
simply there is interesting group of I1 in S Balkans that is considered remarkable to area and very 'paleo', and it is comparable with Sardinia

 

[sparkey]

I do not want to argue,
simply there is interesting group of I1 in S Balkans that is considered remarkable to area and very 'paleo', and it is comparable with Sardinia

Have a link? Sounds very plausible.

 

[Alan]

I don't think there's a lot of "ultimate proof" of anything yet, especially considering that we don't know what SNPs tested negative for the "I" and "I2c" samples from Anatolia (unless those have come out?). They could very well be closely related descendants of a minor backmigration of I2c, which I've speculated before could be a relatively eastern subclade of Haplogroup I.

I personally don't think we are dealing here with a backmigration because a recent backmigration would most of the time leave behind traces of aDNA. However Anatolian farmers are basically 60% UHG/WHG like and ~40 Basal Eurasian. And those even the once from Central Anatolia as it looks like. So I assume, how I previously wrote with I Haplogroups, similar to R1, we are dealing with a Haplogroup that was once widespred from Iran all the way into West Europe. In the Near East it merged with G2a and became what is known as early Neolithic farmers.

The "I*" and "IJ*" that have been found in 2 Persian speakers might tell us more, but they also didn't get quite enough SNPs tested, and few STRs tested, so it's hard to place them exactly relative to the rest of I. At least, they count as evidence that Haplogroup I may have formed in West Asia and entered Europe shortly after it did. But the best evidence for the timing of the entrance to Europe is (1) the dating of modern I carriers in Europe and (2) the most ancient Haplogroup I samples found so far in Europe. The Asian samples don't tell us quite as much yet (but I'm anxious for more studies!).

This is also what I assume. Here is the problem why I think it is not very likely that I formed in Europe. The oldest branches of I in Europe are found iN Central Europe, while the close relatives and "parental" (not really more like uncle clades) are found in Western Asia. If IJ formed in Central Europe it doesn't seem very likely to me that I formed in Central Europe because if that was the case I would expect to find some IJ clades in Southeast Europe from which it must have ultimately formed. This is why the Central European subclades of I might represent a paleolithic/mesolithic/neolithic refugium.

The Balkans don't have nearly the diversity of Haplogroup I as, say, Germany or Poland, why do you think that they are a diversity hotspot? The I2a-Din that's dominant there is very young, and they tilt toward certain I2-M223 and I1 clades while those two are more diverse elsewhere as well.

My knowledge on this Haplogroup is limited. I am not an expert on yDNA "I", I seriously thought the highest diversity+frequency was in Ex Yugoslavian countries. I seem to have been mistaken.

 

[Alan]

What do you mean by this?

basal I or clades close to it.

 

[MOESAN]

@Alan
I know auDNA can be analysed in very surprising ways;
60% UHG WHG: I miss this study (as others): which is it? and what is UHG?

 

[epoch]

I am pretty convinced by this theory now and the reason why the Balkans are so diverse in "I" can be explained with the fact that it is like a refugium to the earliest out of Anatolia waves. And in Anatolia and near by regions it was mostly washed out by other incoming waves and the expansion of the brother yDNA "J"

But the first AMHs in that part of Europe most likely did not leave ancestors. See D stats of Oase 1, who lived around the corner, so to speak. Ust'Ishim is related to anything but Oase 1 when given the choice whereas Oase 1 can't be bothered to pick a side.

 

[Alan]

Garrick brought my attention back to this thread.

 

[Cip]

Hi! I realise the distribution of kurdish population is linked with a hi concentration of I2a1. I know that kurdish is a iranian language, but has some diferences, i found some similarities between romanian and kurdish that they don't share with other neighbors. Also the little that we know about dacian language seems to have similaritees with kurdish. Like deva (dacian word for city, village) - dewî (kurdish zazaki for village), germ (dacian for hot, warm, like in dacian city Germisara- hot springs) - germ (kurdish word for warm) and more...
I believe kurds have come to there present place from Dacia, todays Romania and Moldova. I dont know when and how. I suspect from north of the Black Sea and Caucasus.
I sow kurdish natives here, maybe you can help me with this theory.
Thanks!