Genetic History of Siberian and Northeastern European Populations

[arvistro]

@Arvistro "It peaks in Native Americans if I read that graph correctly."

Sure! But aren't Native Americans ancient Northeast Asians that are said to have ENA? In any way, at K=3, which is the East Eurasian v. West Eurasian level, Karelia HG is 25% East Eurasian.

At K=7 and K=8, East Asian of Karelian HG is divided in half between Arctic Eskimo ancestry and Amerindian ancestry.

Kristiina, let's not mix everything. East Asian and Native American are two different things. East Asians are like 100% ENA, Native Americans are ENA + ANE. I was making a post telling how one grandpa of EHG was East Asian (or cooking grandma for that matter) only to realize it was actually Native American thing, which can be explained by shared ANE ancestry.

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At K=3, looks like ANE is more of a yellow (East Eurasian) thing than brown (West Eurasian) thing? I see no brown in Native Americans? When Loshbour is almost exclusively brown? Alan, what do you think? Are ANE indeed the closest to WHG? If so, why it comes as yellow here?

 

[Kristiina]

Angela, in a way I am very excited about this American paleo-Melanesian theory and in the recent Ket paper there were exctiting haplotrees such as this:



I do not know what is the current state of our knowledge but I recently wrote a comment that summarizes what I currently think about this East West issue: “When we look at the big picture, we see that yDNA K comes from the ENA area, so that could explain the ENA shift of Europeans. At 40 kya Near Easterners were genetically very far from Eurasians such as Ma1 and Ust Ishim, so I think that at that time there was a divide between Near East/North Africa and the rest of Eurasia. (http://s28.postimg.org/wuj44klpp/Kos...shim_MA1ls.png) (e.g. ASI is quite close to Ust Ishim)

If Chinese researchers are correct in their claims that humans have an over 80 000 years long history in East Asia, ENA probably radiated to the west to a bigger extent than we now presume.

 

[holderlin]

That is true, we have Jomon like people who are East Eurasian but display Caucasoid features. But than this is why I don't understand why people are using some phsyical features in modern populations to pin point the origin of ANE. Why should ANE be East Eurasian just based on Mansi if on fst Distance and the origin tree ANE is brother to UHG/WHG?

Where is the logic? But than if you seriously compare EE with ANE and EE without ANE a trend Caucasoid trend among the ANE admixed groups get's visible. I don't think this is coincidence. And I also don't think ANE reprsents Uber Caucasoid features just like I don't think WHG does (but ANE even slightly less) Just that I think they didn't look EE.

This is why in the past I wrote that ANE probably looked like some Kalash individuals who display "pseudo" Amerindian featueres. At the end of the day Kalash have like 35-40% ANE. They have slightly less than Amerindians and Mansi but than their other part is mostly UHG like which is still closer to ANE than EE anyways. I don't know why they are often ignored in these kind of studies. And I bet my last money that ancient samples from the Kalash region and South_Central Asia in general, prior to the farming expansion will look predominantly ANE.


This is how I imagine proto ANE groups looked like. Kalash look pred. West Eurasian but display very typical "pseudo" Amerindian features.

Alan. I.....................this is a really wonderful post.

 

[holderlin]

That is true, we have Jomon like people who are East Eurasian but display Caucasoid features. But than this is why I don't understand why people are using some phsyical features in modern populations to pin point the origin of ANE. Why should ANE be East Eurasian just based on Mansi if on fst Distance and the origin tree ANE is brother to UHG/WHG?

Where is the logic? But than if you seriously compare EE with ANE and EE without ANE a trend Caucasoid trend among the ANE admixed groups get's visible. I don't think this is coincidence. And I also don't think ANE reprsents Uber Caucasoid features just like I don't think WHG does (but ANE even slightly less) Just that I think they didn't look EE.

This is why in the past I wrote that ANE probably looked like some Kalash individuals who display "pseudo" Amerindian featueres. At the end of the day Kalash have like 35-40% ANE. They have slightly less than Amerindians and Mansi but than their other part is mostly UHG like which is still closer to ANE than EE anyways. I don't know why they are often ignored in these kind of studies. And I bet my last money that ancient samples from the Kalash region and South_Central Asia in general, prior to the farming expansion will look predominantly ANE.


This is how I imagine proto ANE groups looked like. Kalash look pred. West Eurasian but display very typical "pseudo" Amerindian features.

OK, I actually hadn't realized that Alan's posts were actually just the starting point of where shit got real.

My understanding was that ANE was distinct, and then later mixed. And I know the stats are consistent with this. I guess I would say that I'm unsure where "mongoloid" phenotype came about.

 

[Kristiina]

This admixture run from the recent Ainu paper is interesting from the ENA perspective. It is interesting to try to trace ANE in these admixture runs as we know that Siberians and Arctic people are high in ANE. Yellow is Neolithic farmer ancestry which is absent in Ma1 and other ancient North-Eurasians.



(http://www.genetics.org/content/early/2015/10/20/genetics.115.178673.short)

 

[Angela]

This admixture run from the recent Ainu paper is interesting from the ENA perspective. It is interesting to try to trace ANE in these admixture runs as we know that Siberians and Arctic people are high in ANE. Yellow is Neolithic farmer ancestry which is absent in Ma1 and other ancient North-Eurasians.

View attachment 7471

(http://www.genetics.org/content/early/2015/10/20/genetics.115.178673.short)

Very nice, thank-you.

So, would it be present in everything except the yellow Sardinia/Neolithic?

 

[gyms]

http://www.genetics.org/content/early/2015/10/20/genetics.115.178673.short)?

Components
Red : 100% Sherpa --> mixed South Asian/Tibetan unified because there is no other sample with South Asian component to distinguish it.
Grey : 100% Ainou --> I am not convinced it is a pure old Jomon component. I think for a mixed old Jomon/East Siberian . This biases and underestimates their calculation of Jomon part in Japonese modern population who has got at least 40% of Jomon male Y-chromosome (30-40 % D2, 5-10% C1a1 and probably unknown O2 and N pourcentages already present in final Jomon)
Orange : 100% Indigenous tribes of Taiwan (Ami, Atayal) --> Old Austronesian component
Blue : 100% Chuckchi --> Old Beringian component
Violet : 100% Amazonian tribe (Karitiana and Surui) --> Amerindian component
Pink : 100% Papuan : Old Oceanian compoent
Yellow 100% Sardinian : West Eurasian component

We find the West Eurasian (yellow) component in:

- Without modern mixing in : Sardinian, Uyghur, Thai, Altaian, Mansi, Tubalar, Tuvinian, Kalmuk

- With full modern mixing (< 200 years) in : Aleut, Tlingit, Yukagir2, Even

- With ancient and modern mixings : Yakut, Selkup, Dolgan
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthr...General-Discussion-Thread&p=117285#post117285

 

[Dibran]

Since we are speaking about east Asian ancestry.A question about Haplogroups but first a little background. My parents are Albanians who lived in Montenegro. My fathers family tree reaches back at least 200+ years. My moms is just here say, great grandparents and what not, I know all of my relatives (there are way too many) I know I had multiple uncles from her side that disappeared during the Balkan wars. Anyway, I received my 23andme results yesterday. My fathers side is no shocker I am of the EV13 branch. However, My mothers side came out to be D4J! I know these Haplogroups reach wayyyy back in history and it really has nothing to do with any relative that I would know. however the only thing I know about this group is that it is of East Asian decent. Which is shocking to me, could this be a mistake? Thank you!

I don't think paternal and maternal haplogroups have so much to do with what your ethnic makeup is, so much as what it was ages ago. Autosomal DNA I would think is reflective of the ethnicities/heritage in your genes.

My paternal line is R-M512/R-M417 R1a1a1. I havent had a deep test done to determine which subclade it is. It is on the low side in Albania and Kosova, with E-V13 dominating. Proto-Albanians were most likely carriers of r1a and r1b and brought the culture from the steppes, assimilating the local E-V13 peoples into proto albanian speaking populations. Much like most south slavs dont descend from original slavs but from the assimilated haplogroups present there.

My mothers line was H11a. Can't say I have found much info on it or what its subclades are, but apparently very common in western europe. Basques, Scandinavians have some of the highest H11a. My mothers family is from Malesi in the Puka region, with origins from Cameria. My fathers family are from Martanesh in Dibra(Mat region) with origins in our family tree going back to Mirdita which isnt too far off.