E1b1b1 and J2 in Balkans and Italy

Sigfrido said:
Albanians were a center of world for much longer than the Italians, because they were part of the Greek-Byzantine-Ottoman empires for like 99% of their history.
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Prior to Rome it was Athens not Albania to hold the centre of culture and commerce.

I am just quoting Trombetta et al which confirms that the E-V13 migrated in the Balkans from Italy, where the GREATEST DIVERSITY OF E-M78 is found.

You either post a peer reviewed DNA paper to support your blabbling about "roman slaves" or just shut up.
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Its really not necessary to be nasty to debate and discuss something. It just shows frustration and insecurity nothing else. Can you quote where Trombetta et al confirms that E-V13 migrated to the Balkans from Italy? - Is this what you are referring to? http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2015/06/23/gbe.evv118.short?rss=1

The TMRCA of E-V13 chromosomes (8.1 ka; 95% CI: 5.6–10.8 ka) is consistent with a previous hypothesis about a post-Neolithic expansion of this haplogroup in Europe (Cruciani et al. 2004, 2007). Finally, the young TMRCA (3.5 ka; 95% CI: 1.7–5.9 ka) for the node separating the sequenced (former) E-M35* and E-M293 samples suggests a TMRCA for the M293 variant more recent than previously hypothesized using an STR-based dating (11.4 ka; Henn et al. [2008]).
 
Albania was part of various Turkish-Greek empires for 99% of its history. Of course Albanians did mix with every kind of slaves and foreigners from around the mediterranean.
 
Angela said:
Let's try not to live up to our avatar names, shall we?

Everybody's y lines came from somewhere else. The more I see of both modern and ancient dna results the more I'm starting to think that you're much better off looking at mtDna distributions than yDna distributions if you're interested in the autosomal signature of a people.

Be that as it may, if we're going to talk about the "E" lines in Europe, all indications are that it may have been part of the Neolithic, which largely arrived in Europe via the Mediterranean Sea. Even if it or E-M78 by some chance arrived in Europe (Italy or Balkans) directly from North Africa, it would still have arrived via the Mediterranean Sea.

It's also a mistake to think that every passing army or occupation force necessarily leaves a big mark even on yDna distributions, much less autosomal dna. Don't we know better than this after the papers of the last couple of years? Or are we going to go back to trying to find Ottoman lineages in the Balkans.

I would also suggest that you review some of the historical events to which you allude. I'm not going to correct all your mistakes, but just for one, many of Hannibal's troops were Iberian, Ligurian and on and on by the time he got to southern Italy. There's also no way that you could know who stayed and who left anywhere, after any occupation, unless you happen to have a time machine handy?
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The majority of E lineages are neolithic, I agree with that.Absolut Majority of E in Italy is E -v13 which is neolithic.
But Rome reigned for 600 yrs in the Mediterranean basin. So you can't deny this interaction could be part of Diversity of E in Italy. It is estimated that the whole known world that Roman conquered was 70 million people at that time. Now the same world is about 800 million.
Even if 100 soldiers of Hanibal stayed, they wold amount today to 12000. So, they have left their genetic imprint
 
Maleth said:
Prior to Rome it was Athens not Albania to hold the centre of culture and commerce.Its really not necessary to be nasty to debate and discuss something. It just shows frustration and insecurity nothing else. Can you quote where Trombetta et al confirms that E-V13 migrated to the Balkans from Italy? - Is this what you are referring to? http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2015/06/23/gbe.evv118.short?rss=1
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Trombetta et al claimed that E-M35* entered in Southern Europe directly from North Africa. E-V13 didn't come from the Middle East, so either it appeared in Italy or in the Balkans and since E-M78, the daughter clade of E-M35, has the highest diversity in Italy, it must have come from there.
 
Maciamo said:
E1b1b and J2 in Italy and the Balkans are quite different from each other. In the Balkans most E1b1b is E-V13 (except in Greece and Bulgaria), while in Italy all subclades are found: V12, V13, V22, M34, M81 and even the rare V65 from North Africa. The most common, although by no means dominant, type of E1b1b in Italy is the Middle Eastern (Proto-Semitic ?) M34.

Same story for J2. Italy has much more diversity, especially for J2a. In the Balkans, over half of the lineages belong to J2b, which .

Albania and Kosovo have particularly little diversity for E1b1b and J2 subclades: mostly E-V13 and J2b2.

One reason Italy might have such diversity is that it was the center of the Roman Empire and people flocked from all parts of the Mediterranean.
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In Bulgaria most of our E is E-V13!

Most of Bulgarian J2 is J2a, not J2b!
 
DuPidh said:
The majority of E lineages are neolithic, I agree with that.Absolut Majority of E in Italy is E -v13 which is neolithic.
But Rome reigned for 600 yrs in the Mediterranean basin. So you can't deny this interaction could be part of Diversity of E in Italy. It is estimated that the whole known world that Roman conquered was 70 million people at that time. Now the same world is about 800 million.
Even if 100 soldiers of Hanibal stayed, they wold amount today to 12000. So, they have left their genetic imprint
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ROFL


You must be kidding. Albanians have much more NORTH AFRICAN E-M81 than Italians, dude.

Italians have more E-M78 diversity and E-V13 IS A DAUGHTER CLADE OF IT.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
This means most Italy/Balkan split a very long time ago from West Asian E1b. My guess is the split occurred in the Neolithic or earlier(Mesolithic?). Maciamo has a theorizes E1b-V13 was picked up by Neolithic farmers from West Asia and is of pre-Neolithic origin in Mediterranean Europe.
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1. There is ancient E-V13 7000 years old from Iberia.
2. Each European E1b1b subclade is a different story, and there are several of them as Maciamo already wrote (though I don't understand why does he claim there is some other most common E1b1b subclade in Italy beside E-V13). You can't apply the same theory on more than one of those E1b1b subclades.
3. It has been a stereotype for a long time that E-V13 entered Europe from Anatolia but for me personally there is not one credible argument to support that. My view is that E-V13 TMRCA had lived in Europe and that the haplogroup expanded from inside Europe.
4. I don't understand why did you put E1b to West Asia.
 
Maciamo said:
E1b1b and J2 in Italy and the Balkans are quite different from each other. In the Balkans most E1b1b is E-V13 (except in Greece and Bulgaria), while in Italy all subclades are found: V12, V13, V22, M34, M81 and even the rare V65 from North Africa. The most common, although by no means dominant, type of E1b1b in Italy is the Middle Eastern (Proto-Semitic ?) M34.

Same story for J2. Italy has much more diversity, especially for J2a. In the Balkans, over half of the lineages belong to J2b, which .

Albania and Kosovo have particularly little diversity for E1b1b and J2 subclades: mostly E-V13 and J2b2.

One reason Italy might have such diversity is that it was the center of the Roman Empire and people flocked from all parts of the Mediterranean.
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Thanks for the info. So, V13 and J2b2 look like early arrivals in Balkans. What about E1b1b and J2 in other West Eurasians? Is there any high resolution J2a data?

Shetop said:
1. There is ancient E-V13 7000 years old from Iberia.
2. Each European E1b1b subclade is a different story, and there are several of them as Maciamo already wrote (though I don't understand why does he claim there is some other most common E1b1b subclade in Italy beside E-V13). You can't apply the same theory on more than one of those E1b1b subclades.
3. It has been a stereotype for a long time that E-V13 entered Europe from Anatolia but for me personally there is not one credible argument to support that. My view is that E-V13 TMRCA had lived in Europe and that the haplogroup expanded from inside Europe.
4. I don't understand why did you put E1b to West Asia.
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There's E1b-V13 from Neolithic Spain and E1b-M78 from Neolithic Hungary, but they were unpopular. We have dozens of Neolithic Y DNAs and only 3 are E1b-M78. Today they're more popular in Italy and Balkans. We need ancient DNA from south and east of Hungary or lots of high resolution modern data.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
There's E1b-V13 from Neolithic Spain and E1b-M78 from Neolithic Hungary, but they were unpopular. We have dozens of Neolithic Y DNAs and only 3 are E1b-M78. Today they're more popular in Italy and Balkans. We need ancient DNA from south and east of Hungary or lots of high resolution modern data.
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We also have a lot of Neolithic DNA from Anatolia and not one of them was E1b1b.
 
Sigfrido said:
Trombetta et al claimed that E-M35* entered in Southern Europe directly from North Africa. E-V13 didn't come from the Middle East, so either it appeared in Italy or in the Balkans and since E-M78, the daughter clade of E-M35, has the highest diversity in Italy, it must have come from there.
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Please, just quote were he says that



    • Cavalli Sforza says Haplogroup E1b1b1, mainly in the form of its E1b1b1a2 (E-V13) sub-clade reaches frequencies above 40% around the area ofKosovo.[31] This clade is thought to have arrived in Europe from western Asia either in the later Mesolithic,[32] or the Neolithic.[33]



    Battagliaet al Concerningtiming the distribution and diversity of V13 however,Battagliaet al. (2008)proposed an earlier movement whereby the E-M78* lineage ancestral toall modern E-V13 men moved rapidly out of a Southern Egyptianhomeland and arrived in Europe with onlyMesolithictechnologies.They then suggest that the E-V13 sub-clade of E-M78 only expandedsubsequently as native Balkan 'foragers-cum-farmers' adoptedNeolithic technologies from the Near East. They propose that thefirst major dispersal of E-V13 from the Balkans may have been in thedirection of the AdriaticSea withtheNeolithicImpressedWarecultureoften referred to as Impressa or Cardial. Peričicet al. (2005),rather propose that the main route of E-V13 spread was along theVardar-Morava-Danube river 'highway' system.
    Incontrast to Battaglia, Crucianiet al. (2007)tentatively suggested (i) a different point where the V13 mutationhappened on its way from Egypt to the Balkans via the Middle East,and (ii) a later dispersal time.



    Morerecently, Lacanet al. (2011)announced that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in aSpanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens testedfrom the same site were inhaplogroupG2a,which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not themodern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recentevents, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried byearly farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the WesternMediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age. This supports theproposals of Battaglia et al. rather than Cruciani et al. at leastconcerning earliest European dispersals, but E-V13 may have dispersedmore than once. Even more recent than the Bronze Age, it has alsobeen proposed that modern E-V13's modern distribution in Europe is atleast partly caused by Roman era movements of people.[86] (Seebelow.)


    Afteran initial focus upon E1b1b as a Neolithic marker, a more recentstudy in January 2010, looked at Y haplogroup R1b1b, which is muchmore common in WesternEurope.Mark Jobling said: "We focused on the commonest Y-chromosomelineage in Europe, carried by about 110 million men, it follows agradient from south-east to north-west, reaching almost 100%frequency in Ireland. We looked at how the lineage is distributed,how diverse it is in different parts of Europe, and how old it is."The results suggested that the lineage R1b1b2(R-M269),like E1b1b or J lineages,spread together with farming from the Near East. Dr PatriciaBalaresque added: "In total, this means that more than 80% ofEuropean Y chromosomes descend from incoming farmers. In contrast,most maternal genetic lineages seem to descend from hunter-gatherers.To us, this suggests a reproductive advantage for farming males overindigenous hunter-gatherer males during the switch from hunting andgathering, to farming"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe

    National Geographic:- Haplogroup E1b1b East Africa and Western Eurasia - e-m215 has spread among North and East African Populations, to West Asiaand eventually into Europe end quote.

    Aegean Immigration to the southern Levant:The Y chromosome patterns of contemporary populations offers a lens throughwhich to explore the possible demographic effects of the Iron Age I Philistines in the farsouthern coastal Levant. Apart from the J2a patterns listed above, previous studies showan Aegean focus for two non-J Y lineages: E-V13 and G-M527/L13. E-V13 has beenshown to have originated most probably in the Balkans circa 9000 BCE as a Mesolithicmarker, while G-M527/L13 arose somewhat later during the Late Neolithic Era in coastalWestern Anatolia (Battaglia et al. 2008; Rootsi et al. 2012). Both lineages track Greekcolonization events from present day Marseilles/Provence (Greek colony of Massalia) toGreek colonies in Ukraine and Crimea (King et al. 2011; Rootsi et al. 2012). We alsofind E-V13 and G-M527 among contemporary Palestinians and Druze from Israel (table1). This result suggests that E-V13 and G-M527 may track the immigration of Aegean........

    http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/...biol_preprints
    ​



 
Where he says what? The paper claims that the E-M35 arrived in Europe from North Africa and not from the middle east. E-V13 is the daughter clade of E-M78 which has the biggest diversity in Italy. So E-M35 from North Africa arrived in Italy, mutated in E-M78 and then mutated to E-V13 and migrated to the Balkans. That's the only logical explanation with the new data.
 
In my mind nothing is clear, except Neolithic or earlier arrival of E-V13. I doubt there's sufficient modern data that can clear things up. Ancient DNA from Central Europe and Spain doesn't tell us what was going on in Italy and Balkans from 6000 to 1000 BC. There will be new data coming from Greece ranging Mesolithic to Bronze age though. G2a peaks in Italy and south Balkans, and I'm thinking E-V13 and some J2 lineages might be from the Neolithic to. Then some arrived later and that most of the rest of their Y DNA is Bronze age IE.

BTW: Bronze age Hungary BR2 had J2a1 and Neolithic Anatolian had J2a. I'm pretty sure J2a1 is a popular form of J2 today.
 
DuPidh said:
The majority of E lineages are neolithic, I agree with that.Absolut Majority of E in Italy is E -v13 which is neolithic.
But Rome reigned for 600 yrs in the Mediterranean basin. So you can't deny this interaction could be part of Diversity of E in Italy. It is estimated that the whole known world that Roman conquered was 70 million people at that time. Now the same world is about 800 million.
Even if 100 soldiers of Hanibal stayed, they wold amount today to 12000. So, they have left their genetic imprint
Click to expand...


As Maleth has pointed out, each "E" lineage in Europe has its own history and migration path. I've always been of the opinion that E-V13 probably arrived in the Neolithic, but an arrival in the Mesolithic is certainly possible. Maciamo has always been of that opinion. I'm sure that as more ancient dna is analyzed we'll get closer to an answer. I fail to see what it matters when it arrived, other than out of academic interest.

I don't know when all the E-M81, which is present in Iberia, Italy, and the Balkans, by the way, arrived. I'm sure some of it arrived in the Medieval period but some of it may be even earlier in the Roman period or even before that. Any learned speculations on who brought it to the Balkans?

Please note I said "learned speculations". We don't pay much attention here to speculations of the type, "well, let's start with 100 of Hannibal's soldiers who survived and decided to "stay" (all of whom were apparently E-M81?), and I know none of them daughtered out, or died without issue, and I did the math and there must be about 12,000 men in Italy right now who are descended from them."

I'll say it politely. Wild, unverifiable speculations carry no weight here.

@Sigfrido,
Keep it civil or there will be consequences.
 
Sigfrido said:
Where he says what? The paper claims that the E-M35 arrived in Europe from North Africa and not from the middle east. E-V13 is the daughter clade of E-M78 which has the biggest diversity in Italy. So E-M35 from North Africa arrived in Italy, mutated in E-M78 and then mutated to E-V13 and migrated to the Balkans. That's the only logical explanation with the new data.
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"On the other hand, while there were apparently direct migrations from North Africa to Iberia andSouthern Italy (of people carrying E-V68*, E-V12, E-V22, and E-V65), the majority of E-M78 lineages found in Europe belong to the E-V13 sub-clade which appears to have entered Europe at some time undeterminded from the Near East, where it apparently originated, via the Balkans"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#Origins

Now you are free to believe whatever tickels your fancy
 
Sigfrido said:
Where he says what? The paper claims that the E-M35 arrived in Europe from North Africa and not from the middle east. E-V13 is the daughter clade of E-M78 which has the biggest diversity in Italy. So E-M35 from North Africa arrived in Italy, mutated in E-M78 and then mutated to E-V13 and migrated to the Balkans. That's the only logical explanation with the new data.
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It would mean that Africans actually came from Africa to Italy and from Italy back to North Africa and from North Africa to Balkans. . it is not possible...too much water barriers 14,000 years ago...

http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-M78/

Kenyans come from Italy ..hahaha
 
hrvat22 said:
It would mean that Africans actually came from Africa to Italy and from Italy back to North Africa and from North Africa to Balkans. . it is not possible...too much water barriers 14,000 years ago...http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-M78/Kenyans come from Italy ..hahaha
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My mistake.Both E-M78 and E-M35 migrated from Africa to Italy, but they were already present in Africa.
 
Maleth stop quoting stuff from 2004.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml

"It has usually been assumed among academics that E-V13 and other E1b1b lineages came to the Balkans from the southern Levant via Anatolia during the Neolithic, and that the high frequency of E-V13 was caused by a founder effect among the colonisers. This theory has it that E1b1b people were associated with the development of Neolithic lifestyle and the advent of agriculture in the Fertile Crescent and its earliest diffusion to Southeast Europe (Thessalian Neolithic) and Mediterranean Europe (Cardium Pottery culture). The only concrete evidence for this at the moment is the presence of the E-V13 subclade, commonest in the southern Balkans today, at a 7000-year old Neolithic site in north-east Spain, which was tested by Lacan et al (2011). However, since E1b1b has not been found in any of the various Neolithic sites from the Balkans and Central Europe, it is more likely that the Catalan E-V13 individual was descended from Mediterranean Mesolithic hunter-gatherers.This alternate hypothesis is that E-V13 migrated directly from North Africa to southern Europe, crossing the Mediterranean from Tunisia to Sicily, then to Italy and to the southern Balkans. This scenario would explain why E-V13 reaches its peak frequency just on the opposite side of the Strait of Otranto from Italy, i.e. in Albania (+ Kosovo) and Thessaly.During the Ice Age, Malta, Sicily and mainland Italy formed a single land mass and the coast of North Africa was approximately half the distance it was today, making Sicily visible from Tunisia. Considering that Homo sapiens managed to get all the way to Australia by boat between 70,000 and 40,000 years ago, crossing the Strait of Sicily, perhaps via the small island of Pantelleria halfway, would have posed no major problem. In fact, it is almost certain that humans crossed that strait numerous times during the Stone Age.Other subclades of E-M78 also present in North Africa and Europe today, like V12, V22 and V65, could also have crossed alongside V13. It is perhaps only due to a founder effect that V13 became considerably more common than other subclades in Europe, especially in the Balkans and eastern Europe. The greatest diversity of E-M78 subclades in Europe is actually found in Iberia, Italy and France, and not in the Balkans (where nearly all E1b1b are V13)."
 
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